| Author | Message | ||
     Dannybuell |
Dream happily, BWB'ers have your back! | ||
| Baggh |
For those of you that call HD customer service you may hear the same "preventive measure non-fixes" that I have. Run your bike at 5K RPM at all times (this was later changed to 3K) Charge your battery every night... keep it on a battery tender whenever possible Turn your High Beams off whenever stopped I actually even was told that I am riding my bike "wrong" I was told by 3 separate service techs (I have this in writing from one) that R&D on the charging system is currently not going on, planned for the future. The HD customer service rep stated that a fix is not planned but may happen. There was a rather uncomfortable moment of silence at this point of the call... finally I was like.. "Uhhhh sooooo the fix is to do this list of preventive measures... ... thats it?" Her response... "Yes, your case is still being reviewed give us a week." It will be a week tomorrow... I expect nothing but hopefully I am pleasantly surprised. The above recommendations do not sound like an actual "fix" to me. It sounds like a long list of guesses as to what might help the bike's charging issues and\or band aids. The above also makes sense if we purchased "track only" bikes. If you are like me you purchased your bike as an awesome commuter and fun weekend adventure bike taking on some twisties. 5K (now 3K) RPM suggestion- No where in the operating manual does it state that one must operate their bike at this RPM level. Also... go out and ride your bikes... at a stop keep your bike at 5K... not a good idea. Even 3 requires you to use the throttle. I dont know about you but I would much rather pay attention to my rear view mirror and other drivers than sit there staring at my RPM reading to ensure I am within these limits. The ECM keeps the bike at about 1.5 RPM's when idle from the factory for a reason as well. Charge your Battery Every Night- Well... not to sound flagrant orrrr to be untactful but... no. I want my bike to operate like every other production bike out there... and that is for the bike to be self charged. The need for charging the bike kind of puts a damper on any "weekend road trip plans" unless you plan on bringing a rather large extension cord and tender with you. Even then its kind of difficult to find an outlet if you and your buddies decide to camp out that night. I would not have purchased this bike if this was a requirement. I expect to charge my bike if: I store it orr if I would have purchased an electric powered bike. I purchased a combustion engine... I will not tend my bike as a "charging system requirement" or "fix". High Beam use: Every other modern vehicle known to man does not have an issue with High Beam usage. I want my bike to operate the same as my XB or any other bike out there... I want to use my High Beam by day as recommended in the BUELL 1125 operators manual page 3.Very important... HD\Buell themselves recommend using the High Beam by day for safety reason. Page 21 of the TX Motorcycle License Handbook states HEADLIGHT The best way to help others see your motorcycle is to keep the headlight on—at all times (although motorcycles sold in the U.S. since 1978 automatically have the headlights on when running.) Studies show that, during the day, a motorcycle with its light on is twice as likely to be noticed. Use of the high beam during the day increases the likelihood that oncoming drivers will see you. Use low beam at night and in cloudy weather. Page 1 under Safe Operating Rules:Buell 1125 models has "Take a rider training course" as ITS FIRST safety recommendation. This recommendation even comes before their recommendation to read the owners manual. I took the course and the instructors recommended (pounded in our heads actually) to use the High Beam by day. As far as my riding the bike wrong: Well... I operate this bike the same as I did\do any other bike I've owned. My XB doesn't seem to have any problems with how I ride. My buddy that has an '09 Ducati 1098 S rides the same as I do (and that bike, I hate to say it, is equally if not MORE of a track beast than the 1125) and he doesn't have a long list of "preventive measures". Maybe he is riding his bike wrong too. Neh... I doubt it. I'm riding the bike according to the operators manual and, as I said, any other bikes I've owned. This was actually quite the insulting recommendation by HD. So... be ready for their list of non-fix recommendations if you call... but please do call. A resolution isn;t going to be found if we just live with these issues. We shoudn't stand for the rather insulting response from HD thus far. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Amen Brother. | ||
| Baggh |
The past few times I talked with HD about these issues I brought up "I am not the only one having these issues... hundreds if not thousands of your customers are reporting identical issues with your bikes on badweatherbikers.com." Service techs and the HD customer service just kinda nod their head. However a salesman chimed in saying "You know... people can write anything on "some" forum." "Some forum!?" I responded "2 HD dealers where I bought my bikes, including this one, recommended I visit BWB when I bought my bikes for any\all Buell related information. Nobody knows these bikes better than the people who ride them." He just did the head nod thing. Soooo according to many at HD we here on BWB are just "writing stuff"... writing whatever we feel like it just to do it I guess. Seems to me they'll do\say anything rather than simply admit there is a concrete issue and that they are (or should be) required to fix it (them). | ||
