| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
Man, wasn't it cool for a few days there after the 1190RS was released where the winter flame matches just completely disappeared from Badweb? Hopefully Erik Buell Racing will release some more pics or specs or a list of authorized dealers or photos of the non-carbon fiber version or they'll announce they've sold the first few and the bike is now being homolgated or SOMETHING will happen to divert us back to talking about how cool Buells are. I'm just sayin'... | ||
| Cataract2 |
Wonder if we can fit the ducts. | ||
| Blake |
I like what Steve had to say. From Geoff's point of view, having a lightweight ZTL system that works consistently on the toughest AMA tracks from beginning to end is the achievement, particularly when you consider the top speed of this machine is likely to push 200 mph on some tracks, and its brake system is dumping about 60 percent more energy than a stock 1125R and its brake system would if ridden equally hard. Meanwhile, Geoff has been able to keep front end traction over sections of the track where competing bikes are losing it, and that has a lot to do with the unsprung weight advantage of the ZTL system. Every system has trade-offs; Erik is making the ones that will win races and provide better handling whether you're on the brakes or not. Also, by building something that will work in these incredibly tough track environments for some of the world's best riders, he's providing street riders with a lot of margin in their brake system. This really is a case of racing improving the breed. Pretty darn amazing for Erik and associates to go from ZTL-1 to the latest superbike spec system in just three short years. Seems some don't care to recognize any of that. Nor the Daytona Sport Bike championship. Nor the Pegasus Racing Team's German Twins Championship nor their 1190RR win in Open Superbike. People are funny. The past is gone but has been highly valuable for ongoing development of the ZTL system, one that continues to evolve and improve almost literally day by day. The past is gone, but the future is bright. | ||
| Gsxrguy |
If you keep saying "ztl" harley is going to sue you. It is ground off of the caliper on the 1190rs | ||
| Jdugger |
> It is ground off of the caliper on the 1190rs You sure? in the pic that starts this thread you can just start to make out the 'Z'. | ||
| Jdugger |
> Wonder if we can fit the ducts. There are existing after market ducts available now if that's your concern. Are your rotors discolored from heat? If not, save your money. | ||
| Jdugger |
I would like to better understand this statement: "and its brake system is dumping about 60 percent more energy than a stock 1125R and its brake system would if ridden equally hard" | ||
| Blake |
(202mph/160mph)2 = 1.60 (60% greater energy) | ||
| Jdugger |
Ok, so he's just making a comment from the standpoint the 1125RR/1190 are going faster on some tracks? | ||
| Blake |
E=1/2mV2, so if the mass is about the same, the different energies dumped into the brake system can only be due to different speeds of the two bikes. So that's what I figure, yeah. Since wind braking effect at 202 MPH is probably a significant factor, that may be just a bit on the high side, but surely ball-park. | ||
| Steve_a |
"and its brake system is dumping about 60 percent more energy than a stock 1125R and its brake system would if ridden equally hard" Blake answered the question above; I wrote this while he wrote his response. That's just from the ratios of top speed of the two machines on a fast race track, and is a very rough number. Kinetic energy, which is what the brake system has to shed, is proportional to mass linearly, and to velocity squared. But it's more complicated than that when comparing bikes on a track, because a lighter bike will also accelerate harder and reach a higher speed at every opportunity -- that is, the peak kinetic energy on the short straights for the lighter bike will be about the same as a slightly heavier bike with the same horsepower, the speed improvement making up mostly for the lost weight. Add more power, and the energy going into the brake system increases because of quicker acceleration and higher speeds. Put on a faster rider, and it both increases and decreases; he carries more speed through the turns, reducing the amount of braking done at the end of each straight, but he uses that corner speed to go faster on each straight; the net effect may be an increase in brake energy, though some slow riders can manage to put a lot of energy into the brakes by slowing much more than needed for corners. And, finally, improve the aerodynamics, and you really screw the brake system. You reach higher speeds and the brakes do more work in stopping; aerodynamic braking for turns like turn 1 at Daytona is very significant. In any case, the point being made was that a 25 percent increase in top speed yields roughly a 60 percent increase in energy that the brakes have to dispose of. At one time, Buell Motorcycle Company could have given you a pretty exact number for any specific track of the energy put into the brake system during a lap because of a very elegant simulation program written by John Fox, now an engineer at Erik Buell Racing. (Message edited by steve_a on February 24, 2011) | ||
