| Author | Message | ||
     Cycledoc59 |
It seems the 1125 is not the only bike with similar charging problems, and similar solutions. Below are links to quite complete information, including x-rays of a failed rectifier-regulator (R/R), alternative R/R sources, schematics, photos, and more.... Most stator failures appear to be the result of poor connections between the R/R and the stator, or bad ground connections, or a failed R/R My bike ('08 1125R) has 11K miles with no charging problems-yet. But today I replaced the R/R with an FHO14AA from an '07 Honda; just in case. On removal I noticed that the original R/R is stamped "Ducati".....so at the Ducati shop this afternoon I ask about failures and get a repeat of paragraph two, above. Here are the links: http://faq.f650.com/FAQs/VoltageRectifierFAQ.htm http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php? t=211850 | ||
| Dannybuell |
nice to read thx | ||
| Tpoppa |
08's don't seem to have the charging issues of the 09s. Some here have already fitted MOSFETs to their 09s. I believe they removed the charging harness upgrade in the process. I have yet to see any long term results. Has anyone fitted a MOSFET to an 09 WITH the harness upgrade? (Message edited by tpoppa on April 13, 2011) | ||
| Cycledoc59 |
Could it be that the '09 uses the same maybe barely adequate R/R that's in the '08? And that the increased output of the '09 stator damages the R/R, thus burning out the stator? All it takes to burn out a three-phase stator is loss of one leg, "single phasing" the stator, which overloads the still-connected windings..... | ||
| Froggy |
The 08 and 09 use the same regulator, but it isn't inadequate. | ||
| Finedaddy1 |
Cycledoc59- I do believe you have nailed it! After reading MANY other forums and talking to people in this field of business, this is the conclusion that I have come to. If you guys are down on this stator thing just jump over to some Aprilia forums, it is pretty bad. | ||
| Dirty_john |
My09 1125R has the harness upgrade and an FH012AA reg/retifier fitted and all is well so far with slightly higher voltages seen on the IC and no issues of low battery voltage etc even in slow moving stop/start urban use. I reported that the OEM reg/rec was made by Ducati Electronica some time ago - refer to earlier posts if you are interested. It would be interesting to see if Ducati use the reg/rec made by their Electronica division or use a third party unit on their bikes given that there are instances of issues like this on quite a few models across the various manufacturers. We 1125R/CR owners are not unique is this but 08 owners seem to be having an easier time due to the lower stator output. We are told that it is a heat issue which affects the stator windings and that the harness upgrade knocking out one phase of the stator under defined conditions is to offset this, hopefully putting a lot more miles on the bike this summer will test this theory. My bike is out of warranty now but I would like to know how the issue has been addressed in the Erik Buell Racing 1190RS. I still think we are getting a pretty poor deal from HD MOCO and that the whole charging system should be subject to a complete product upgrade regime. (Message edited by Dirty_john on April 13, 2011) | ||
| Cataract2 |
I just installed a Mosfet VR on my 08 1125R. Initial results seem good, though when the fans come on at idle the volts drop a bit on my LED volt meter. Will get a number reading on that one when I get the chance. | ||
| Tpoppa |
For you electrical engineer types: What, if any, issues would there be in running a MOSFET with the harness upgrade? Would their operation interfere with each other? Would it be redundant? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Since you called the EE types, I feel compelled to (again) point out that we are misusing terms. A MOSFET is a type of semiconductor, a darn nice one. It can be used to create a shunt regulator (like stock), a series regulator, or a switching regulator. I'm hoping what people are calling "MOSFET" regulators are true switching regulators, thats the best of all worlds. But they might be series regulators. Worst case is that that they are still shunt regulators. Point me to information about a specific one, and I can perhaps divine which it is. To answer the question, a switching regulator with the harness upgrade would be an excellent configuration, provided it didn't foul up whatever logic the factory used to decide when to drop a leg on the stator (and it probably wouldn't). Basically, the ECM would be deciding when the bike is operating in the "thermal risk evelope" for burning the stator leg with poor cooling oil circulation, and shutting off the leg when it is at risk. Meanwhile, the switching regulator would be harvesting every last possible electron the stator is managing to move and using it as available power from the bike. The Shunt and series regulators leave some available power on the table (any part of the waveform where the rectified stator output is less than the battery voltage isn't available to the bike to charge the battery or power accessories). So I think it would work great. Dropping the leg would protect the vulnerable winding from overheating, and while that is happening, the switching regulator is making better use of the diminished power available to try and keep the battery from discharging. That's my 5 minute analysis anyway. You get what you pay for.  (Message edited by reepicheep on April 13, 2011) | ||
| Catalan42 |
My 2008 1125R is bone stock, but is having charging issues. If using high beams, the battery will run down to 11 volts in 30 minutes, which causes very erratic throttle control (presumably due to under-voltage TPS). I'll be taking it in for warrantee service soon. If they can't fix it right, I may be going with the stator rewind and R/R upgrade just like all the 2009 bikes! | ||
| Tpoppa |
Reep, Good stuff, thx. As far as specific regulators, Shindengen FH012AA http://www.shindengen.com/content.cfm/regulator_re citifers | ||