| Jdugger |
Bag, You take whining to a whole new level, I'll give you admiration for that. We here at BWB aren't "writing stuff", we know it's an issue. A lot of us think the workarounds are pretty reasonable, even if (and I agree with you here) it's not perfect. I almost NEVER have my bike below 5k, and certainly not below 4k except for a minute or two at a time, and certainly not more than a few minutes per tankful. This is not because someone at HD told me, it's because that's where the bike likes to be ridden, and even when I'm in the canyons/on the street, I keep the revs up. The bike performs better there. You are getting the suggestions of "keep the battery fully charged", and "ride at higher RPMS" because they DO make a difference to the charging system. Seriously dude, just spend the $200 and fix the stator so it's never a problem and send HD the bill. If there is a class action lawsuit someday your $200 will get settled, and if there isn't, you solve the only really serious problem with the bike NOW and get to ride it this summer. Your dealer, if you have a good relationship with them, might even be able to get customer service to warranty the labor for the stator pull and replacement, so you are only out the rewinding fee. Bitching here will only get you... well, nothing. | ||
| Froggy |
Yep, especially when we have found in the past people coming here to bitch about their bike, it turns out they never owned a Buell. Also, most things you read on the internet cannot be believed. I see tons of misinformation, most of which is on other Buell forums where rather than correct it, everyone starts to believe the wrong things. | ||
| Black |
Froggy, I asked this question on the 630+ posts stator thread....but is there anyone out there that can identify what a failed stator is? Does it smell burned? No resistance? Low resistance? Is there burned insulation? Is there a visible parted winding? After all this discussion, I KNOW A LOT MORE ABOUT THE YETI than how, why, or even if a stator has failed. The easiest thing in the world for a shop or technician to do is replace parts until he replaces the right part.....which is fine until the warranty runs out... | ||
| Dannybuell |
We are all trolls and liars, you cheer leaders!  Ride by a MC cop in Portland,Or. with a Barker/whatever at 5000 rpm's and you WILL see blue! GET REAL. Disregard the electrical system it's just there to get it out the door. How many Lucas jokes do you know? You may substitute ##### if humor permits. :-) Lucas - Get home before dark. Lucas - the patent holder for the short circuit. Lucas - Inventor of the first intermittent wiper. Lucas - Inventor of the self-dimming headlamp. Lucas - The three position Lucas switch - Dim, Flicker and Off. Lucas Electronics - The Original Anti-Theft Device. Successful businesses are based on consumer and industry respect. If HD/Rotax act's properly they will earn everyone's respect. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
I own a Buell and have had several problems with it. Am I not to be taken seriously by HD because I post here? You know as well as I that it's bullshit and HD is just trying to wash their hands of it all. I still can't understand the "live with it" mentality or the people that own a bike that have yet to have a problem acting as if the people that are are "b!tching". If I paid for it, and it has a warranty, you better God damn well fix it or come up with a realistic one. When will you guys learn your getting fuked by HD all over again? You may want to roll over and take it, but me? No frickin' way. | ||
| Baggh |
Jdugger... I've heard about you... "doosh" from the Ntsba forums. I hear you are a cool\nice guy that luvs the Buells (as do most of us.. including me). I understand your angle and certainly appreciate your fix recommendation. I even would take you up on that fix if it wasn't for that "principle" thing I spoke about earlier. Believe me... that would be the easy\stress free route. I am not only talking about these issues here... if so... you are 110% correct... I would get nothing. As I said... I probably still will get nothing but I feel as if its worth trying. Your riding preference\ perspective originates (I believe) from being a hardcore track riding enthusiast. I appreciate that... but most simply want to ride their bikes on the street. If I rode my bike regularly as you described... well... I think the speeding tickets would pile up quick. One more thought... I may be giving the impression that I simply putt around. Far from the case... I regularly ride between 4.5~5.5 RPM... and MANY times give it all its got on desolate straight aways, every onramp, when the light turns green I "hit it"... every time. Thats part of the fun of owning these things... opening them up and getting on it. I just dont ride like that regularly... or... as I said... the tickets would pile up fast. Froggy... are people coming here to bitch about their bikes or are they trying to get help for their issues or share info that may help others? I have not stated one solitary peep about my XB here other than praise. As I said... that thing is bullet proof. I have made a great deal of posts in regards to how much I luv the 1125 as well. Even when I was having the clutch weep issues and the original charging issue I was of the "its par for the course with new engineering" camp. I was more than happy to live with some growing pains. It is only until now when I have been told by HD that there isn't a proper fix in the works for the charging issues that I had enough. It sucks if people are coming here throwing out info that dont even own the bikes... no doubt. | ||
