| Author | Message | ||
     Milleniumx1 |
When I ordered my new ECM, I was wondering what I'd think of the reduced engine braking since I quite liked the OEM amount. I ordered mine (stock, pump gas) as is off the shelf ... I can't really feel that much difference in engine braking, especially in the 5-6K'ish and below range. Seems somewhat less at higher revs, but not uncomfortably so. Mike | ||
| Dannybuell |
Jdugger - I don't understand what you are trying to describe, then. Me: I will try to get my line into the turn using two methods, engine braking and the front brakes. The start of a turn for me; engine rpm's adequate for accel/decel throttle steering torque, look into turn, lean and brake as necessary to move toward the line you want. I deal with the line I have and the line I want using engine braking and front brakes. Stock ECM: To get the line I want, it's a combination of drop the throttle a bit and front brake for oversteer. Race ECM: When I am trying to start my line I try to use the front brake to create a little oversteer into the apex and nothing happens the engine is dieseling forward with zero throttle! I am just braking against the engine and I am not on my line. That is when I pull in the clutch the front brake starts working and I finally get my line. The brakes will always seem more responsive when they are not working against the engine. Gear changes are easier with the E-B-R ECM, clutch engagement with a less than perfect RPM match is smooth where the stocker will jerk if you are off a bit. I would like to have the decel of the stocker and the accel smoothness of the E-B-R. Can this be done? What do I need to know to get to the next level? THX | ||
| Jdugger |
> What do I need to know to get to the next level? I'm lost on this one -- I guess I'd need to see it to know. Have you done a track day recently? Might be good to find a local coach and have him follow you around the track, perhaps video. I took some lessons with a local racer and it helped tremendously. Night and day kinds of changes in my riding. My first suspicion is you just aren't braking very hard, but it could be a thousand things, and frankly, it's probably a complicated formula of different issues coming together. | ||
| Dannybuell |
THX | ||
| Attweco |
@Jules: did you specify that you wanted lower engine braking when you ordered? No, I did not. Never occurred to me that I needed to. I would expect that a race-type ECM would be programmed for lower engine braking, by default. ...just out of interest what's your idle revs? Idle revs is 1400 rpm. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
"...I was thinking I could over ride the clutch micro switch so the system thought the clutch was in all the time. What other systems does the clutch engaged/disengaged control?" I assume there's a micro-switch on the clutch master-cylinder and this is what you mean. As well as the gear indication, it will lock out the starter motor if not in neutral. I can't think of anything else obvious it would be interlocked with. The clutch switch may not have any effect on engine braking though. I would have thought anything to do with control of engine braking would be triggered by throttle position (ie at closed %) and revs. How would the ECM effect engine braking? I'm assuming it would be through different mapping for the idle air control and injector opening at closed throttle. Would ignition timing on a closed throttle make any difference to engine braking? When my clutch slave cylinder was on the way out, it seemed like I had more engine braking (or it seemed like there was less once it was fixed). Has anybody wanting more engine braking tried disconnecting the vacuum hose to the clutch? Or putting a needle valve in the line? Funny how things change... When BMW released the K100 they proudly claimed how it had more engine braking because the ECM shut the injectors above 2000rpm(?) on a closed throttle. Now I feel old 'cause I remember that... | ||
| Jules |
I assume there's a micro-switch on the clutch master-cylinder and this is what you mean. As well as the gear indication, it will lock out the starter motor if not in neutral. I can't think of anything else obvious it would be interlocked with. I was assuming the OP meant he'd short the switch so the bike felt the clutch was pulled all the time, that'd give the -- gear indicator and not lock out the starter The clutch switch may not have any effect on engine braking though. I would have thought anything to do with control of engine braking would be triggered by throttle position (ie at closed %) and revs. me too How would the ECM effect engine braking? I'm assuming it would be through different mapping for the idle air control and injector opening at closed throttle. Would ignition timing on a closed throttle make any difference to engine braking? I am fairly sure it's the IAC settings that are used to control engine braking but others with far more knowledge will be able to confirm (or not) that When my clutch slave cylinder was on the way out, it seemed like I had more engine braking (or it seemed like there was less once it was fixed). Has anybody wanting more engine braking tried disconnecting the vacuum hose to the clutch? Or putting a needle valve in the line? That'as more likely to be because the "slipper" action was reduced or not working at all, it'd feel similar until you mismatch revs to wheel speed. Funny how things change... When BMW released the K100 they proudly claimed how it had more engine braking because the ECM shut the injectors above 2000rpm(?) on a closed throttle. } I'm sure on a big old bus like the K more engine braking would be a good thing, rolling up to cars in traffic it's useful. Riding quickly through bends I'd rather not have it upsetting things and control it all via the brakes and/or throttle. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
