| Author | Message | ||
     Bad_boy |
From: Tech Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 5:26 PM Subject: RE: stator According to our best inside sources at H-D, although many stators have failed due to damage incurred by running hot prior to the update, they have found no actual failures on new stators that have spent their life with the new wiring harness update. They have gotten many back from dealers that were replaced for customers yet have no actual problem. Perhaps there are some that have failed and were not sent back to H-D, but none that have been returned are bad. The belief at H-D is that dealers and customers do not understand the way the update works. So I was told they are going to release a detailed bulletin to dealers explaining how the update works and what not to worry about. Basically there are many times when the battery warning light comes on just warning of a pending situation not a problem, and there is a low RPM area when the alternator will not produce full voltage. It appears there is a great deal of misdiagnosis of these two things as being a sign of failure. We have never failed one here. If we were able to actually have a sample of a failed unit (one that failed after spending it's whole life with the harness upgrade, not just a stator that failed after the upgrade but had spent time running without the upgrade), we would do some diagnosis on it. However, like H-D, we can't find one. We will be working over the winter to see if we can help clarify this. Thank you, Tech Support Erik Buell Racing From: Bills-Pc [mailto:dontmatr2@verizon.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 7:07 PM To: tech@ebracing.com Subject: stator A lot of us are replacing our stators as the results of it failing . Some have already replace theirs 2-3 times. Do you know of a remedy for this. bad_boy | ||
| Hughlysses |
That's pretty good info. It would be nice if this apparent epidemic of failed stators just turned out to be bad diagnoses. | ||
| Milleniumx1 |
That is good to read. My stator died at 3K miles, but the first 60% of that was pre-upgrade of the wiring harness. Mine wasn't misdiagnosed or replaced just because of a battery light. Mine died, as in toast ... No charge, no start, no nothing. It's been great having it back - Missed it while it was gone! Mike | ||
| Reducati |
harness installed somewhere around 500 miles new...i now have 6000 plus miles, with ebr ecm and an aftermarket pipe...starts up volts are in 14.x....running around upper 13 to 14...sit at a long light/ stop n barely go city traffic...12.x...get some open road back up the volts go...also with the cooler weather coolant temps around 170 volts pretty much stay higher...i plug it in the tender overnite about 2x per month. | ||
| 01_turbowolf |
my 09 cr had the harness from new and its in the shop right now, im starting to think its because of the regulator not handling the extra power very well, they replaced the regulator and it still wasnt charging did a little investigating and found it fryed everything in the charging system the harness connectors actually melted together. needless to say i get a whole new charging system now at 6400 miles, no extra power load except for 35w hids which is less than the 55w halogens. and i never start the lights together. it also failed in 45 degree weather. | ||
| Black |
+1 Bad_boy! Thanks.... | ||
| Rex |
I had the wiring done on my 2009 CR. ( Prior to that the dash lights would go off and the battery light would come on) The last couple of nights the battery light comes on at the first stop light after exiting the interstate, and I have to sit till the light turns green. The battery warning light comes on, idling around 1000-1500 rpm. It then goes off after I accelerate from the light. REX thanks for the update. sure makes me feel good you guys are checking it out...Thanks | ||
| Ratsmc |
That's interesting and I don't dispute the information they have but there are definitely dead stators. We also know that we have stators fail post-harness upgrade - some of them thousand of miles after. There is almost certainly some mis-diagnosis but when owners aren't getting home something is definitely wrong. I guess we'll have to wait and see if the upgrade and a new stator are a real fix. | ||
| Icarus |
Last w/e I was riding home from a friends house, it was 70 degrees (F) at most, when I got stuck in a minor traffic jam no more than 20 miles from home. It was probably a 5 minute delay of stop and go, 10 minutes at the most. I switched over to check the coolant temp, which was at and stayed at 199 degrees. I did not note or notice battery voltage. I had the stator replaced, along with the charging harness at about 5,000 miles, I know have 6500 miles. Anyhow, I had not noticed anything out of the ordinary, clear the traffic jam, incur little traffic for the next 5 miles and get on the highway. Immediately upon entering the highway I accidentally crack the throttle and run it up to about 120 when I notice the engine light come on. Then I notice the voltage is about 12.9V. So I back it down to about 80 the engine light goes out for about 2 minutes then comes back on and then goes back off. Another 5 miles or so of highway driving and I notice the voltage is dropping, now it is about 12.7. I hit my exit and on the offramp I notice it is about 12.5V. As I am waiting at the light, Voltage is dropping at an alarming rate, every time you look at it another 10th of a volt disappears until I get down to about 12.2V (this is all happening faster than the typing). The light finally turns green, I am thrilled it doesnt stall, and ride the next two or three miles in first at Max RPM for the speed limit. System charges at least to 12.5 V, wait at another light for left hand turn, Voltage falling, green light, 1 mile later I am home, 12.1V, shut off bike. I rearrange garage to fit bike in appropriate place, bike barely starts, put it away and leave it in garage in disgust. I also checked the codes, Frt O2 sensor error, for what that is worth. This is essentially the exact same thing that happened to me when I was on the way to the