| Black |
Pulease! Can somebody please answer my question. You guys with failed stators.....how do you know they failed? Burned smell? Parted winding? Burned insulation? Low megger reading? There HAS to be something. I would really like to know. I have cut way back on riding my bike because of comments here for fear of a breakdown. PLEASE give me some evidence of what the failure mode of a failed stator is....and I mean a 2009 1125R Buell stator. | ||
| Dktechguy112 |
black, The stator charges the battery, so if your stator fails, the battery will not charge. If the stator is failing, you will see sustained voltages in the low 12's, 11's or maybe 10's. | ||
| Baggh |
Black... when my bike finally died the HD techs told me my stator fried. They did the harness upgrade\replaced the stator at the same time. You do bring up a great question. I wouldn't "fear" riding your bike... get out there and enjoy it man. You may not even ever have an issue. Unless you ride it you'll never find out though  | ||
| Dktechguy112 |
I can understand the "fear". I don't mind riding when its close to home, but if it breaks down 80 miles from home that is a problem. | ||
| Jules |
Black: There re pictures in this thread: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/575471.html Obviously you'd need to take the cover off to see that damage so it's the "symptoms of failure" you'd need to look out for. Voltage too high may indicate the RR failing Voltage too low may indicate the Stator failing (or the RR, but more likely to be the Stator). | ||
| Jules |
I also wouldn't cut back on your riding... In the worst case scenario that'd just mean the stator lasts just long enough to let your warranty finish before failing. You're better off just riding it and keeping an eye out for the symptoms, if you have charging issues let the dealer know ASAP otherwise just ride the bike. | ||
| Black |
Thanks, Yes, if your system does not charge...I understand, but that can be a bad voltage regulator, poorly grounded battery, loose connections on stator or rotor, bad rotor, broken wire in harness. If a tech tells you it is fried, he ought to be able to show you where it failed. There should be a burn, or a broken/burned-through winding. You should be able to see it, smell it, and read it on a megger or multimeter. That is what I am trying to find out. | ||
| Baggh |
A brief (I'll try to keep it brief that is) play by play of my stator failure... About 500 miles after I bought my bike I noticed my battery light coming on every now and again. Over the course of time it stayed on longer and longer. I began searching these forums for info. What I found is that Buell is sending out notices for a "harness upgrade that improves low RPM charging." I called the HD techs about it and they had no idea what I was talking about. A few weeks later, sure enough, I received the letter from Buell. I was at about 5K miles at this point. I called HD and made the appointment to have the upgrade. While waiting for the part I continued riding. One day I was riding some twisties around my home. The battery light began staying on continuously. I decided to turn around and head home. Then my "check engine light came on and the voltage console warning." I was about 10 miles from my home at this point. Approaching a twistie I downshifted... as soon as I pulled in the clutch my engine died and the rear tire locked up given I was in a lower gear. My rear started getting squirrely. I timed pulling in the clutch when my bike was centered during the squirrely skid to disengage the drive train and stop the skid. My bike straightened out and I came to a stop. (btw MSF recommends NOT stopping your skid... ride it that way to a stop or you could high side). I slid about 20~30 yards... tire smoke everywhere. I actually thought, while the adrenaline was going, that it was pretty cool. When I came down from the excitement I realized just how dangerous that situation could have been. There was no smell associate with the stator frying. As I said... the battery light stayed on... then the check engine light... I rode for about 3~5 minutes with the lights on til the above happened. | ||
| Baggh |
Black... the tech told me that the stator basically melted to the housing.. so there was clear evidence of it frying. | ||
| Jules |
Here's a pretty good thread on the physical signs on the stator failing on both pre-harness and post-harness bikes. Unfotunately it seems apparent that not all of the failed stators are immediately obvious just by visual inspection: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/573726.html | ||
| Baggh |
Just out of genuine curiosity... if these bikes where made (as a requirement) to run at 4~5K RPM as some, including HD, are stating then why would HD issue a low RPM harness upgrade to begin with? My guess would be to make them operate properly for general street riding use. As I said... while I am moving I am at about 4.5 to 5.5 RPM at all times but in commuter traffic, red lights, intersections, etc this isn't always possible. So it appears to me in writing (via the notice issued by HD\Buell) that a charging issue is obvious. | ||
