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Hildstrom
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 - 01:22 pm: | 
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In which case, I would counter with 's/10W-40/5W-40/g', which is good for starting below 20F.
But then I would have agreed with you because using this grade oil at those temperatures is not officially documented anywhere I have seen.  |
Afhans
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 - 01:40 pm: |
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I bought my '08 in December, new. They had to truck it to me down here from Germany. I was in Egypt when it got to my place so it sat a week before I could get it. The day I got the bike it started with no problem. I went and gassed it up. Still not problem. 10 minutes later I went out to the MSF course (I am a RiderCoach) where a class was being held and taught by two of my buddies to show off my new toy. I parked it, everyone looked at and when I went to go NOTHING. So one of the STUDENTS gave me a jump. Then I went to do the "box" you know the figure 8. Well I stalled it. Talk about embarrassing! I let the bike run for an hour in the parking lot and I have had no issues since. It started this morning, like all mornings, in the 27 degree cold too. Now it starts for 3 seconds every morning, then I need to hit the button again. But this is no issue for me. |
Jules
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 - 02:39 pm: |
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I wish I'd taken the plate off the back that says "Up yours Harley Davidson" before I handed it over now... My dealer experience has been superb so far  |
Jules
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 - 06:14 pm: |
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I've just had another thought... Although the bike's VERY low miles (now 70 in total after taking the long way in to work this morning) the computer showed fuel "economy" of 22MPG and that's with me running it in and being very gentle..
Most of the time, when the bike is started it produces a LOT of white smoke, normally for at least 5 mins if left to idle..
I suspect she's running way to rich, the AFV front and rear was 100 when I checked the other day... i guess it might all be related.. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 - 07:00 pm: |
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The white "smoke" is steam, its moisture evaporating. It is normal, and has nothing to do with your AFV.
quote:In which case, I would counter with 's/10W-40/5W-40/g', which is good for starting below 20F.
Way to not get the programming joke |
Ccryder
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 27, 2010 - 07:32 pm: |
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The white "smoke" is actually water vapor and not indicative of the mixture lean or rich. |
Jules
| | Posted on Thursday, January 28, 2010 - 03:29 am: |
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I know it's fairly typical of a cold vehicle to burn off the water vapour like that but the sheer volume of this is quite a surprise..
I can only assume that the very short journey is the cause, and perhaps to an extent the way the exhaust is manufactured (no packing material, just lots of baffle plates)which "traps" more condensation.
Either way, it's no biggie |
Moxin
| | Posted on Thursday, January 28, 2010 - 03:54 am: |
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I have had some experience with my 2008 1125R. in the beginning (have had the bike for 2 years) I could occasionally flood the bike. It seems that the timings in the ECM was the culprit back then and did have a strong negative influence on Idle. Especially when cold which it would stop if you even looked at the throttle. I was instructed to remove the fuse which controlled the fuelpump and crank it over, hopefully until it started and then immediately died again. Put the fuse back and then just start without even a look at the throttle. After a few ECM upgrades the idle and smoothness have improved much. The ECM error in the first place was, which I was told, due to metric systems conversion error.
Take a little chat with you vendor to see if you can upgrade that.
PS: It did also sort some Battery life issues aswell, like shorter fan running time etc.DS.
My 2 cents.... |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Thursday, January 28, 2010 - 09:45 am: |
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The flash point is a very good one. I'm running the most current flash (152) in my CR, and I noticed a marked improvement over 12z when I had it put in. |
Redbuelljunkie
| | Posted on Thursday, January 28, 2010 - 10:58 am: |
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At 32F (0C) an SAE 20W-50 is approximately 2.5 times more viscous (thicker) than an SAE 10W-40 (2,600 cSt vs 1,100 cSt). Although using a lighter weight oil is better for cold starting, truth is the most engine wear takes place during cold starts when the oil resists flow. The best solution is keeping the bike from getting cold, or warming it before it's started. The "ideal" operating viscosity for oil is around 9-18 cSt, and an engine should be operated gently until the oil's viscosity gets down to at least 20 cSt. Neither an SAE 10W-40 or an SAE 20W-50 are near 20 cSt until their temp is above 194F (90C). Imagine that- between 32F (0C) and 194F (90C) an SAE 20W-50 oil has to become 144 times thinner in order to reach ideal viscosity, an SAE 10W-40 61 times thinner. Think about that the next time you thumb the starter on a cold morning. |
Ccryder
| | Posted on Thursday, January 28, 2010 - 12:34 pm: |
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RBJ, there is a lot of truth in what you say (I am no expert) but, when you get into syn's the real viscosity can be different than the listed viscosity. Some of the syn's actually get thicker when they get hot, radical idea to me!
Still it is something to think about when you fire up your trusty steed on a very cold morning. |
Dano_12s
| | Posted on Thursday, January 28, 2010 - 12:41 pm: |
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Any thoughts on a 0W40 synthetic? Most ATV'S recommend it in winter. |
Jules
| | Posted on Thursday, January 28, 2010 - 01:17 pm: |
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Rang the dealer and the bike's ready for collection, they noticed the ECU didn't have the latest flash so have loaded that, i don't know which version they consider to be the latest but I'll ask the question tomorrow when i pick it up.
