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Oldfartracer
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2011 - 02:34 am: | 
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Ok guys I just watched a race on Youtube and it really sends me back to the old superbike racing of the early 80's. naked bikes given'er. Racings racing! Sorry if they screwed Eric! |
Jgarner99
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2011 - 02:55 am: |
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I agree with Blake.
Now, before everyone jumps on MY case, let me explain a few things: I have nothing against one-make series. I've also owned a few Harleys in my time, including a couple of Sportsters that were more tricked-out than the current XR1200X. But that was decades ago, literally.
For 20 years, H-D has been riding a boomer-driven gravy train. And that, my friends, is coming to an end. Yeah, some people will still want a Harley in 2030, but there won't be the mass association with individuality and virility that drove the great sales boom of recent memory. And unless they makes some major changes, H-D is gonna have a hard time surviving until 2030.
Yet, they've been given plenty of opportunities. Erik gave them a door into the future: With a chassis for the VR motor (but they blew him off). With his extensive work on the XL mill (though they hemmed him in). With the tuber and fuel-in-frame Buells (which they treated like poor cousins). With his race programs (which they hobbled). And finally, with the 1125 (which they murdered).
So, a year after spending millions to shove Erik's vision through the shredder, the MoCo suddenly discovers a budget for race promotion and contingency. Yeah, they're into it now -- just so long as it beats the same tired old horse....
But listen, just because you put jeweled suspension and sticky rubber on an outdated cruiser doesn't mean it's a race bike. I'm sure it's fun for the riders, just the same way it's fun to bang fenders with your pals at those 20-mph go-cart rides you find at boardwalks and midways. But neither of the above does anything to foster the next generation of Raineys or Spies.
So it is a canard, a marketing department ploy to convince those newbies and ignoramuses on the fence that an XR is a "sport" bike... when they actually had a REAL sportbike in hand, but didn't know how to wrap their shortsighted heads around it.
So they killed it, and decided to spend their money waving more ersatz in front of the hoi polloi.
The XR series is not so much about racing, as it is a desperate attempt to flog one more sales bump out of an old nag. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. |
Ratsmc
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2011 - 03:06 am: |
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It would be interesting to see a mixed XR1200/Ninja 250 series. |
Jgarner99
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2011 - 03:33 am: |
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Prolly about even on most tracks... |
Ohsoslow
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2011 - 03:50 am: |
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well they wont have to worry about traction or wheelie control......thats one way to keep it low tech......... |
Steeleagle
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2011 - 05:13 am: |
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Wow. Tough crowd here. To each his own, but I have a Harley and Buells and a clear conscience. A lot of stuff is being taken out of context by people posting here in order to bolster an opinion...throughout the thread.
Wow. |
Jgarner99
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2011 - 05:33 am: |
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I'll take that as a compliment. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2011 - 07:03 am: |
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So, a year after spending millions to shove Erik's vision through the shredder, the MoCo suddenly discovers a budget for race promotion and contingency. Yeah, they're into it now
Harley aren't the ones spending money on promoting or running the XR1200 series either in the UK or USA (clever marketing once more I think). In the UK Henderson Insurance is sponsoring the whole series and is supplying all the prize money etc. In the USA that job is being done by V&H, not H-D.
If you want to race in this series you still have to buy the bike from a H-D dealer and then buy all the bits and bobs from either V&H or Harris Performance to make it race series legal, so nothing is being handed out by H-D for nothing.
In the UK pretty much every team is being run or supported by a UK H-D franchised dealer, simply because they are 'encouraged' to do so by H-D UK by the simple expedient of witholding 'discretionary' discounts unless they run a team. The teams don't get direct support from H-D but it costs them if they don't run  (good marketing at work again).
They may not build a sports bike, but it seems they know a thing or two about marketing what they do build.
One of the most popular club racing classes here in the UK is for old fashioned MZ 250 two stroke commuter bikes. They are slow, old, noisy and unattractive but the racing is as close as you will ever see adn the crowds love it. As I said before, speed and power have little to do with good racing in a one make series. |
Hybridmomentspass
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2011 - 09:33 am: |
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"So, a year after spending millions to shove Erik's vision through the shredder, the MoCo suddenly discovers a budget for race promotion and contingency. Yeah, they're into it now "
No, they've been supporting racing for decades - been supporting drag and flat track for years. Cant comment much on road cause Ive just recently (past 5 years or so) gotten interested in it. But I do know they had the 883 class way back when and the Buell class (S1?). Yes, it was Buell, but considering who owned the company, I'd say they were involved.
Yes, Erik had a good thing going, and KW didnt like what he was doing, but thats one guy in the drivers seat, to hate the whole company for what he does/decides is childish.
