| Author |
Message |
    
Kevin_stevens
| | Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 03:20 am: | 
|
I think you're looking at the wrong article. The MasterBike article is from June. There *is* no selective data - fastest lap is what they award the title on. You can look at the fastest rider average or some other numbers, but they don't change the order much.
Are you sure you're not referencing the *JULY* CW article, which is an on/off track evaluation with *subjective* scoring of many of the same bikes?
I don't believe the results support your argument. The BMW is *not* "more expensive than any of the Japanese bikes by a good margin". I showed several posts ago that, feature for feature, it is $400 more than a CBR. And it makes about 30HP more. How many people are willing to pay $400 for 30RWHP - raise your hands. Everybody? Ok, thought so.
The base bike costs $400 more. The ABS costs exactly the same as on the Honda, and is optional. Traction control costs $500 more, and is optional. That's a *smoking* deal. The quick shifter costs $450 more and is optional. That's about what the aftermarket QS cost.
Ducati is heading the "price of performance bikes" by *ten thousand dollars*, like always, and you claim that BMW is throwing things into a cocked hat because they are $400 more than the Honda?!?
I think you're 180 degrees wrong - BMW is going to force the Japanese bikes to step up to the plate and quit screwing around with A/B/C power cut modes. *Everybody* will benefit.
And I had no idea of your "primary point", you just keep throwing out objectively inaccurate statements like "IMO, the Aprilia and the Beemer are in a different class just based on price. I probably could have guessed the results without the article just by looking at the MSRP for each bike. And remarkably enough, the bike's price lines up perfectly with the results."
WTF do you expect - you're selecting two bikes $5K apart in price and saying they're in "a different class", while ignoring two other bikes $5K *more* than the high dollar one, and throwing out a bike that's about the same price as the low dollar one? And then you're accusing *me* of selecting data?!? I just posted the test results and added the prices.
KeS
(Message edited by kevin_stevens on May 23, 2010) |
Nightripper
| | Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 11:05 am: |
|
the real point is even the gsxr1000 that came out in 2001 has more power than anyone can safely use on public roads either racing light to light or down any twisty roads.
Thats why alot of ppl like the xb buells.
Last night on the mexcum auto auction on TV the host made a good comment about a 289 mustang shelby corbra that came out in the late sixties, that is that the auto companies designed the cars to have the most accelleration from 0-60 mph, as they determined that the buyer would be able to leagally get the best enjoyment of the acceration from light to light that way and still stay on the leagal side of the speed limit. The car could also do 135 mph if you wanted it.
In comparison the what bmw has done to the sport bikes like ferrai coming up with a 1 million dollar car that will do 300 mph and all the other italian super cars will only do 250mph.
So unless your jay leno or a someone who is super rich, no one really cares. Its only bragging rights.
Right now I have 3 bikes a 07 gsxr1000, xb12r -2010, and a 90 hp. 1200 screaming eagle sportster.
So far I like riding the sportster the best as it has alot more torque than the xb or the gsxr and I have alot more fun blasting from light to light with out atracting the cops.
The thing with the gsxr1000 is that its to fast, you have to constantly feather or be light on the gas to avoid going 40mph over the speed limit all the time.
So its like driving a formula 1 car on the street, totally useless.
And in my state and other ppl I talk to all the local and state cops are all out in full force hiding everywhere and giving out as many tickets as they can.
So I could just picture all the fines and legal fees if they catch me doing a 100 mph.
The good thing BMW has done is to come up with the abs and traction control that will help the bikes handle, but I think the extra hp it has is useless and unpracticle |
Kevin_stevens
| | Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 01:59 pm: |
|
Well, something about it is making it 1.5 seconds faster on a 120 second course than the other bikes, and by all accounts it isn't the chassis, which is ok but nothing special. So I don't see how you can say the power is useless and unpractical. I have a friend who is engaged in a racing effort with this bike. Their *first* flying lap in competition with the new bike they set the track record at Buttonwillow.
Your Ferrari example also escapes me as the S1000RR goes just about exactly as fast as the other superbikes, 186mph +/- a bit for accuracy.
KeS
(Message edited by kevin_stevens on May 23, 2010) |
Nightripper
| | Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 02:39 pm: |
|
what road or street can you do a 180-200mph on except montana or the autoban in germany.
In the real world if you race a friend from one place to the another. On local roads and high ways. Even in a 30 minute race so the bmw will get there 30 seconds before the gsxr1000 provided they hit the same traffic lights.
So unless you are racing on the track and are a professional, who really cares.
Young street dorks can argue all they want how they have the fastest bike made , but only till next year and in reality no one really cares how fast your bike is.
The guy with the hottest looking or fastest bike isn't going attract all the girls , or get more attention etc.