"That'as more likely to be because the "slipper" action was reduced or not working at all, it'd feel similar until you mismatch revs to wheel speed." That's what I was thinking. "I'm sure on a big old bus like the K..." Hehehe, they're a great old bus. I spent a lot of time on a friends 8-valve K100RS and grew quite fond of it. Tall and top-heavy, but great for demolishing big miles  . I don't really mind lots or little engine braking. Every bike has it's character. I can see the advantages in less engine braking though, and quite like my 1125R. It'll be interesting to see if it's any different when I get an Erik Buell Racing ECM. | ||
| Boogiman1981 |
granted i don't have a ebr ecm but with the stock one i did turn the fuel off on decel and the engine braking came to a complete stop. which was nice i liked that quick a bit let me maneuver with less suspension upsets on decel into a corner. however what i found was that i could no longer blip it when stopped(just a habit) and without careful planning of clutch release upon reaching a stop it would just stall out. what i am thinking is that i need to figure out how to set a rev point at which the fuel shut off occurs but not below like the bmw mentioned above say like no fuel above 2500rpm on decel but bring it back at 2500 so it won't stall when pulling the clutch on decel to come to a complete stop | ||
| Buell77 |
I have the Erik Buell Racing ecm and I really like the lack of engine braking. With the stock ecm if you'd let off the throttle it felt like the brakes were being applied. I did'nt like the way it downshifted either. Was difficult to blip the throttle to get everything to match up. When i installed the Erik Buell Racing ecm and took it for a ride i immediately noticed how much easier it was to downshift and ride in general. I really don't know why one would want lots of engine braking. Thats what the brakes are for. Its not a semi truck. | ||
| Jaimec |
Ever take C.L.A.S.S. with Reg Pridmore? You'd understand then. | ||
| Dirty_john |
I learned to ride in the mid seventies on wild two strokes with no engine braking, once you get used to it you can actually get round corners a lot quicker because the transition from trail braking to the apex (gently on he road officer) to power on can be managed easier, suspension in those days was very poor and rebound of the forks was controlled using the front brake as well as to steepen the steering head angle. Give the reduced engine braking a chance and it will reward you. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Ever take C.L.A.S.S. with Reg Pridmore? You'd understand then. Why don't you enlighten us? | ||
| Buell77 |
No I've never taken C.L.A.S.S. I'm not a pro by any means but I don't like engine braking at all. If it were explained or taught to me by a pro and it were beneficial then I'd learn to like it.  I never specified when I ordered my ecm but since Erik Buell Racing sends it out this way I would have to say its probably better to have less engine braking. | ||
| Jules |
this is an excerpt from one of Reg's lectures: How do you do it? Obviously, you can't just lean over at 45 degrees and slam the brakes on. This is an area where a good feel for your brakes and exceptional smoothness and finesse are essential for control. Most racers combine smooth front brake action with a sufficient quantity of engine braking to get the job done. Champions such as Miguel Duhamel and Nicky Hayden frequently "bring the rear wheel around" by overusing the engine's braking ability. They rev the engine, downshift two to three times, and lock up the rear wheel momentarily by feathering the clutch in and out. Bear in mind that track riding and street riding are completely different animals. (Message edited by jules on August 10, 2010) (Message edited by jules on August 10, 2010) | ||
| Jules |
The method mentioned above is obviously a pretty aggressive one, I'll happily lock the rear up momentarily going into a sharp turn just to get the attack angle right...normally if I have overcooked the entry a little.. Ideally you want everything as settled as possible when executingt he turn so the suspension has the opportunity to smooth out the surface irregularities and isn't already loaded in some way (by the brakes and/or engine braking). On the street some engine braking is "nice" when coasting up to traffic, and when you're not riding "hard". For me (just my opinion) I find that less engine braking is better when riding harder, my cornering speeds are improved as is my "smoothness". Maybe the Ducati-esque "selectable power delivery" would be nice... turn engine braking on when riding gently and off when riding more aggressively.. | ||
| Slaughter |
Keep in mind, in high performance braking, often the rear wheel is actually close to leaving the ground. Slipper clutches and reduced engine braking has become more of a norm. There are a few schools of thought out there on engine braking but Pridmore CLASS is geared to street riding. The fact is that heavy engine braking AND heavy brake usage can be truly "interesting" I daresay that controlling your braking going into and through turns by using the BRAKES is FAR MORE CONTROLLABLE than deliberately slipping the clutch by hand during deceleration. Again - think of the rear wheel leaving the ground coupled with engine braking. As others have said, these are "RACE" modules, not "CITY" or "CRUISE" (Message edited by slaughter on August 10, 2010) | ||
| Fast1075 |
