| Author | Message | ||
     Jaimec |
Pmjolly: You just expressed my biggest fear... | ||
| Donaldb |
So does someone have a list of the values that can be changed? I need to get rid of most of the engine braking and want to have the fans come on earlier, sure would like to have a list of what is available to change. I've e-mail Erik Buell Racing but haven't got a response in two weeks. donald | ||
| Fresnobuell |
What's the aversion to using the brakes? I don't get it. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Fresnobuell - My E B R ECM experience is that the engine diesels so much with 'the brakes on' that you are fighting the engine's desire to go forward as opposed to braking. Having the engine fight the brakes makes no sense to me at all. Who wants to pull the clutch in to quit fighting the engine while trail braking into a corner? Stock ECM: Incrementally drop the throttle, if you need to slow down more close the throttle. Still not enough use your brakes. | ||
| Pmjolly |
O.K. I got the bike out and ran it for a couple of hours. I had no problems with the difference in engine braking. When I'm riding quicker, through corners, it works. I am running higher in the revs when I am going fast, so it didn't make much difference. I got used to the traffic light to traffic light riding pretty quickly. It did make a difference, but I like it. I should not have judged it with a ride around the block. One thing I have not decided on. Everyone says it runs cooler with the race ECM. This ride was the first time the frame got hot enough to burn me. It left welts on my legs near the inside of my knees. It might be that it was 104 outside while riding. Normally I ride early when it is in the low 80's. The coolant temp never went too high. I dunno. | ||
| Ratsmc |
Engine braking is a flaw not a feature. | ||
| Buell77 |
Dannybuell: try dropping a gear or two. If your revs are to low when you apply the brakes it has no choice but to diesel. | ||
| Ratsmc |
I have to agree. If the motor is pushing when you have the throttle closed, you are in way too high of a gear. | ||
| Westmoorenerd |
I personally LOVE the reduced engine braking on the Erik Buell Racing ecm...I prefer using my brakes to slow me down, and sometimes I just need to scratch or something, which used to slightly suck with the stock engine braking.... | ||
| Ratsmc |
I thought about this a lot last night. I think the term engine braking has people thinking that it is another source of braking power to be used right alongside the actual brakes. Apparently, it has been too long since 2-stroke started to disappear. I would strongly recommend that anyone who relies on engine braking learn how to avoid doing that. Engine braking is unreliable, unpredictable and downright dangerous. Using for brakes is sloppy riding and makes the prospect of losing a belt that much scarier. | ||
| Motorhead102482 |
+1 Ratsmc. I have some hard wheel hop from engine braking too hard while down shifting during an emergency stop along with normal brakes. If it was used improperly by someone they could really get hurt or do some damage to their bike. Honestly, I'm not really sure how this thread went on so long about something so minute. | ||
| Ratsmc |
LOL. That might be the real important question here. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
why is it minute? i can't stand how much engine braking there is. it's pretty important to me. just need to play around with the mapping some more to see if i can get it worked out | ||
| Cherry_bomb |
"I have some hard wheel hop from engine braking too hard while down shifting during an emergency stop along with normal brakes." wow, you do downshifts during an emergency brake? i call that superior handling...respect... | ||
| Dannybuell |
Ratsmc - S1 same belt last 8 years. Belt drive longevity = smoothness. There has been a time or two when I wasn't as smooth as usual, A small clunk, I sensed the compensator sprocket. Whenever that happened I thought that the race ECM with it's up or down gear changing smoothness aka dieseling would likely help in belt and compensator sprocket life. I also came to the conclusion that a dieseling ECM's forgiving nature would be easier for beginners to use. Lowering the gears to raise the RPM's up for more decel works. Coming up to turns at 6000+ rpm just for some decel? This could be me holding on to my S1 habits or just wanting mileage. | ||
| Jaimec |
If you have wheel hop during emergency braking, then you're doing it wrong. For emergency braking you should have the clutch pulled in (NO engine braking at all). Reminds me of the idiotic complaint someone had with the BMW "K" bikes when they first came out in the eighties. Someone decided the braking system was defective because IF you applied the rear brake ONLY without pulling in the clutch the bike would start hopping and they wanted BMW to fix that. BMW's justifiable (in my eyes) response was "LEARN HOW TO RIDE." In 160,000 miles with my original K100 I NEVER experienced wheel hop during hard braking, yet I used engine braking all the time. The difference is in braking to STOP vs. braking to SLOW DOWN. In braking to stop, you take the engine out of the equation immediately by squeezing in the clutch at the same time you are applying BOTH brakes. In braking to SLOW, you can use whatever method is appropriate to slow yourself down to an appropriate speed based on time and distance. This could mean using just the engine, or the engine with some front/rear brake combination. Also, by "Engine Braking" I don't mean squeezing the clutch, downshifting, and then dumping the clutch. That'll beat the crap out of your transmission in no time unless you have a slipper clutch. You can downshift, RAISE your RPM with the throttle and then EASE out the clutch to slow... but as I said above, it all has to do with time and distance. Engine braking also comes in mighty handy in very hilly country unless you like smoking your brakes on long descents. That's a good way to fade them to the point where they'll be useless when that deer inevitably jumps out in front of you. None of what I've said above is applicable to you guys who ride primarily on the track, by the way. I'm addressing all of my comments to those of us who ride primarily on public roads. Just to be clear. | ||