| Jdugger |
> Since wind braking effect at 202 MPH is probably a significant factor I discount it for a completely different reason, a non-engineering one: With the exception of TWS, no track in Texas is that fast. The country-club tracks we tend to ride and race around here are relatively tight and quite significantly slower tracks. So, if he's referring to top speed (or average speed delta coming into corners, more applicably), it's basically down to the difference between a stock 1125r and something like the BMW which would be comparably powered to the 1190rs. That difference isn't that much on TX tracks (in terms of MPH), honestly, and is going to be totally rider dependent, anyway. | ||
| Blake |
What do you reckon you are hitting at TWS coming down the main straight before breaking for the infield turn 1? | ||
| Pmjolly |
His collar bone.  I'm sorry, I really couldn't resist. I hope you heal up quickly! I know it's not fun. | ||
| Green1 |
I like the new duct as well  | ||
| Jdugger |
> What do you reckon you are hitting at TWS coming down the main straight Having not been on TWS with this bike, I don't know. And, having wadded myself up at MSRH last weekend, I'll miss the early-April race there this year. Based on friends and fellow racers of similar skill level, I'd guess 150-160. Of course, turn 1 isn't that tight and you aren't really hard on the brakes, either. ECR is the second fastest (in terms of top speed) track I know of in Texas. Down the back straight, I'm getting to a GPS-confirmed 135 on my fastest laps. This terminates in a braking zone that gets the bike down to about 50 MPH or so for a hard, off-camber left -- it's one of those "rear wheel off the ground" experiences for sure. MSRH has a fast section, and I certainly saw some 120s, maybe a 130... (I'd have to look at the Telemetry to confirm) but it doesn't have the balls-in-your-stomach braking of ECR. I'd sure like to try the 1190 braking bits on my bike, as because of the nature of my home track I can really put a lot of heat into a brake system. Surely not like Geoff, but certainly enough to wear out a lot of brake components at replacement rates way, way high higher than we see on our endurance bike, and it sees more track hours. I have a vested interest in the Buell system and improvement, as my brake system cost per lap is quite high, and I like racing the 1125r. I am going through pads roughly every two front tires. And, I appreciate your spirit for the Buell brand, but I do think you have the wool over your eyes on this one regarding the ZTL's whole-picture competitiveness, in particular heat dissipation. There's too much consistent, practical experience around it in the Buell racing community to consider otherwise. If you would come out to ECR for a few track days, and get your times down into the 2:10 or better range, I think you would start to have the same experiences Ysracer and I have had with the system. It does have some disadvantages... For comparison, a 2:10 at ECR is relatively slow, and can be expected to be achieved by a slower "fast group" rider. The track record is 1:45, a typical club racer expert is under 1:55, and many are under 1:50, and a mid-pack novice is about 2:00. My personal best is a 1:58. Yes, I fully anticipate you to start experiencing the braking system issues we are describing some THIRTY-FIVE SECONDS per lap off the record of a 2.5 mile track. Again, that offer stands: Track day on a private member weekend is on me. This is the closest track to your home, and it's one of Texas' best facilities for motorcycle road racing. You would enjoy a private member day, around 3-hours of on-track time in 30-minute sessions (if you can take it!), and probably only 5-10 other bikes there, so a basically empty track. | ||
| Jdugger |
> His collar bone. No doubt. I had a (single) buddy crash in Turn 1 a couple years ago. Broken wrist. Another buddy looked at him and said "How's that affecting your sex life?" | ||
| Xoptimizedrsx |
the ducts m1+v1(m2+v2)before=m1+v1(m2+v2)after cant be any different... with that stated I=1/2MR^2 on diameter but I=MR^2 on a hoop IE (wheel) therefore a solid wheel will roll faster (spin Up more quick) than a hoop style(why not go with solid super light wheels then for road racing on Motorcycles.). That's why the Superfast Cycling guys use those solid type bicycle wheels of same mass they just get up to speed more quick. take into account the tire M at the outside and with Angular momentum as A=mvr... bad combo on actual spinning it up speed.Physics laws in nature, not my stuff, it is what it is. The breaking power is P=W/t which relates to KE=1/2MV^2 totaling to the work~Delta KE confusing huh... you then take its Tangential speed and relate it to the diameter, therefore the outer hub (rotor) area set that far out is actually spinning twice as fast as the inner in rotational speed by sq in or cross sectional distance per second. goes like T~dr or V~r(Omega), therefore its easier to keep the pads in hot working temp making for a more controlled breaking feeling over inner smaller rotors.do to the greater surface area covered per second. This also explains the air ducts to cool the pads not the rotor. The buell can do aprox by numbers, 3 to 4 bike lengths later breaking over standard breaks by design due to physics. Just having the nerve to follow through with it is the hard part. (I cant...) Physics is fun....lol squeeze it too hard and F=mv^2/r will toss you end over end as well as off the track... lol you will feel f=1/2gMV^2 and the potential energy is switched to kinetic energy and you break stuff...leaving you scratching your head. "as that didnt work." explained at kanuniversity online and youtube if you got lost. rotational motion laws,basic physics energy rules,and a little Gravity 6.67X10^-11 or G=(F/(m1m2/d^2)) | ||