dealer to have them order the charging harness recall parts, except it died in their parking lot and I was forced to leave it there. Diagnosis (after putting the charging harness in, and ironically it still wouldnt charge, was that the stator was dead! 8 weeks or so later I get it back. So after reading this post, I think to myself I have the golden ticket, an alternator that has spent it's life on the new charging harness, and I am ready to unleash. However, I hesitate to see what is up currently with the beast before tormenting the ears of our poor readers. Ever since I had gotten in back the last time (new stator and charging harness, I had noticed I get a strange sound, like an electrical ground out, somewhere on the right side of the bike - but I can never track it down). Regardless, I am forced to ride and said noise does nothing but bother me here and there a few times over the course however many times it was started in the last 1500 miles. Anyhow, as it has been on a tender for the last week, I disconnect the tender and fire it up, starts right up and after the cluster allows me to check for voltage. 14.2 Volts, I dont think I have ever seen it that high, even on day 1. I let it run at idle for 10 minutes, it drops to 14.1V, little blip of the throttle and it goes back to 14.2V. As soon as I kill the ignition the voltage drops like a stone to 12.1V, but ironically starts after being at 12.1 for a few minutes. I let it cool down with the ignition on and the fans running, 12.1V for a few minutes, and again it starts and voltage climbs basically back to 14V or close to it. Not sure if that helps, but I thought I was going to be on stator #3 for a minute but don't know at the moment. Tomorrow is my only opportunity to see if anything happens under riding conditions but doubt I will have the opportunity, have to leave for a week on Sunday. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Well, one good thing is that it seems very likely Erik Buell Racing will be employing this exact same charging system on the 1190RS and 1190RR, so they'll have quite an incentive to figure out the root cause of the problem and correct it. | ||
| Jeepinbueller |
Don't get too riled up about the numbers on the dash Icarus. Voltage is going to fluctuate greatly depending on engine speed. At stop lights and in traffic, my voltage drops to 12.1 Vdc. Now realize, a battery by itself will hold 12.1 Vdc ... with the engine off (no charging from the stator), the battery will read 12.2 +/- 0.2 Vdc. The battery light will flicker on every once in a while saying, "Hey, not a big problem yet, but the voltage is nearing the threshold for a negative charge." Not that anything's wrong, it's just letting you know (as the EB R letter said). Mine's been like this since I got it back from my first stator replacement (with harness), and everything's fine. Just ride it ... if it gets below 11.6 Vdc, then start to sweat a little bit, but not until then. I routinely will ride with the IC reading 12.7 Vdc ... dosn't bother me anymore. | ||
| Murf |
I bought my bike used with a dead battery. I then fried the voltage regulator jumping the bike. I put in a used regulator and it worked great. Then, and I think this must be pure coincidence, I put in an ebr ecm and rode it. It was charging fine. I stopped and did one hard run up to about 110mph, from that time on it won't charge. When I do the stator tests it shows bad. Now back to the dealer. I have no idea if the harness was upgraded or not. Oh well, it ran great and was a blast while it lasted. Murf | ||
| 1125cr |
I had my stator replaced about 1800 miles ago. Before it went I had about 5500 miles on the bike without the upgrade harness. I never had any low voltage problems initially after my stator replacement. Last weekend I had trouble with the battery light flashing on at an idle. I even got the dreaded low system voltage service engine light. I was already scheduled to have my clutch weep fixed so I asked them to take a look at it. Their solution to the problem was to run another ground wire from the regulator further back on the subframe. Seems to be working so far. I haven't had any more issues with my battery light coming on. I also noticed that my voltage won't drop nearly as low at an idle. I'm still skeptical that this is going to solve my problem. | ||
| Tbowdre |
what is this ground wire you speak of? please explain.... or have your dealer explain Im really curious todd | ||
| 1125cr |
They just took a wire from one of the regulator mounts and ran it to a spot further back on the subframe. I don't know if this is something new that HD is telling dealers to try but so far my voltage has been a little better.  | ||
| Murf |
Today mine stopped charging right and I finally gave up and parked it. After reading this I went out and ran the ground wire. It charges 14v again. I imagine its just because the regulator is cool, and I didn't ride it this late to find out what happens, but its encouraging. At least my stator isn't junk. I wonder if these regulators aren't just overheating or poorly grounded? Murf | ||
| Pyrogen |
This is interesting to look into. I believe that my bike was purchased with the harness upgrade in March and at 8500miles the stator crapped out, so I think that one should be considered by HD for post upgrade no mileage stator failure, then again, the bike was purchased with 7 miles on it so who knows when the harness upgrade was done, and there was about 200 miles ran with an ebr race ecm that may not have been programmed for the harness upgrade. I will need to check to see if I have the "new" ground wire. Do you think I should add the new ground wire if it isn't present on my bike??? If this will keep from frying another stator I am all for a cheap simple fix | ||
| S21125r |
If they know that all of these stators are damaged from before the harness then why are they not replacing the stator as part of the recall? If you had a bad oil pump you'd expect them to replace the whole engine.... I can see a lot of good people getting screwed when the stator finally craps out after the warrantee is up. | ||
| Tbowdre |