| Cycledoc59 |
If an R/R is shunt type, I believe the output, as seen on a connected meter, is steady, since output is limited to a set value, and the rest is bled off...? And if the R/R is a switching type, the voltage fluctuates; as from maybe 13.6 to 14.2 or so, then back to 13 something..? If so, the FH014AA, used on late R1 bikes and others is a switching type. The R/R I just installed is from an '07 CBR and voltage switches constantly from high 13s to low 14s, exactly as it should.... | ||
| Tpoppa |
Kits are available if you want to go this route. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SHINDENGEN-MOSFET-F H012AA-REGULATOR-RECTIFIER-KIT-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ hashZitem53e70b7658QQitemZ360358573656QQptZMotorcy clesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories now, does anyone know the type of connectors that are on the OEM regulator? or, better yet does anyone know where to get them? (Message edited by tpoppa on April 13, 2011) | ||
| Kinder |
^ FWIW that one is a shunt style. | ||
| Tpoppa |
According to their website, the FH012AA is MOSFET. | ||
| Finedaddy1 |
In the works. It's a series type voltage regulator made by Compufire, I'm almost done with the installation and I'll post up when complete.  | ||
| Kinder |
Tpoppa: as has been posted MOSFET is a type of semiconductor not a style of R/R. So can someone list some switch style regulators? (Message edited by kinder on April 14, 2011) | ||
| Ohsoslow |
this is kind of an out of the box kind of a question. does anyone know what kind of oil temps these bikes run? is there lack of oil flow through out the stator area? (im assuming not because the 08's dont seem to have the same issue). | ||
| Cataract2 |
Well, I noticed with mine that my voltage is nice and steady when in the 14s at speed and upper 13s at idle with fans off. When the fans come on it drops to the upper 12s at idle and mid to low 13s at speed. This is with the Mosfet VR. Anyone else who's done this see this? Mine is an 08. | ||
| Reepicheep |
You can't tell by the output voltage. Let me explain how each type of regulator works... 1) Shunt. A shunt regulator lets the input voltage climb until it hits the target voltage, and then pretty much shorts the input voltage to ground (but not the output voltage). You wouldn't think this works, but for an AC input with limited max current (like from a stator), it works pretty well. A shunt regulator is like a switch you can throw that is in parallel (i.e. across) the voltage inputs. 2) Series. This acts like a variable resistor that is in line with the power input. So when the voltage is low, the series regulator will drop just about no voltage across itself (it tries to become a zero ohm resistor). As the voltage goes up, the regulator tries to drop a lot of voltage across itself (it becomes a bigger resistor). So the series regulator (which is series) tries to drop the extra voltage across itself. This sounds like the most obvious approach, but it is really challenging because of the physics. 3) Switching. This is the really cool one. A switching regulator takes any voltage it can get (even 1 volt) and puts it into an inductive coil, which stores some energy. When you break the connection in that coil, the stored energy is released. It's like a spring. The cool thing is that by hooking the coil to the input, grabbing the energy, then completely disconnecting it, and connecting it to the output, where it releases that energy, you can get *any* output voltage (even more than you put in). Power is Volts times Amps, so it is constant, but you can input low volts and high amps, and output high volts and low amps. The power is constant, but you could input 1 volt at 10 amps, and output 10 volts at 1 amp. So a switching regulator can get 1 volt input, and output 13 volts. Because our stators put out a wave form ranging from 0 to 50 volts, and our batteries need 13 or so, 13/50's of our potential is left on the table... unless you have a switching regulator. They call it switching because of this "connect the coil to the input supply, get a charge, disconnect it and hook it to the output, and deliver a charge". The circuit has to be pretty complicated, but can regulate the output voltage by cleverly controlling the duration and timing of the switching. When I get into the "how", I can explain why shunt regulators are nice and cheap and pretty effective, and why switching regulators can be insanely light and powerful, and why series regulators are a problem for high power. | ||
| Cycledoc59 |
Cataract2 Having just installed one, and only checked it in the garage, I will connect a meter directly to the battery, tape it to the tank and go ride.... That will give me voltage directly at the battery. Might be awhile, as I have to finish repairs on a customer bike. I would expect it bump 14+, high beams on/fan on. We'll see! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Looking at: http://www.shindengen.com/content.cfm/regulator_re citifers I think those are all shunt regulators. All but the last probably use SCR's (Silicone Controlled Rectifiers), the last one (FET) is probably still a shunt, but uses FET's (Field Effect Transistors) instead of SCR's. Using FET's should let them shunt more power with less heat sink, but the control circuitry would have to be a little smarter, and the FET's are probably more expensive than SCR's of similar current ratings. | ||
| Reepicheep |
