| Author | Message | ||
     Crazyhawk99 |
Picked up my new CR the other day and the dealer said it had 20W50 in it. I will probably do an oil change after the first 100 miles and since it is still pretty cool here (below 40F), I thought about using 10W40 at least until the first scheduled service. Curious what grades fellow board members are using. I know that threads on here tend to get passionate and oil related threads on any board often get that way. My intention is not to spool anyone up, just learn from everyones experience. Thanks for your contribution in advance! | ||
| Keef |
Look in the owners manual,I personally use 20 50 only.. | ||
| Xnoahx |
I stick with what Buell recomends, HD Syn3 | ||
| Crazyhawk99 |
Keef, I read the owner's manual before the post. I know that I can use 10W40 or 20W50, I am just asking what other members are using. Perhaps some have personal experience with one over the other. | ||
| Blackflash |
I run 10w40 as fall approaches in ohio into early spring /mid spring. 20w50 in the late spring into summer /mid fall. But as the other posted .Go by the service manual and your location. Although I would think to brake a engine in you would want lighter oil.I changed mine at 200 miles with 10w40 and ran that till 1800 miles then went back to 20w50.I hope this was helpful.I haven't burned a drip of oil so far?18k and still running like a rape ape. Another note If you ever have your exhaust off look at the bottom of your engine.There is i believe a 6 bolt cover and its shaped wierd .You cant miss it.Take it off and you will noticed the oil pump filter screen.It disassembles very easily.Clean your filter.I found clutch and paper debris all over my filter from the engine assembally.This could starve your pump.The cover has a rubber oring formed seal so no replacement will be necessary. Just bolt it up after you clean the screen.I hope this was helpful too.It was very easy.Just as easy as changing a automatic transmission screen on a car.Actually it was easier. (Message edited by blackflash on February 20, 2010) | ||
| Easyrider |
Ask any Jap or Italian dealer (aprillia) etc etc what they use for oil, It aint't 20W-50 not 1 of them ... | ||
| Duggram |
OK Dris, what oil do you use? | ||
| Cptncreme |
I use the 10-50 castrol rs 4t. | ||
| Crazyhawk99 |
Flash, That is kinda what I was thinking of doing. Same rational. Dris, I had wondered the same thing. Do you happen to know what the oil grade recommendation is for the KTM RC-8? Greg | ||
| Crazyhawk99 |
}I stick with what Buell recomends, HD Syn3 The $8-$10 they charge in the states is reasonable for a synthetic oil. Only problem is in Germany you will pay $25-$30 a quart for Syn3. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Easyrider, EVERY Japanese sportbike that I've ever checked the manual on recommends 10W40 or 20W50. 10W40 is usually the first recommendation, with 20W50 as a secondary if the bike will be ridden when the temp is about freezing. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that no Jap bikes recommend 20W50. In my other new motorcycles, I've always broken them in using 10W40 dino car oil, changing it 50 miles and 600 miles. Then at approximately 1500 miles, I switch to Mobil1 15W50 synthetic car oil. The 15W50 works almost as well as 10-weight when it's cold--it's fine down to and below freezing temperatures, but gives the added protection of 50-weight when the engine gets hot, such as idling during the summer months. In addition, it is completely safe for wet clutches--my '03 GSX-R1000 has more than 20K miles on it using Mobil1 15W50 exclusively after break-in and the clutch still works great. I say "in my other new motorcycles" because my 1125R is under warranty and it would be irresponsible to admit to using oil that could theoretically allow the manufacturer to void the warranty, even if there is no conceivable reason for the oil to cause any engine-related problems. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
SYN3 is semi-synthetic, but is priced as if it were a fully-synthetic. Additionally, it's produced by Citgo (Petróleos de Venezuela), a state-owned oil company run by President Hugo Chávez- an anti-american, nationalist-socialist megalomaniac. Buy it if you want to support this dangerous crack-pot. The most important thing to remember about oil is to use the most viscous (thickest) oil you can based on the manufacturer-approved weights and the lowest ambient temperature you will be riding in. The second-most important thing to remember about oil is to make sure your engine is up to operating temperature before putting it under load. Oil's operating temperature is not the same as coolant temp- oil takes longer to heat up. Oil is thick when cold and that's where most engine wear occurs, but thin oil loses viscosity quickly with heat. Thicker oil retains its viscosity better at operating temperature, so choose an oil with the highest operating weight (second number) but having a winter number (W) that matches your lowest ambient temperature. The "work zone" of an engine where oil is at ideal viscosity is between 194F (90C) and 266F (130C)- below this oil is too thick, above it too thin. When the engine oil temp is below 194F, it should not be lugged or placed under load... put simply- WARM YOUR BIKE UP! Follow the numbers: my '08 XB12R manual states a 10W-40 should be used if the lowest ambient temperature is 40F (4C) or lower, while a 20W-50 is fine for 40F or higher. I