| Ratsmc |
Braking is braking. Braking to slow down is exactly the same as braking to stop. Even when slowing down, you should be using the brakes not the motor. Use the equipment as designed. The 'I've ridden for x number of decades using engine braking all the time' doesn't make it a valid riding technique. It is still unpredictable and dangerous. | ||
| Jng1226 |
Rastmc - I don't mean to flog the dead horse, but I have to ask: Have you never ridden a flowing mountain road (like 89A from Prescott to Jerome) and adjusted your entrance speed to the next corner just by rolling off the throttle and not touching the brakes? To me, engine braking is a characteristic of all motorcycles with some having more, some less. It is a factor that you manipulate during a sporting ride, just like throttle position/brake pressure, body position, counter-steering, etc. In some instances, especially with high-compression V-Twins, a slight roll off the throttle provides the same effect as brushing the front brake, causing fork dive which in turn steepens the steering angle allowing the bike to continually steer towards the apex as you maintain even counter-steering pressure. I've been to California Superbike School and also agree with Code's philosophies, especially the one that says "the brakes are for stopping the bike, not the engine." However, we're mostly talking about a flowing twisty road which can be quite different from the racetrack. My $0.02, for free even!  | ||
| Nm5150 |
I don't use much engine braking simply because I already know my back tire and brake is only going to live half as long as the front just from the throttle | ||
| Ratsmc |
Jng1226, Engine braking is, of course, a characteristic of bikes and riding them and there are times when I am being lazy and let the bike slow itself but I try not to do that approaching corners. But laziness should be something we try to remove from our riding in the same way we continually work to improve our skills. I haven't spent time on a track in years so most of my riding is on the street and I feel it is particularly important to do everything we can to get rid of bad habits. This isn't the same as being an ATGATT nazi, I am not trying to tell people what they have to do, I am just trying to wake people up to the idea that they have developed a bad habit and they actually work to make it a part of their riding. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Ratsmc, I disagree completely. Engine braking is neither dangerous (no moreso than riding a motorcycle in general) nor is it unpredictable when used on a properly-running vehicle. Rolling on and off the throttle to accelerate and decelerate results in more-fluid motions than using the brake and as Jng1226 suggested, if you are riding a flowing road with consecutive corners where there is little need or opportunity for hard acceleration or heavy braking, eschewing the front brake in favor of using engine braking makes the whole process much smoother. On a racetrack, where the intent is to be using as much of the traction pie as possible at all times, engine braking has less of a place. However, that also depends on the track. Gateway near St. Louis has a 180-degree decreasing-radius right-hander. I ride through the first half of the corner (before the radius decreases) with maintenance throttle, and then roll off the throttle completely to bleed off a little speed when entering the sharper part of the corner. Considering that I am at full lean (at least for my skill level) through the whole corner and using almost all of my front tire's available traction for turning, there is little to no traction left for braking. Relying on engine braking allows me to take the sharper part of the corner without risking upsetting the front tire by resorting to the brake. Might a skilled professional prefer a different method of taking that corner? It's certainly possible, but I am pretty sure my riding style at that part of the track is not "wrong" either. And I bet that if I closed the throttle and there wasn't any engine braking to be had (such as with the E B R ECM's engine braking disabled), I'd either run wide or wash out the front end. (Message edited by thefleshrocket on August 16, 2010) | ||
| Ratsmc |
See, the basic argument in favor of using engine braking seems to be 'it works for me' which isn't really validation. The fact is, there isn't a situation where engine braking is smoother or more predictable than real braking - in all cases, you can use your brakes more controllably and effectively. There is an argument that it requires more skill to use your brakes than engine braking but I would argue that a rider should learn to use their equipment properly and safely rather than rely on a crutch. There isn't, however, an argument that engine braking isn't less safe. Engine braking is subject to so many factors that dictate it effectiveness that it shouldn't be relied upon. Changes in pavement grip can be easily managed using your brakes while engine braking has not "more" or "less" (drivetrain lash makes "more" an even worse idea). Additionally, you are relying on the motor to maintain it's predictable nature at a time when you are most vulnerable. Then there is the catastrophic: a belt or chain failure. This would be a very different argument if the alternative to engine braking weren't appropriate or capable of the task at hand but that simply isn't the case. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