So let me talk a little about why the physics of a series regulator is tricky. power = heat. So the more power you dissipate, the more heat you are dissipating. For perspective, picture holding a 15 watt soldering iron, or a 100 watt light bulb. That's what a watt feels like, and even just 15 watts is serious business (see how long you can hold a soldering iron). Calculating watts is simple... volts across a thing, multiplied by amps (current) through a thing. So if I have a light bulb that is getting 13 volts across its terminals, and about .4 amps through its terminals, it is a 5 watt bulb. Here is the trick... if your voltage is really high, but your current is zero, then volts * amps is zero, and you don't have any heat you have to deal with. This is why your wall switch for your 1000watts worth of garage lighting is cool to the touch when the lights are off. 120 volts times zero amps = 0 watts. Likewise, if your voltage is nearly zero, but your current is really high, then volts * amps is still close to zero, and you don't have much heat to deal with. So again, your switch in the garage is still cool to the touch when it is turned on and running 1000 watts worth of shop lights. .01 volts (resistance of the metal in the switch) times 8 amps = about .1 watts. But if you let voltage go high, while current is high... the magic smoke comes out. So trying to drop just 10 volts while delivering 10 amps means you have to dissipate 100 watts. Think about where you could package a 100 watt lightbulb on a motorcycle and not melt or burn things... much less be able to get that heat out without destroying a regulator. Shunt and switching regulators dodge this problem by making sure they are switches that are always completely "on" (no volts, lots of amps) or completely "off" (lots of volts, no amps). Series regulators have to eat the heat. Cars get around this by using alternators with two sets of coils. Instead of using permanent magnets to create the magnetic field (like our bikes use), they use a "field coil", another winding, to create the magnetic field. They then simply change the strength of this field based on the power demands of the system, so they are only producing as much power as they need. One disadvantage of this approach is that they can't start themselves, they need an external DC power source (i.e. a battery) to create the magnetic field in the field coil that lets them generate power. A permanent magnet system will generate power from just mechanical energy, without any initial voltage input. | ||
| Syonyk |
My 2008 1125R is bone stock, but is having charging issues. If using high beams, the battery will run down to 11 volts in 30 minutes, which causes very erratic throttle control (presumably due to under-voltage TPS). Have you considered not using the high beams at low RPM? I have a bone stock 08 (charging system) as well, except more amps on the lights - 35W HID lows (should be about the same), 55W highs. If I run the highs in town constantly, it will drag the battery voltage down, and things get unhappy. As long as I turn the highs off when I get to a stop light, things are fine. I consider this a fair trade for not burning out stators every few months (at the rate I ride). I don't think it's worth considering a warranty issue. Stock, you've got 140W of lights up there with the high beams on... I've also added another ground line from the subframe to the battery, as the stock ground setup was a bit weak. This improved voltages by a few tenths - I've not seen under 12.2 idling with fans & low beams, and I used to get it into 11.9, sometimes 11.8 (where things start getting unhappy). I'm planning to do a regulator upgrade after reading this thread as well. | ||
| Cataract2 |
Syonyk, seems yours does what mine does then at idle with the fans running. | ||
| Rkc00 |
Well I have had the stator replaced on my 09 CR. It has just under 3200 miles when it went. The harness patch has been on it since about 600 miles. It has been in the shop at least 3 times in the last year for low voltage lights. The first time they tested it out they said that the stator tested fine. The only thing they changed out was the relay on the harness patch. It seemed to work ok for awhile. started to act up again with the warning lights and low voltage on the cluster. second time they could not find anything wrong. The third time it was in getting the clutch weep fixed. They went to start it when they were done and they got a low voltage light. They tested the stator and this time found all three legs were out of spec. They installed the new stator with what HD said was an upgraded stator, what ever that means. Have not had a chance to ride it much yet but so far no lights or low voltage. I need to take a ride thru the city to check it out and get it hot. When I went to pick it up the 09 CR I rode my 09 1125R to the dealer to drop it off for the same problems. When I got to the dealer the 1125R gave me a low battery light. Pulled the seat and found the harness patch wires burnt brown and the relay so hot it you could not touch it. The R has been in the shop at least 3 times for these same problems. First time a changed relay solved the problem for awhile. The second time they could not find anything wrong but gave me a new battery. This time all three legs of the stator were out of spec. The R has had the harness install since just over 600 miles. It now has about 5000 miles on it. What would cause the harness patch wires to burn up like that? I have seen one other person on here that had this happen. I think it was curve_carver. Need to call the dealer today to see if it is finished and find out what they changed this time. | ||
| Catalan42 |
Syonyk - This discharge problem with high beams is not just at idle, this is continuously riding at medium (4-6K) rpm. I would suspect from these symptoms that at least 1 arm of my stator is dead, and that the remaining parts are (barely) able to keep up with minimal electrical demands (I have no accessories on the bike yet). | ||
| Cycledoc59 |
Charging numbers with just-installed FH019AA rectifier/regulator: (original stator, original wiring, 11K miles) readings directly at battery terminals: With bike hot (190), fans running, high beams on: At 1500 rpm about 12.4 volts At 2,500 rpm, bounces from high 13's to about 14.2 volts | ||
| Cataract2 |
Cycle, that's what I'm seeing as well. This winter I'm thinking of pulling my stator and sending it off to Custom Rewind to get it beefed up. I know us with the 08's don't have the dead stator issue, but I just don't trust it that much to not cause me trouble. |