live in Florida, so all of my bikes have always used 20W-50. Because it's hot here, the winter weight rarely comes into play- it's the hot end of the spectrum we worry about. Regardless, it is just as important to warm the engine properly here as it is anywhere else. For in-bewteen climates, it would also be acceptable to run a 15W-50, which splits the difference- it's a 50 weight oil with a lower winter weight rating. And, of course, a fully-synthetic will out-perform both a semi-syn and mineral oil. For break-in, use a quality JASO mineral oil in 10W-40 (below 40F) and change it out at the first service. After that, go with a quality fully-synthetic if you're following the factory maintenance schedule (if using mineral make sure you get it out of there every 3k miles- it won't last the OEM recommended interval). | ||
| Redliner172 |
I use Royal Purple Max-Cycle 20W50 in my 1125R. It's a little pricey though, like 15 bucks a quart. Plus I change my oil every 1000 miles because I run the bike really hard...or at least did when it was warm outside. I know a few AMA racers for Buell who also swear by it for their race bikes AND personal 1125's. Just preference I guess though. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Redbuelljunkie, Having the engine oil up to at least 194F before putting the engine under load simply isn't a reasonable option, for several reasons. My wife's 300C with the 5.7L Hemi has oil and coolant temp readouts. The engine coolant gets up to operating temp (~200F) pretty quickly--under 10 minutes of light driving. The engine oil, however, takes much longer to get up to engine temp--20-30 minutes under light driving, but more quickly when run harder. I have NEVER seen oil temp exceed coolant temp on the 300C except during prolonged hard acceleration, and even then the oil only gets maybe 5-10F warmer than the coolant. Considering that the 1125R motor seems to operate around 165-175F when getting good air flow (IE being ridden at a moderate speed, at least), I don't think the oil will ever climb above that temperature. Sure, the oil might get close to 200F if the bike is left idling in warm weather for a while, but I think once the bike is moving and the engine coolant temp drops, the oil temp will drop too. Let me clarify--I'm not questioning that the least engine wear will occur when the engine oil is at its optimum temperature, just that getting to that temperature before putting the engine under much load would require a LOT of warm up time. I do agree with letting an engine warm up before giving it any serious load, but I just wait until the coolant is up to its standard operating temperature. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Redliner172, even if you did 1000 non-stop miles of track time, your Royal Purple shouldn't be even remotely close to worn out. There is pretty much nothing that you can do to an engine to make a good quality synthetic oil wear out at less than 3000, 4000, or even 5000 miles. | ||
| Ottobotz |
-Easyrider, I guess you use MOTUL, but what weight and is that syn. or min.? | ||
| Family_buells |
Redbuell Junkie, You're not mentioning the fact that the oil is a dual viscosity oil. At low temps, the oil molecules are long and thin so they flow easier. At higher temps, they curl up into more of a ball shape and are more resistant to flow. The advantage of dual viscosity oils is that they flow better at low temperatures because of viscosity improvers (VI)that make a low viscosity oil behave like a high viscosity oil at high temps. As the oil loses its VI, then it starts to behave like a lower viscosity oil at all temperatures. It's important to note that a dual viscosity oil is made as a low viscosity oil that thickens up at high temps, not a high viscosity oil that gets thin at low temperature. That means that as it wears out you get less protection at high temps. For this reason, many racers use a straight viscosity oil so that they maintain viscosity better under racing conditions. IMO, what you oil you use should depend on how often you change your oil. So what it boils down to is that if you change your oil often, you can safely use "lower" quality oils (e.g. conventional or semi-synthetic) with no risk of damaging your engine. If you want longer oil change intervals, then higher quality oils will be better. The bad combinations would be : Lower quality oils and a long oil change interval which would risk accelerated engine wear, or using high quality oil and a short change interval which would be a waste of money because the oil has not degraded significantly. Racing is a bit different though. On my SV racebike I changed oil after about 5 hours of use, more because it was dirty from racing (think lots of combustion byproducts) than because it wore out. Another thing to note is that since viscosity is a measure of a fluid's internal friction, so higher viscosity oils have higher internal friction. If you use an oil that is higher viscosity than necessary, then it is costing you horsepower unnecessarily. That in itself could be a sneaky way of artificially boosting dyno numbers  | ||
| Blackflash |
  Had the book out today so i took some pictures. | ||
| Blur |
Thanks for the info on the oil screen Blackflash. I'll keep that in mind when I'm switching out my exhaust. | ||
| Easyrider |
Ottobotz, yes 10W-40 1125 series , and 20W-50 for the XB series | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