Well Blake and the others that share similar thoughts - I hope youre all going to be very negative to guys like McFarlane and Higbee who have spent years racing buells but now do some time on a HD XR. I hope you all act like complete dickheads to them for supporting the Motor Co.
But Im willing to bet you wont say a thing about it.
Seriously, some of yall need to grow up. |
Ratsmc
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2011 - 10:04 am: |
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Oh, I hate H-D for many more reasons than just what they did to Buell.
If we are going to ask those who dislike H-D to grow up, how about we ask those who like the brand to do the same. If we can agree that the reasons for disliking H-D are emotional, we must also agree that the reasons for liking them are at least as emotional. Since H-D's primary product is a lifestyle, the reaction to that, both positive and negative is going to be emotional. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2011 - 10:31 am: |
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Owens (Hybrid),
You comprehend poorly, and your derisive personal commentary is way out of line. Either cease that, or be desisted. Final warning on that.
We are talking about road racing.
It wasn't just Wandell.
>>> the Buell class (S1?). Yes, it was Buell, but considering who owned the company, I'd say they were involved.
AMA Pro Thunder was not a spec Buell class.
Matt,
When Suzuki gets Yoshimura to sponsor their racing team, is it a Suzuki team or not? You think Vance and Hines is funding the entire series? Really? HOG is openly paying for Scott Russel to race in Daytona. I sure hope the Chief stays safe.
My distaste for the series is not that the racing won't be fun to watch. As you state, most any spec series will usually provide that. I have little interest in the machines, but I do know the racers, and the competition may be close, though Danny Eslick and Jeremy McWilliams ensured that it wasn't during last year's series. I need two out of the three (exciting racing, racers/teams I like, interesting machines) absent a distaste for the brand.
(Message edited by Blake on March 09, 2011) |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2011 - 10:55 am: |
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Bwbhighspl - I did a quick scan of the HBR article on the long term effects of short term emotions. As I understand, hair trigger emotional responses can stick with you and haunt you for the rest of your life. Amen to that brother.
My experience suggests that no researcher will ever see the interpersonal dynamic between the people involved. I have worked for two sociopaths in my life, almost twenty years apart. The similarities were absolutely incredible, misdirection, errors of omission, self aggrandizing, alcohol, attitudes toward women, divorce.... I am much happier in relationships with people who communicate in a straight forward and transparent manner. Sociopaths take their toll on folks with a low tolerance for abuse.
The dynamic here is more like pain or stress simmering in the background where very little input brings emotions to a boil. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2011 - 02:11 pm: |
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My experience is that trolls suck and harm the forum.
Pretentious pontificators are just bizarre and irritating. |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2011 - 02:24 pm: |
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straight forward and transparent!
 |
Hybridmomentspass
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2011 - 09:49 pm: |
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blake what did I say that was so bad?!?!?! this is silly, youre threatening to ban me? Over saying youre being childish in this thread??
I agree, people that love something JUST because of the badge on it is just as silly to me. You should like or dislike things based on what they are, not what name is on them.
As for the Buell race, I was talking about the Buell Lightning series, not pro thunder or whatever |
Jgarner99
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2011 - 10:13 pm: |
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>Harley aren't the ones spending money on promoting or running the XR1200 series...
I'll admit that I'm not privy to the exact inner workings of the XR1200 series. But at one time, I worked at a highly-informed level within the motorcycle industry, and I can guarantee you that no AMA single-make series gets launched without a serious monetary commitment from the parties that stand to benefit.
Not only that, but there is a lot of serious back-room and legal negotiating involved, all of which demands the well-compensated, full-time attention of higher-ups from the marketing and legal departments.
And let's not forget the contingency pay-out. If that comes from Vance & Hines, then they're only acting as an intermediary. Selling exhaust pipes doesn't give a company millions to pay in contingencies (but selling a motorcycle-cum-lifestyle does).
All of which is perfectly OK. That is the nature of business.
What DO I resent is Harley's two-faced hypocrisy: Their suddenly becoming interested in roadracing, and now promoting their supposed "sport" bike, after years of penny-pinching meanness toward every forward-thinking idea that Erik laid at their doorstep.
I don't hate, but I'm bitter. Yet my bitterness pales in comparison with that of H-D's directors, who are so stuck in the past that all they can proffer is neglect or scorn for anything "NIH" (Not Invented Here, with the "here" being Juneau Avenue). |
Rogue_biker
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2011 - 11:11 pm: |
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What DO I resent is Harley's two-faced hypocrisy: Their suddenly becoming interested in roadracing, and now promoting their supposed "sport" bike, after years of penny-pinching meanness toward every forward-thinking idea that Erik laid at their doorstep.