In the real world it really depends who is riding the bike or driving the car. Not what the vehicle is or how fast it is.
In summary most 600cc sport bikes have more power and capability then any average rider can fully utilize on the street.
So for real world street driving the difference between a 160hp sport bike to a 180 hp makes no real difference. |
Kevin_stevens
| | Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 02:43 pm: |
|
Well, true, but as you say, that's been the case since at least 2001 so it seems an odd time to get all excited about it.
I bought the BMW because of the electronics, not because of the power per se. In fact I had a deposit on one long before the performance numbers came out.
I use them every day as a riding tool to test the surface/traction limits and learn how to control the bike, and they've already made me a more proficient rider even on the 1125. Keith Code reports that for his SuperBike school crashes are down 2/3 from the ZX-6s he had been running.
KeS
(Message edited by kevin_stevens on May 23, 2010) |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 03:57 pm: |
|
The MasterBike article is from June. There *is* no selective data - fastest lap is what they award the title on
Finally got back to my magazine. There IS a category called "Rider Rating" that apppears to be subjective. Why would they even include such a rating if it's somehow not incorporated in the final results? If its just a lap time chase, then only post laptimes.
Also, as proof the Rider Rating seems to have figured into at least one scenario, please explain the finishing positions of the MV Agusta and RC-8.
RC-8 (final ranking of #4) and the MV Agusta F-4 (final ranking of #3). The RC-8 had faster "best lap" and faster "Quick6 Average" yet it still finished behind the MV Agusta....
...however the riders rated the MV Agusta almost a full point higher than the RC-8...
I am not sure the Rider Rating itself pulled the MV over the RC-8 in the final standings, but it seems very plausible.
Cycleworld should have included a quick explanation (formula) of the final rankings. It's not obviously only lap times, otherwise the RC-8 would have finished in front of the MV Agusta. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 05:22 pm: |
|
Same scenario btw the Honda (#6) and Suzuki (#7). Rider rating 2.4 points better for the Honda, although the Honda had slower lap times in both lap time categories. |
Kevin_stevens
| | Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 08:01 pm: |
|
"Also, as proof the Rider Rating seems to have figured into at least one scenario, please explain the finishing positions of the MV Agusta and RC-8."
Hmm. That's a good point. I'll see if I can find out by some other magazine's reporting. Tx for pointing that out.
KeS
Edit: Here, rider input is 20% apparently. Note this is old information (this year they only ran the Open class, for example), but it's the best I can find:
Masterbike is a contest held on an annual basis to determine the best sport bikes of the year. Motociclismo, a Spanish sport bike magazine, invites cooperating magazines from all over the world (In Moto and Motosprint for Italy, Motociclismo Spain, Motociclismo Brazil, Motorrad, PS, Kickstart, MCN, Australian MCN, Cycle World, Motosprint, In Moto, Moto, Motociclismo Mexico, Motociclismo Portugal, Bike, Bike India, and Motorcyclist) and motorcycle manufacturers as well to join this pure racetrack comparison test. Categories are broken into Supersport, Superbike, and Maxisport. Winners are determined by a rating that is the attribution of the score for the best lap time overall (40%), the fastest lap set for each rider (40%) and the individual rating by each rider (20%). Only the winners of Supersport, Superbike and Maxisport class reach the final comparison where an overall Masterbike winner is chosen for the year.
(Message edited by kevin_stevens on May 23, 2010) |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 10:51 pm: |
|
The ratings you found from last year seem consistent with the findings regarding the test in question. |
Ratsmc
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 12:38 am: |
|
Kevin, I am looking through this article right now and I cannot find the lap times you posted. The ones I show are totally different. Perhaps you got a page I didn't? The ranking I posted was what is listed as the final scoring for the bikes.
I absolutely agree that riders will benefit from the improved electronics and I am thrilled to see them being done well. However, my concern is that the price of bikes just went up a step. Yes, the BMW has a base price near that of a Honda but the bike that put in the fast laps was not the base model and was $2000 more expensive.
Yes, the Japanese manufacturers will have to step up their game in order to compete but BMW and Aprilia just gave them the green light to step up the prices as well. |
Kevin_stevens
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 01:07 am: |
|
p. 41, it's that same table you are taking the rankings from. Best lap is column 2, rider rating is column 5, the ranking is over in the last column.
KeS |
Kirb
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 09:39 am: |
|
I agree with the one comment that most people can't use the capabilites of a 600cc bike...THAT ISN'T WHAT SELLS 1000cc BIKES! Good press and good numbers sell liter bikes. Right or wrong, it doesn't matter.
BMW, a company who historicly has quirky and expensive bikes, decides to bring their brains and directly compete at something Japan and Italy were usually the best at. They broght the whole liter class bike market up a few notches with their first attempt at a price that isn't BMW typical. Bravo. This from a guy who was NEVER a BMW fan.