They couldn't replicate the issue - but then again how would you in a heated workshop LOL
They told me to ignore the low fuel/engine mgt lights (as I thought they might) but TBH they don't bother me anyway so I probably will
Yay - camping trip tomorrow |
Redbuelljunkie
| | Posted on Thursday, January 28, 2010 - 09:53 pm: |
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RBJ, there is a lot of truth in what you say (I am no expert) but, when you get into syn's the real viscosity can be different than the listed viscosity. Some of the syn's actually get thicker when they get hot, radical idea to me!
While it is true that a fully synthetic oil has superior viscous properties than a mineral oil, every oil is thick when cold and thins as it heats. Multi-grade oil came about when synthetic additives (long-strand polymers) were added to straight-weight mineral oil in order to reduce the loss of viscosity caused by heat. These polymers are "coiled" when the oil is cold and "unwind" as the temperature rises, allowing the oil to retain viscosity (thickness) better than the oil would without the polymers. This does not mean the oil gets thicker, rather the polymers keep the oil from thinning as much as it would without them. Another benefit to these polymers is that due to their molecular uniformity, they allow the oil to flow at temperatures lower than what the base straight-weight oil is capable of. What's even better than mineral oil with synthetic additives is a fully synthetic oil.
What you get with a fully synthetic lubricant is oil that is designed, on the molecular level, in a laboratory. None of the impurities that are found in mineral oil (hydrocarbon residues, asphalt, paraffin waxes, sulfur, nitrogen compounds, oxygen, and various trace metals) are present in fully synthetic oil because the manufacturer synthesizes the oil from pure chemicals in the lab- there's no impurities to remove. Additionally, because the oil is created (the manufacturer controls everything that goes in it) the molecular structure can be made uniform, therefore every molecule is identical- a result which is impossible when refining a mineral oil. This lack of impurities is what allows synthetics to perform better than mineral oils.
The synthetics added to mineral oil have reduced performance due to the impurities inherent in the mineral base oils. Although they increase the performance of the base oil, the impurities and imperfect molecular structure of the base oil keep it from being as good as it could be. The solution- use a fully synthetic base oil along with the synthetic additives and you end up with a superior oil. This is how a synthetic can actually perform differently than its SAE rating. For example, an SAE rated 20W-50 oil must meet the SAE Winer standard of 20, and the SAE hot standard of 50. A well-designed synthetic (like Amsoil) can outperform the test requirements (flow better than a 20W when cold, and surpass the hot standard for a 50 weight oil), yet retain the SAE 20W-50 rating just for simplicity's sake. That's why Amsoil's 20W-50 is also approved for use in bikes that require a 15W-50 oil- it surpasses the SAE 15W requirement, but Amsoil chose not to sell the same oil in differently labeled bottles. The fact is Amsoil 20W-50 can be used in, and meets the requirements of, any applications calling for 20W-50, 15W-50, API SG, SL/CF, CG-4, JASO MA/MA2, ISO-L-EMA2, SAE 90, and API GL-1. This kind of performance is not possible when using mineral oil base stocks- they just can't cut it.
Back to the question of "thickening" when hot- no oil does this. All oils lose viscosity (thin) when heated, the difference is how quickly they thin and how long until they start to break down (permanent viscosity loss). A straight-weight mineral oil will be thickest when cold and have a poor cold flow rate (due to the paraffin impurities), will take the longest to heat up, and will lose it's viscosity quickest as temperature rises. A multi-grade (mineral base oil with synthetic additives) will have a better cold flow rate, will reach operating temperature quicker, and will retain its viscosity longer as it heats. A fully synthetic oil will have the best cold flow rate, will reach operating temperature quickly, and will retain its viscosity longer as well as resist break-down for two to three times longer than a comparable mineral-based oil. It's not really fair to compare mineral oils to fully synthetics- mineral oil will always be a compromise, while synthetics are synthesized molecule by molecule to meet the requirements of the designer. That's a hard act to follow. |
Syonyk
| | Posted on Thursday, January 28, 2010 - 10:58 pm: |
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+5 Insightful! |
Afhans
| | Posted on Friday, January 29, 2010 - 10:44 am: |
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Dude the steam is cool! I love starting up the bike after work and covering the parking lot in fog. Accept it as a very cool 1125 thing. |
Jules
| | Posted on Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 02:33 pm: |
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Well it appears as though the reflash did the trick... Just back from the camping trip (it was minus 5 last night) complete with snow and she fired up first time this morning..
The idle seems a bit high (1600RPM) now but I can live with that..
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Sportster_mann
| | Posted on Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 05:36 pm: |
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Jules, you're a harder man than I !
Do you ever frequent UKBEG ? |
Rex
| | Posted on Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 05:40 pm: |
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When you start yours cold, does it pop? Mine idles around 1500 rpm....should it be that high? |
Jules
| | Posted on Saturday, January 30, 2010 - 06:15 pm: |
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Do you ever frequent UKBEG ?
I think I signed up to it a little while back but haven't visited.. Must get around to it sometime soon!
As it happens the reflash seems to have "cured" a lot more than just the starting issues, the bike runs much more "cleanly" than it did before, pulling smoothly from 2500RPM now, it's a revalation! |
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