| Black |
Thanks Baggh. Thanks Jules. I would have liked to see a resistance test of that stator. That could possibly lead to a real diagnosis..However, dark varnish does not necessarily mean it has failed......not without a continuity check. Roger, that stator probably is smoked.....but we will never know unless somebody puts a meter on it. I want to know why they are failing. (Message edited by black on August 22, 2010) | ||
| Baggh |
ehhh... nevermind my last comment. The issue with many here isn't "is there a charging issue?" I think we all know that there is. The debate with some is how to go about fixing it. | ||
| Jules |
Black - "somewhere" on here was a thread with the results of resistance testing a failed stator prior to it being sent off to be re-wound... Unfortunately there are so many threads ont his topic I haven't come across that one again, but it's on here somewhere! | ||
| Jules |
This was originally posted by "Vinix", i can't comment on the accuracy of the information, but I have seen similar observations posted on here previously. Perhaps someone with more knowledge would care to comment? Anyway - this is a potential method to "test" the stator (although TBH if it's failed already it's normally very apparent). The stator check procedure can be done if you have access to a quality meter. Being a electronics tech / industrial electrician I use a Fluke 87. 1. At the unplugged stator connector check each pin to ground ( the frame ). Note because the stator is in a oil bath this test can be misleading as oil is a insulator. I have used a insulation tester ( Fluke 1587 ) to verify my insulation. Note this is not a Buell approved procedure, but its a industry standard when testing the windings of a motor or transformer. I tend to treat the stator as a oil filled transformer. This procedure will allow me to check for the loss of insulation strength and graph it to predict failure. 2. The next test procedure is resistance test across the stator windings, and you check 1-2, 2-3, and 1-3 looking for 0.1-0.3 Ohms. Again without a very high quality meter you will not be able to measure readings this low. Balance is the very important thing to look for. Perhaps more so than over all resistance. Each meters ability to read a low resistance will differ slightly. 3 The simple test as a pass fail is the voltage test. Where again at the stator connection disconnected, check 1-2, 2-3 and 1-3 for a voltage reading of 45-55 volts AC at 3000 RPM. Because this is dangerous and will cause a shock use all appropriate protection. Most all meters will read AC voltage accurately. Again the balance of all voltages should be within a few volts of each other. A further note this procedure will cause a code to be stored in the ECM. 4. Heating is a cause of drop off in voltage being produced. Combining this with low RPM running using ohms law voltage and current are inversely proportional. You are drawing the larger current at lower voltage and a lower voltage at a lower RPM, the the low RPM riders experiencing higher failure rates. | ||
| Black |
Thanks Jules, | ||
| Jdugger |
Bag, Take your annual salary and divide it by 1928. (that's a typical number of work hours in a year) Now, divide 200 by that number, and tell me if the effort you have put into this is more or less than what it's actually worth to you? Yea, I get the principal of it all. Yea, I agree with you on just about every one of your points. And, I think it's pretty much irrelevant because HD ain't gonna do shit that's solves the problem for you. If you want to ride around town at commuting speeds and RPMs with your high beams on, not keep the bike on a tender, and not blow the stator, an 08 charing system or a rewound 09 are your answer. Period. And, that's unlikely to EVER change. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying it's reality. I'm not accepting "the workarounds", I realize there ain't jack I can do about it that's cheaper than just rewinding the dang stator. It's not "giving up", it's "taking the easiest and least expensive path". | ||
| Dannybuell |
The acceptance of bad engineering can aggravate those that PURSUE PERFECTION PROFESSIONALLY. It's an OCD thing. | ||
| Dktechguy112 |
So your going to wait for more bad engineering to come along from Harley? Its not like Harley is going to hire erik and co to fix this, it would have to be Harley engineers. Why would harley fix this? They have no motivation. Buell to them is a dead brand, and they don't care if it gets a bad rep. If they make a "fix", lets say they do some R & D and make a new stator and voltage regulator that are solid. Then they have to recall all the 1125's to give everyone the fix. That costs a lot of money, i imagine that they are banking on the fact that they can limp people out of the warranty with the "harness". Even if they have to give 50% of the 1125's new stator's under warranty, that is less expensive then fixing the problem. I personally am going to ride the crap out of my bike, if the stator fails in the warranty period, then harley will have to pay for it, if its out of the warranty, then i will get it rewound. | ||
| Dannybuell |
A 'merchantability' complaint couldn't be clearer. merchantability: ...something will be fit for the purpose for which it is sold... |