The HP is insane, but also putting equipment behind it to make it useful and bring any rider short of professional up in skill and safety. I was impressed with every report I read on the bike.
You can discount the masterbike results for whatever reason you like, but it displays most of the information in front of you to make your own choice along with rider's impressions.
The BMW will kick the others back to the engineering room to compete. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 10:01 am: |
|
I agree with the one comment that most people can't use the capabilites of a 600cc bike...THAT ISN'T WHAT SELLS 1000cc BIKES! Good press and good numbers sell liter bikes. Right or wrong, it doesn't matter.
One other thing sells sportsbikes, and that is looks.
A survey recently suggested that around 80% of sportsbike buyers were heavily influenced by styling, and that if power and weight figures were comparable then styling/colour choice would make a person buy one make over another. This of course takes no account of brand loyalty, but does go some way to explain why the 1125R sold so badly despite having decent power/weight/price credentials compared to the opposition. It also explains why Italian bikes still sell very well in spite of all logic that says they shouldn't be in the same league as the big 4 Japanese manufacturers.
BMW also found initial reluctance from buyers to their 'idiosynchratic' styling cues on the S1000RR although buyers are now warming to the lop sided look. |
Kirb
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 11:32 am: |
|
Looks always will play a roll in a bike purchase. I don't care how capable a bike is, I won't touch it if I don't like it sitting in my garage.
That is why I don't get the B-king, new V-max, and 'busa. Three bikes that could be EXACTLY what I want, but would never purchase.
The Italians are very sensitive to styling. The last guy at Ducati took the boot because of 2 styling failures (999 and multistrada). The lure of the history, style, sound, and performance does keep the Italians in the mix. They make some pretty cool stuff.
The Buell isn't for everyone. I don't see it as an ugly bike at all, but others do. The B2 would have moved away from the pods, but it came 3 years too late.} |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 12:33 pm: |
|
So for real world street driving the difference between a 160hp sport bike to a 180 hp makes no real difference.
You are very correct. The ONLY place these differences make a difference is at the edge of the performance envelope--ie, with expert riders.
There are some sidenotes in the article that make it very evident the slower testers (ie, more average riders) had much more success of some of the "dogs" of the test--I know the Yami was mentioned specfically. It doesn't surprise me the twins and the crossplane crank of the Yami are more effective for the the normal riders and can we extrapolate to being better for the street as wel? |
Kevin_stevens
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 01:29 pm: |
|
"That is why I don't get the B-king, new V-max, and 'busa. Three bikes that could be EXACTLY what I want, but would never purchase."
Have you looked at the Triumph Rocket III?
KeS |
Kirb
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 02:26 pm: |
|
KeS,
I picked 3 bikes I thought were BFU off the top of my head. My statement would imply that I would be in the market for a bike like those when I am not. The R3 isn't as ugly as the others by far. Not eactly my thing, but not that ugly.
My next bike might be a KTM 990 adventure. Some don't like the style, but I think it is the best rounded bike and a decent price. Better than a BMW GS? In the catagories I like, yes it is. |
Dirty_john
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 01:03 pm: |
|
Trojan - must disagree, a way a bike looks has never influenced me otherwise I may have bought a "pretty" jap UJM instead of the 1125R - its engineering and handling that matter, not even top speed.
But maybe not to the majority of the great unwashed out there. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 01:20 pm: |
|
quote:Trojan - must disagree, a way a bike looks has never influenced me
Problem is, you and I are the minority. The majority purchase their bike based on looks first. Second place is the spec sheet. But the majority of these "riders" barley ride. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 01:46 pm: |
|
But the majority of these "riders" barley ride.
Garage ornaments. |
Kevin_stevens
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2010 - 02:27 pm: |
|
There was a liter bike shootout in Roadracing World recently (BMW sent me a copy yesterday) that addresses a number of the points from this thread; US spec, MV relevance, testing protocol info, objective vs subjective criteria, etc. Jeremy Toye and Chris Ulrich were their testers. Recommend it to those looking for further information.
KeS |
Jng1226
| | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 12:09 am: |
|
Motorcycle USA also had their 2010 literbike shootout with similar results:
Track shootout: http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/9/6843/Motorcycle-Ar ticle/2010-Superbike-Smackdown-VII-Track.aspx
Street shootout: http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/9/6912/Motorcycle-Ar ticle/2010-Superbike-Smackdown-VII-Street.aspx
Jeff |
Jng1226
| | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 12:13 am: |
|
Also, the 2010 MV F4 has an MSRP of $18,500. The previous model year and last generation was $24,995. Quite a bargain for an apparently much improved model. I still like my 2007 F4 1000R better 
Jeff |
|