I too learned much of my riding skills on highly tuned 2 strokes...strong engine braking is still an unnatural thing to me. I (as much as possible) rpm match and take care in gear selection...trail braking is natural to me as is being very smooth on exit throttle...the wide torque curve makes throttle control easy | ||
| Dannybuell |
I can think of a few cars with automatic transmissions where as you begin to brake and it feels as though you are braking against the transmission. Put it in neutral and the car stops faster and easier. At a 4000-5000 rpm engine speed entering a turn, I reduce or close the throttle, lean into the turn, put on the brakes and try to trail steer into the apex. Works well with the stock. With E-B-R trail braking is interrupted to get my front brakes I have to pull in the clutch. The E-B-R ECM closed throttle at these RPM's diesels stronger than the front brakes. Fast1075 - At what RPM does trail braking begin to work for you? | ||
| Fast1075 |
First, I practice "standard" throttle control...I try to never roll the throttle off in a turn...I do go to "Neutral" throttle in some turns...My primary use of trail braking is to use the rear brake to settle the suspension into the turn... I trail front brake sometimes but only in corners I am familiar with and I know have suitable traction and camber...I control throttle with thumb and index finger and brake with the other three...it allows better control. (for me at least). The question on rpm is a little off since I ride an XB, but I keep the revs at the base of the torque curve to allow good drive out of the corner without (when possible) having to upshift while turning since that REALLY upsets the chassis. | ||
| Jaimec |
This is how I like to ride on the STREET: http://www.pashnittours.com/thepace.html I've gotten quite used to running in a lower gear and controlling my speed by simply rolling on and rolling off the throttle. The brakes only come into play on hairpins (which are few and far between where I live). Might also explain why I seem to get far better life out of my brakes and tires than the others here based on what I've read. On the track, Keith Code's techniques RULE. On the STREET, however, Pridmore's emphasis on smoothness of operation work best for me. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
I thought a bit more about whether or not the ECM should have engine braking enabled, and here's my opinion on it. On any bike that has engine braking, I have the option to use that engine braking by completely closing the throttle, or to not use engine braking by relying on neutral throttle. If I am completely off of the throttle, that tells the bike that I want to slow down, not continue at the same rate of speed. On a bike that has no (or very little) engine braking, I don't have that option and must rely on the brakes to slow the bike. I'm a skilled-enough rider that I can choose between neutral throttle or closed throttle (for engine braking) and I prefer to have the choice available to me. Hence I want a bike that exhibits engine braking with the throttle closed. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Thefleshrocket - Exactly! | ||
| Buell77 |
Thefleshrocket- That makes a lot of sense. I havn't rode a bike with a lot of engine braking other than my CR. It felt weird to me but I rode it with no complaints. I didn't really understand how to use it properly but after your last post it makes perfect sense. I'd really like to try a Erik Buell Racing ecm with engine braking and compare the two. | ||
| Trafford |
The track is one thing.... the road is another. In European traffic conditions and riding now for many years, my personal preference is to have good engine braking. (Yes I was riding two strokes too.Its much more relaxed....I'm not hitting the brakes for every speed adjustment .....just using the throttle. I agree with Fleshrocket....I can use my skill to create no engine braking if I want it, by using Brain, hand, and judgment. I re-tuned my Race ECM to put the braking back. (Message edited by trafford on August 13, 2010) | ||
| Dirty_john |
Fast1075 - exactly what I said | ||
| Milleniumx1 |
Sign me up with Flesh ... Right on the money! But like I said, I noticed very little (if any) difference in engine braking between OEM and my off-the-shelf E B R module. Mike | ||
| Jaimec |
Flesh "gets" what I'm talking about. Rolling off the throttle doesn't necessarily mean letting go of it. Just as you roll it on, you can roll it OFF. There are an INFINITE number of positions between Full Throttle and No Throttle. And that is the point of Pridmore's training as well. | ||
| Pmjolly |
There is a huge difference between the stock ECM and my new Erik Buell Racing race ECM. I have only taken it out for a short ride to make sure it works. I always used the engine braking to decelerate when approaching traffic lights or turns. I had to lay into the brakes when I had an unexpected total lack of engine braking the first time I stopped. Mine still has some engine braking, but it is only at much higher RPMs. I only ride on the street. I don't want to come roaring into traffic lights at high RPM just to slow down. I guess I'll be using my brakes more than I used to. I took my 1125R on a road trip a few months ago to the Ozark Mountains. I had a blast carving the corners all day one day. I barely used the brakes at all. I was riding at a spirited pace using the engine for all of my acceleration and most of my deceleration. I believe I will eventually get used to the change. I am about to go out and have some fun with it and see how it works. | ||
| Dannybuell |
For $25 Erik Buell Racing will reflash your ECM to meet your personal desires. |