At low temps, the oil molecules are long and thin so they flow easier. At higher temps, they curl up into more of a ball shape and are more resistant to flow. Although it seems like this is the case, that's not how it works. As temperature decreases, an oil's viscosity increases (gets thicker), and as temperature increases, an oil's viscosity decreases (gets thinner). The advantage of dual viscosity oils is that they flow better at low temperatures because of viscosity improvers (VI)that make a low viscosity oil behave like a high viscosity oil at high temps. Not exactly. VI's are added to straight-weight oils in order to keep them from getting too thick when cold, and too thin when hot. The coiled polymers actually help keep the oil fluid at extremely low temperatures (lowering the W rating), and unwind into long-strand molecular chains to keep the oil form thinning as much as it would without VI additives. There is no such thing as an oil that "thickens" as it heats up- all motor oils are thicker when cold, and thin as they are heated. For this reason, many racers use a straight viscosity oil so that they maintain viscosity better under racing conditions. Traditionally, this was the best solution based upon oil technology. Race conditions are very different than street conditions, and racers would use the heaviest possible straight-weight oil because it provided the best protection for their specific use. All oils lose viscosity when heated, and racers realized that running a heavier weight oil gave the best protection at high temps- it retained more viscosity than a lighter weight oil. Additionally, race engines are not subject to the same types of stresses as street bikes- race bikes are warmed properly, undergo race stresses for relatively short periods of time, and are maintained/rebuilt often. Some would argue race engines have it easy compared to daily commuting use. Prior to modern additives that help keep oil from thinning as much when hot, the best solution was using a thicker, straight-weight oil. It's no longer the best solution. Another thing to note is that since viscosity is a measure of a fluid's internal friction, so higher viscosity oils have higher internal friction. If you use an oil that is higher viscosity than necessary, then it is costing you horsepower unnecessarily. Viscosity is the measure of a fluid's resistance to flow: a thicker fluid has more resistance to flow, and therefore has a higher viscosity, thinner=less resistance/lower viscosity. Also, viscosity is affected by both heat and pressure. It is important to remember, though, that as an engine lubricant motor oil must have film strength because it is used as a bearing surface. An oil's bearing surface is dependent upon its viscosity- as an oil thins it also loses film strength, which makes the loss of viscosity a double whammy (really bad ju-ju). The bottom line is that all oils are thick when cold, but having an oil too thin at operating temperature is worse than being thick when cold. Using the heaviest weight oil approved by the manufacturer provides the best engine protection when combined with proper maintenance and operation (including warming the engine sufficiently). The SAE viscosity ratings cause some confusion also. The winter rating (W) does not correspond to a weight- it's a number chosen to rate an oil's ability to flow at a specific low temperature (typically 0C). The criteria used for winter ratings is different from the operating weight rating- it includes mechanical pumping/pressure tests not used in the others. This is how it causes the confusion- a 5W-40 does not flow like a 5 weight oil when cold and a 40 weight when hot. It does pass the SAE rating of 5W, and therefore flows better than a 10W or 20W when cold- but it is actually thicker than 40 weight at 0C! The SAE operating weight (second number) is a measure of the oil's actual viscosity at high temp (typically 100C), and therefore a direct representation of its weight at operating temperature. What's most impressive is the performance of modern, high-quality 100% fully-synthetic motor oils. The Group IV and V (Polyalphaoelfins and Esters) synthetics perform so well that they can actually surpass the SAE standards for multiple ratings, and are, for all practical purposes, straight-weight oils that outperform multi-grade oils. It's really amazing stuff. To see some interesting charts that show how thick oil actually is when cold, how long it takes to get to operating temp, and how quickly it loses viscosity when hot, see here: http://www.widman.biz/English/Tables/Graph-motors. html | ||
| Lastonetherebuys |
Ask any Jap or Italian dealer (aprillia) etc etc what they use for oil, It aint't 20W-50 not 1 of them thats funny my yamaha that I had be for my 1125 said directly in the manuel to run 20w 50 | ||
| Keef |
You can buy a case of 12 of royal purple max-cycle 20-50w from amazon for 139.95 thats 11.66 a quart... | ||
| Crazyhawk99 |
Keef, Trust me, if I could order oil online I would be all over it. Problem is, I am overseas at a military APO address and UPS does not ship to APO and USPS will not ship oil. Here in Germany, synthetic oil runs about $30 per liter (little more than 1 qt for those metrically challenged). We can buy oil on the military base at prices close to "normal", but the selection is limited to mostly Mobil 1 products. They do carry Castrol dino motorcycle oil. One of the unseen prices to pay for being in the military. I am not complaining, just explaining my oil challenges. | ||