ground wire. really, seriously? I am no professional mechanic, I have no credentials at all. But WTF is this little wire doing for the regulator rectifier. The entire back of the unit is mounted against a metal plate with heat sink/thermal grease Im calling bulls#it on this one todd | ||
| Dannybuell |
Tbowdre - I agree this does seem kind of weird. Could the thermal paste/grease be compromising the ground? | ||
| 1125rcya |
I just had my stator/regulator replaced...yesterday on my first ride about 10mins into it, I get system voltage; Turn signals won't work no tach and no speedometer. Oh ya bike cut off with clutch pulled in for no reason. same signs 2 months before my stator went bad. | ||
| Hughlysses |
It could be that the VR is not failing, but instead is not getting a proper reference voltage to know how much charge to deliver. Adding this ground wire may be correcting that condition. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Grounds have resistance, just like voltage. If this ground wire extends the VR ground "closer" (physically and in terms of resistance) to the battery for "better" grounding...it could absolutely make a difference. A wonky, floating, unstable ground could absolutely cause a bad signal for the VR, paste or no paste. | ||
| Dannybuell |
I just ran a fat wire from the VR to the negative post on the battery. It's been raining cats and dogs but there was a brief lull between the storms. I took it for a ride around the complex, enough for it to come off cold. It showed 14.2 volts! I will post again when it get dries up and I get a chance to test it more. Anecdotal comment: My chopper building friend said you can never have too many grounds. He also said that many cars especially German cars have grounds all over the place even on the hood where there are no electrics at all! Time will tell. | ||
| Smoke4ndmears |
instead of running it back there, why not try running it to the main ground (where the battery goes) at the base of the frame near the fuel pump? | ||
| Zac4mac |
Use one or two bonding straps at the mounting bolts. Hi power radio stuff does this for a "positive" ground. 1-2" wide copper strap, all surfaces cleaned/flat from frame or subframe to R/R. If to the subframe, bond frame to subframe too. Overkill IMO, but the best grounding strategy I know. High voltage OR current. In lieu of strap, 1/4" or wider copper braid should work well. There may be cases where there is so much paste the ground is compromised. When I overclocked computer chips, I would polish the contact faces and use a minimal amount of high-end thermal paste. Thermal conduction from best to least - direct contact thermal paste air lots of thermal paste Z | ||
| Dannybuell |
My fat wire is about the size of one voltage regulator wire, 10ga?. The under the frame ground location and 2" straps sound pretty good too. | ||
| J2blue |
God, how timely could this post be. Well, after the first stator failed back in July the harness upgrade, I was told, was installed and a new stator put in. 800 miles later the new stator went bad(as determined by dealer) and was replaced. The harness and regulator were not found to be bad on the second incidence. Today, after 1400 miles since the second stator was replaced, I get the engine/battery combo light. This after a short trip of less than 5 miles! I checked the voltage and it was down to 11.4. Got the bike right back to the garage and let it idle and watched the volts. It dipped down to 11.2. Shut it off and waited a few minutes before starting again. It started with a weak initial roll over of the starter. I blipped the throttle up to about 6k and the readout flashed "system voltage error" or something like that for a few seconds. The battery and engine light remained on. Parked it. After taking a drive in my pickup to get my mind off of it I came back to check the mileage and see if it would start. It did start and the voltage had increased back to 11.8 volts. Hmmm? I don't have access to AC to trickle charge the battery so I'm just going to take it to the shop next weekend. Zac, perhaps y'all can arrange to send them the third fried stator, if it does turn out to be that, since it has had the harness upgrade. Perhaps it would be best to send it to Erik Buell Racing first, and not HD, if at all possible. Anyone interested in buying a 2009CR? I'm seriously considering selling it. | ||
| Tbowdre |
okay fine... people smarter than me are chiming in and "calling" my bulls#it card. I will be getting my 2009 R, with 7000mi, back on tuesday after having the stator replaced. RR was replaced at about 3000miles. Harness at about 2500miles I will definitely be installing a ground wire. The logic really escapes me.... unless it is just simply a bad ground where it mounts. BUT anyway, no way this hurts anything and it will take 2 seconds!! todd | ||
| Murf |
Mine has been peculiar in that the voltage drops to the point it won't start but after cooling it is once again 14v or so. This tells me the stator isn't bad. And since the dealer is 2.5 hours one way I'd like to fix it myself to save 2 round trips of 5 hours. A friend who has had multitude of electrical issues with his VFR suggested looking at the main ground. I did, and despite the cable looking good at the frame I filed the end a little. Sure enough some corrosion came off. I can't say its the problem, in fact I doubt it, but with the plastic fuel line guard it means the cable doesn't contact the nut- the only contact is the back side against the aluminum frame and that's where some corrosion was. I also ran a ground from the battery to the subframe since the subframe grounding is only through the bolts at mounting and through the regulator. We'll see later when I get to ride it if it did any good. My question concerns the backing plate for the regulator. Saturday when my charging system would fail the regulator would be very hot to the touch. Has anyone drilled the backing plate full of holes to permit better air to the back of the regulator? That, and cementing some computer heat sinks to the perimeter of the regulator seems like a way to cool it down some. Murf |