| Anonymous |
Man those are some weird ass and incorrect equations. Make sure you have the right ones before you make judgements. | ||
| Ratsmc |
LOL. That actually made me laugh out loud. And I agree. | ||
| Dirty_john |
As a qualified Mech engr I find your use of those equations frighteningly flawed, suggest you think again. More importantly how am I oging to get one of those 1190RS imported into the UK? How will I afford it (couldn't bring myself to sell the 1125R even for the RS) (Message edited by Dirty_john on February 25, 2011) (Message edited by Dirty_john on February 25, 2011) | ||
| Jdugger |
Hey, look, "ZTL" has been milled off the face of the caliper! | ||
| Court |
Wresting with a pig . . . . I know better. I defer to the shade tree mechanics. You win, (Message edited by court on February 25, 2011) | ||
| Jdugger |
Court, I'll make you the same offer I made Blake. I think at this point it's pretty clear you are a lot more pontification than throttle. C'mon down to Texas. If you are a decent rider on the brakes, your rotors will turn gold, blue, purple and other neat colors, too. It's pretty well understood that stainless steels of many different compositions of alloy do that when heated in a regular atmosphere. Keep it up and you might even get some fade -- from legitimate, track usage. Not just from silly stunts designed to heat the system. I'll be happy to show you the lines so you can get up to speed quickly.  | ||
| Jdugger |
> Call me a pundit . . . but I'm going with the M.I.T. Engineer who designed the brake on this one . . . . Well, at least you didn't ask me to call you a rider. Give your buddy in the picture a call, because he knows it's got a heat problem in race applications, too. (Message edited by jdugger on February 25, 2011) | ||
| Stirz007 |
mutter mutter, mumble mumble.... "Gonna have to give them boys a coupla willer switches and let them go outside and work it out betwixt em" I thought it was tape at first, but after a closer look, it appears that the ZTL was milled off - wassup with that? Legal requirement or just 'cuz? | ||
| Gas |
Sorry, Court. The MIT dude and the scarecrow are both wrong. | ||
| Jdugger |
> come here to Columbia University, to the Fu School of Engineering, and I'll teach you how brakes work I was offering to pick up the cost of your track day. Would you do the same for my tuition? I have no doubt you understand the academics of it all very well. As it turns out, it doesn't take much of an engineer to figure out the key problem with the ZTL system. (SOLVING them is a totally different matter, I'm sure.) However, you have a very impractical view of the ZTL. In the real world, it's got some disadvantages, and there's just no denying heat is one of them. No matter how much icy-cold kool-aid one drinks, at even club-level race pace the brakes are an issue. > I didn't make any assertion beyond the fact that some of the things \ > stated here are pure "shade tree mechanic bullshit". > I was accurate. I don't doubt it for a second. That said, my brake system *now* is better than it's ever been, and it's a strange mix of hardware from both the Erik Buell Racing mounting kit and my own experimentation with bits from McMaster and my local machinist. Sometimes you just gotta put down the calculator and get a rider to put in some laps to figure out how it's gonna work. I started with that and got to a somewhat surprisingly similar conclusion as your boys with the propeller caps. Perhaps you'd like to see how I mount a rotor? The trained eye will recognize just how far from the ZTL-2 OEM on the 1125r this set-up is, and might even recognize some surprising similarities to one modern superbike... I'm a little bit proud of that, if I do say so myself.  | ||
| Gas |
Is the Eagle Canyon idea a new one? It is too bad that a "club" circuit like this is so expensive, as 90% of the people here would probably love to have a shot at a race track whenever they want. I do think you North Texans could use a FEW MORE TREES, 'cause let's face it, ECR don't look like MONZA. | ||
| Dannybuell |
In the early years of NASCAR brakes were not all that good. It was not uncommon to hear commentary about drivers finishing with no brakes. Later we saw cameras watching water drip on red rotors... I have seen many sprint car night races (360's). Many times, a car had rotors that would glow like neon in their approaches to turns. That is what happened to guy's that checked up hard on the person in front of them. How much of your braking is dealing with other riders? There are all kinds of braking, what is your IAC decel setting? Throttle off with full IAC decel would be just like grabbing the brakes, it would slow the bike down hard. More engine and less rotor? |