| Crazyhawk99 |
Flash, Thanks for the info on the oil screen. No doubt that could easily be a catastrophic problem. I am curious how many others will be found in the condition yours was. Keep the good info coming! | ||
| Easyrider |
Lastonethere Oke, you get me here, 2 cylinders please... And preferable rotax engines or look a like, And Yamaha uses (i think) a full synthetic 20W-50 not the Oil HD is recommending for the Buell. | ||
| Family_buells |
Redbuelljunkie, Thanks for the corrections. However, as I understand it, many oils are lower viscosity oils that are "improved" using additives to make them into higher viscosity oils. Then when the additives are lost, they become thinner like their true viscosity. I do agree that modern synthetics are much better than conventional oils though. It makes sense that instead of modifying something that doesn't quite work the way you want it to (conventional), you can custom-build an oil out of synthetic components that leave out the junk that you don't want. (Message edited by family_buells on February 22, 2010) | ||
| Cataract2 |
Crazy, I run Mobil 1 15/50 in my 1125R. I'm curious, what is close to normal on base over there for that oil? I'm told to get gas on base as it's much more reasonable than off. Also, what is that oil screen that Black posted about? I've heard about it, but that's it. | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Problem is, I am overseas at a military APO address and UPS does not ship to APO and USPS will not ship oil. I have shipped Amsoil to a customer at an APO address in Turkey via USPS without any issue- didn't cost as much as I expected, either. And Yamaha uses (i think) a full synthetic 20W-50 not the Oil HD is recommending for the Buell. H-D only recommends SYN3 because it's what they sell. If they had a full-synthetic then that's what they would recommend (and for a pretty penny, too). However, as I understand it, many oils are lower viscosity oils that are "improved" using additives into higher viscosity oils. You are correct- synthetic additives allow the base oil the flow better when cold and keep from thinning as quickly when hot. They do not change the base oil's viscosity, instead they extend the performance envelope at the low and high end of the spectrum. Because the polymers are long chains of molecules, when subjected to the stresses inside an engine (even worse in a wet-sump transmission) they will eventually shear and become less effective. When this happens the oil loses the ability to perform at the two extremes, and starts to break down at an accelerated rate. This is where the differences in mineral and synthetics becomes very apparent. A mineral base oil has many impurities that work against it- sulfur and nitrogen compounds, oxygen, carbon residues, metals, asphalts and paraffins. Although a lot of effort goes into refining-out as much of these impurities as possible, because mineral oil is a complex mix of hydrocarbon compounds and it will always contain impurities. It is these impurities that limit the effectiveness of synthetic additives: for example- paraffin waxes make mineral oil gel as it cools; sulfur, oxygen, and trace metals cause corrosion inside the engine, and the additives have to fight these side-effects as well as do their job to improve the base oil's performance. When the additives break down, the base mineral oil that's left is not something you want in your engine. Fully-synthetic oils do not contain the impurities found in mineral base oils. Synthetics are chemically synthesized in the laboratory, so the manufacturer has complete control over what (and what does not) go into the oil. Because it's my business to know about Amsoil, I usually refer to it as a "boutique" oil manufacturer- each oil is designed using the highest quality chemicals to perform to the highest standard in each particular application. It truly is "tailor made" oil and the performance shows it. Since high-quality fully-synthetics do not have to battle with their own impurities, they focus on the task at hand- protecting your engine. They are superior down to the molecular level, and there's no mineral or semi-syn that can do what they do. Interestingly, did you know that in the US a manufacturer can label an oil "synthetic" even if it is 80% mineral and 20% synthetic? Have SYN3 tested at a lab and you might discover that it's 80% H-D 360 mineral oil and 20% synthetic additives- not very reassuring, is it? Bottom line- use the highest-quality fully-synthetic oil in the heaviest weight approved by your manufacturer for the lowest ambient temperature you ride in, and warm your bike up before putting a heavy load on it. Change your oil based on manufacturer suggested intervals (or higher if your oil and/or riding style allows it) and you will get superior engine performance/cleanliness/longevity and should never see an oil-related engine failure. | ||
| Lastonetherebuys |
Easyrider first off don't assume that just because I rode a yamaha I rode something like an R6 or one of their other I4's. The bike I rode was the roadstar warrior, a 1700 cc air cooled V-Twin. yes it is no rotax, but it is 2 cyls. second your statement that I quoted was }Ask any Jap or Italian dealer (aprillia) etc etc what they use for oil, It aint't 20W-50 not 1 of them ... seeing as my Yamaha was one that fell directly in your statement by being a "Jap" bike and it did require 20w 50 oil. |