Agree with this 100%} |
Cowboytutt
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 09, 2011 - 11:28 pm: |
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I share the bitterness of you all towards KW and how he butchered Buell. Actually, as was pointed out, it started way before KW even came on board, but he was the final orchestrator of the Apocalypse. But I'm NOT so bitter that I wish the destruction of HD, the last surviving and oldest American motorcycle company. Its seems that many of you hope, even predict, that they will fail, and then you can sit back and say (in a glorious moment of payback!), see, I told you so!!!!!
OK, so if that happens, what then? Is that so great a thing? Now that your emotional need for vengeance is sated, what then?
I hope Harley can somehow survive and Erik Buell too. They were not a good fit from the start and Erik's lawyers told him that signing his agreement with HD amounted to "indentured servitude". But he made the deal with the Devil anyway and had to sign a waver with his own attorneys for crying out loud! Actually, Erik would probably not have had the capitol to create many of his innovations without HD's financial support including the Rotax engine.
It was a bad deal from the start. Lets move on now, and hope for the future of both companies. I hate to see Harley go under.
-Tutt |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 12:30 am: |
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Cowboytutt +1 |
Ratsmc
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 12:43 am: |
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I can say that as long as H-D sticks to the retro thing, I cannot wish for their success.
However, it they do something to actually look to the future and create a bike that is not a rehash of 60 year old technology, I'll be ready to stand by them.
I am friends with a former H-D engineer (laid off in the big cut) and according to him, H-D has the engineering capability) to produce a bike that could compete in WSBK. However, the marketing guys run the place and there is no room for opposing opinions.
BTW, the my friend is now working for NASA and didn't consider himself one of the top engineers at H-D. |
Ratgin
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 01:14 am: |
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Its an interesting street bike. I personally think it looks cool for an HD and it has a great engine for everyday life.
Also has the worst seat pan of any bike ive ever sat on. It is like sitting on a pair of roof trusses covered in vinyl.
The sharp edges on each side of the seat ensure your discomfort forces you off before you run out of fuel which considering the tiny tank is about 120 miles |
Jgarner99
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 01:20 am: |
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>It seems that many of you hope, even predict, that they will fail, and then you can sit back and say (in a glorious moment of payback!), see, I told you so!!!!!
Tutt,
I want Harley to survive. It would give me no pleasure to see ANOTHER American company go the way of the dinosaur.
But as I said, if H-D doesn't start making some serious changes, they won't be around in another 20 years.
Hang around with some teens and early-20s folks for a while. They're different. Sure, there's plenty who are interested in motorcycles; but what they want it to be, is like an ipod -- in other words, a tool, not a lifestyle. There's very few of them who would even consider changing a spark plug. They just figure, right from the start, that they're going to take it to the dealer. In exchange, they expect something a little hip or cutting edge or hyper.
The ones who are interested in Harleys are ONLY interested in old school stuff -- Shovel choppers, Sporty bobbers and the like. Those guys look at Wide Glides and Fat Bobs as "old men's bikes" and wouldn't ride one if you gave it to them.
Now, fast forward 10 or 20 years to the next generation, the ones who are being born today. They're going to grow up never knowing dial phones, film cameras, stick shifts, daily newspapers, America as the leader of the free world, clear-cut gender lines, or a time or place where you can't talk to anyone you want, or share your most intimate moments with anyone else on the globe.
The new generation will never, ever be anything like the boomers. They won't rediscover some nostalgia for WWII-era technology when they hit their midlife crisis. But even if, supposing they did, that would be 30-plus years from now, and what would carry Harley through that multi-decade lull in sales?
I don't have a crystal ball; I don't know where exactly the motorcycle industry is going to go. But I think the Japanese manufacturers are in deep trouble, too.
Part of my bitterness is that I WANT Harley to survive into the next century. Yet all I see are heads firmly buried in the past.... |
Oldfartracer
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 01:42 am: |
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Cowboytutt +2
OK gentlemen as a 53 year old with two fake hips and two bad knees and after sitting on the XR1200 at the bike show. If I could sell my 1125r for a decent price and find a cheap XR1200 I'd go for it. But only in orange. That said I come to this website everyday and the 1125r is the one bike that I have that I can not wait to get back on the road when the white stuff melts.
Yes HD f**ked Mr. Buell. Accept it. The buells were are as alien to the HD guys as a little green man. They just didn't get it. I would love to see a tape of how Eric convinced them to build the new motor. Actually I can't see how he did convince those morons to go for it at all. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 04:42 am: |
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When Suzuki gets Yoshimura to sponsor their racing team, is it a Suzuki team or not? You think Vance and Hines is funding the entire series? Really? HOG is openly paying for Scott Russel to race in Daytona. I sure hope the Chief stays safe.