Received my E-B-R race ECM today and I installed it while I was at work. My observations pretty much line up with Pmjolly's and others. At high rpm engine braking is less than OEM, below about 3500rpm it's significantly less than OEM. It's been a few years since I've ridden a two-stroke, and it's the same... but different. Maybe a little bit like an automatic car (and I hate automatics)... but different. When coasting in the traffic on the way home, if I let it drift below 3500rpm it feels more as if the throttle is slightly open, or the idle has been set high. I'm guessing to reducing the engine braking the ECM is both opening the IAC and adding more fuel. It's impressive how smooth it is, and how smooth it returns to idle, and a little un-nerving having ridden what seemed like a different bike on the way to work this morning. By the time I got home I was instinctively riding at least one gear lower, sometimes two, than I usually would to keep the rpm up. On a fast sunday morning blast it will probably feel great, and the same for trackdays. When I'm on the brakes it's no issue. Constantly doing small adjustments in speed in the traffic in the morning could be a pain, and it'll be interesting trying to do a relaxed ride with friends at "The Pace". I'm not forgetting that it's clearly marked Race Use Only. I haven't decided whether I like the reduced engine braking or not yet, I'll ride it for a few weeks before I make up my mind. Overall the ECM is very impressive. Smoother at low rpm, and the transition from closed throttle to cracked open throttle is sublime. No abruptness, or snatch, just smooooooth  . There is a very cool 180 degree exit ramp on the way home - I dove into it and had a play around and noticed that you can be quite silly and shut the throttle mid corner and it doesn't upset the chassis. Is this what the lack of engine braking is for? And does it make slipper clutches superfluous? Just to be black and white, what is the intended benefit for the track for the lack of engine braking in the race ECM? And yeah, I think I can keep this topic going for a while... | ||
| Jdugger |
> what is the intended benefit for the track for the lack of engine braking in the race ECM Keeping the rear wheel in line as much as possible in limited traction situations like braking. | ||
| Ratsmc |
A slipper clutch is a solution to too much engine braking. If you don't have enough engine braking to cause the rear wheel to hop, skip or slide, you really don't need a slipper clutch. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
"See, the basic argument in favor of using engine braking seems to be 'it works for me' which isn't really validation. " If something can be proven to work well under certain situations, how is that not validation? "The fact is, there isn't a situation where engine braking is smoother or more predictable than real braking - in all cases, you can use your brakes more controllably and effectively." I don't think there is a situation where engine braking is any LESS predictable or smooth than brake braking either, though. A properly-running engine should respond like clockwork. Sure, brake braking is more effective than engine braking considering that brakes have far more power to stop a vehicle than the engine does. When looking for maximum stopping power, the brakes are the way to go, but for times when only minor braking is needed, engine braking is a valid substitute for using the brakes. "Changes in pavement grip can be easily managed using your brakes while engine braking has not "more" or "less" (drivetrain lash makes "more" an even worse idea)." I don't understand what you're implying. The amount of engine braking CAN be controlled by the throttle--it is possible to have more or less engine braking based on throttle position. "Additionally, you are relying on the motor to maintain it's predictable nature at a time when you are most vulnerable. Then there is the catastrophic: a belt or chain failure." Again, engine braking is used in situations where only a mild amount of braking is necessary. If something happens to the engine to cause it to provide insufficient braking, the rider can always supplement that braking by using the brakes. If, during the decreasing-radius right-hander at Gateway, I found that engine braking wasn't slowing the bike enough, I would gently feather the brake to hopefully scrub off enough speed without eating more than the tires' traction pie has to give. On the next lap, I would adjust my riding style to compensate for insufficient engine braking, and after the session, I'd try to figure out what went wrong with the bike. | ||
| Ratsmc |
Let me clarify:'it works for me' doesn't mean it is the right way to do something. Just because you can use a blowtorch to make toast doesn't mean that you should. Certainly, a practiced hand can make toast a 1000 times with a blow torch but that doesn't mean that there isn't an increased risk in doing so. Maybe you won't burn the house down, in fact, you probably won't but why take the chance when there is a toaster sitting right there? | ||
| Dirty_john |
engine braking is a personal preference, much like choice of tyres and pressures - each to his own, it can depend on what your first bike was, two stroke or four stroke. I for one prefer no engine braking whatsoever, but there are those who would disagree | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
There are two ways to match engine rpm while decelerating- "blip" and "slip". The subject has been covered in riding schools, books, and many articles. There is no need for "validation"- it is fact. An overwhelming majority of riders use the "blip" method, and more power to them. A minority use the "slip" method, which requires more delicate input and a smoother riding style. I never had to learn the "slip" method because it's what comes naturally to me- I have used it since day one in my cars and motorcycles. I have tried, but have never been able to master the "blip" method- I just can't get the hang of it. | ||
| Dirty_john |
Blipping the throttle when changing down was really necessary for wide ratio gearboxes, typically old four and five speed gearboxes, I learnt to blip the throttle from early on and have always done so, even with close ratio boxes, makes the gearboxes/cluthces last a lot longer than any other method of changing down. |