I don't know the exact workings of Yoshimura Suzuki in the US, but certainly just because a team runs a Suzuki/Yamaha/Harley does NOT necessarily mean that they are supported directly or indirectly by the factory. There are plenty of large teams running bikes that they had to pay for from dealers. The best they could hope for would be a little 'racer discount' when purchasing their bikes. The rest of the budget comes from sponsors, paying riders or from team owners with deep pockets!
Jordan Suzuki ran the 'same' bikes but they ar not financed or supported by Suzuki ar they?
And let's not forget the contingency pay-out. If that comes from Vance & Hines, then they're only acting as an intermediary. Selling exhaust pipes doesn't give a company millions to pay in contingencies (but selling a motorcycle-cum-lifestyle does).
V&H are plenty big enough believe me! They sponsor many forms of motocycle sport and the XR1200 series is small change for them.
Obviously there has to be some manufacturer involvement at some level, even if it is just tacit agreement to allow the series to go ahead. In this day and age when racing is suffering from a lack of finance and sponsorship is very hard to find I think H-D should be applauded for a change simply by giving the various organisations the opportunity to run what is becoming a popular and well supoorted series both here and in the US.
Back in 2002 Buell were given the chance to run a one make Firebolt series here in the UK as a support race for British Superbike. This would have been a great opportunity for Buell but it fizzled out before it began simoply because Buell UK couldn't guarantee that the required amount of bikes could be delivered in time.
I would like definitely to see more diversity in the XR1200 series rather than having to use the same kit on every bike. If they allowed different exhausts/wheels/bodywork etc we and other small aftermarket companies might think of running a bike ourselves
We do however have our project XR1200 (now sold) running in selected rounds of the UK Thunderbike series this year, so at least one 'modified' XR will be racing outside the 'official' XR1200 series
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Hybridmomentspass
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 06:47 am: |
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Trojan - WOW!!! I like that a lot! like an old Cal Rayborn or something, very nice! |
Tippster
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 09:53 am: |
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RatsMC: I can say that as long as H-D sticks to the retro thing, I cannot wish for their success.
However, it they do something to actually look to the future and create a bike that is not a rehash of 60 year old technology, I'll be ready to stand by them.
Hmmmmmmmm.....
Didn't sell very well... |
Ratsmc
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 10:12 am: |
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I should have been more clear. I was actually talking about the the overall implementation of that technology and the styling associated with it.
The H-D engineer I mentioned earlier spent some time explaining some of the hi tech stuff H-D was using and some of it is actually up to date. However, the engineers are forced to find ways to hide it so that it doesn't interfere with the retro styling.
That retro styling is eventually going to kill H-D or at least turn them into a niche bike.
And truthfully, if using modern technology results in the performance of the Vrod, you are doing something wrong. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 10:38 am: |
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Cowboy T,
I'm NOT so bitter that I wish the destruction of HD...
Me neither. I do want the HDI board to understand my objections to their poor behavior and that of company executives at HDMC. I want them to understand that their behavior has lost me as a customer.
Actually, Erik would probably not have had the capitol to create many of his innovations without HD's financial support including the Rotax engine.
That is a huge assumption. H-D was not the only corporation interested in Buell Motor Company. Who's to say that had he chosen a different route, we'd not have seen his efforts bear even bigger fruit and much, much sooner?
The next ten years may tell us the answer. The current 1190RS for instance is the bike he designed some twenty years ago. It was H-D who prevented its realization, first by taking the engine and turning it into a overweight cruiser lump, second by denying him the freedom to enter the open class superbike motorcycle market, mandating instead that he stick to designing "gentlemens' motorcycles."
I'm sure happy to have the Cyclone and the Uly though.
I'll say one thing--this may shock some--I would think MUCH better of H-D if they were to resurrect at least some of the air-cooled Buells, even if they rebadged them as H-D. What they did to Buell and especially the way they did it was despicable and shameful, but even more shameful is to do away with such wonderful motorcycles, erasing the genius and incredible efforts, successful efforts of so many people, for what? |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 10:42 am: |
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I mean the above from a business standpoint just as much as an ethical one. |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 10:55 am: |
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>>>>That is a huge assumption
An inaccurate. |
Buellmojo
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 12:27 pm: |
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"Didn't sell very well..."
Over 50,000 VRSC's since 2002?
That seems like quite a few to me, considering what the usual Harley Davidson shopper is looking for in a motorcycle.
I am not an HD fan, but I would own both a V-Rod Muscle, or an XR1200X for the right price.
(Message edited by buellmojo on March 10, 2011) |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Thursday, March 10, 2011 - 01:27 pm: |
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Oldfartracer - the 1125 is testing your core hip and knee strength. |
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