| Author | Message | ||
     Buell1128 |
i bought my bike as a demo with almost 700 miles on it. the 620 service had been done but reading through the manual it seems that syn 3 is strongly recomended my dealer used 360 20w50 and i had to fill because it was half a quart low when checked. my real ? is though is syn. oil real important in these and should be changed asap or should i just change it when i hit around 3k. instead of waiting for maint. light to come on | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
SYN-3 is semi-synthetic. Mineral oil is fine as long as you change it by 3k miles (not later). After that if you want to run full synthetic (100% fully synthetic oil is superior to any other oil available) you can certainly spend less and get better oil than the semi-syn SYN-3. Ignore what your manual and dealer tell you (except the part about weight and API specs)- they're just trying to sell you H-D branded products to get your money. And no- it won't void your warranty no matter what the dealer says. | ||
| Buell1128 |
yeah thanks i am kinda annoyed because even though i have the tools and ability to do the services i orginally planned on taking bike to dealer during warranty after this there is no way a harley tech. is touching my bike. lol. thanks good info | ||
| Froggy |
Red is correct. Personally I would just ride it, the oil is paid for and I wouldn't want it to go to waste. Swap in some Amsoil next time.  | ||
| Jng1226 |
Froggy, Do you have any independent data to support Amsoil? I was always a fan but I haven't kept up with independent motorcycle oil tests in a long time. I recently heard that there is some independent test floating around the internet that showed that Amsoil was near the bottom, and Royal Purple motorcycle oil at the top. It was supposedly followed by Motorex, Motul 300V and Castrol RS R4 4T. It involved one of those ANSI-standard ball-wear test and there were pictures involved. Has anyone seen this or have a link? I was a fan of Amsoil years ago when it was supposedly one of the most "pure" synthetic oils out there. However, I am most interested in the best performance and would hope that oil technology has progressed in 15 years. I personally used mineral oil (Spectro 4 20-50) for oil changes at 60 and 600 miles, following the "Motoman" break-in method (warm engine, then hard throttle runs up to manual-specified rpm limits). Then at 1500 miles I switched to Mobil 1 Motorcycle 20-50. The bike has consumed zero oil at the last 2 oil changes so I think the rings did seal well. Jeff | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I assume you have seen the Amsoil test? Amsoil rocks. | ||
| Jng1226 |
Fresnobuell, No knock intended against Amsoil, as I mentioned I am a previous believer in their products. Also, I assume you are referring to an Amsoil sponsored test? If so, I tend to never rely solely on manufacturer data or marketing for making my purchase decisions and always prefer "independent" tests if available. Like Al of Americansportbike.com's "XB Exhaust Shootout". Although I would have preferred the Buell Factory XB race exhaust which won that test, none were available any more but I am happy with the mid-range gains I got with my D&D. Thanks Jeff | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I'm naive. The amsoil test looked pretty solid. Since there doesn't appear to be an independent test avalable, it's the best we've got. I would like to see an "independent" test, if there is such a thing. | ||
| Jng1226 |
OK - I got off my lazy but and did some searching. Didn't find the one I had heard about, but did find this fascinating article from Sport Rider done in 2003 that appears pretty unbiased and scientific: http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0310_oil/index. html Long read and not the latest oil data, but for 10w-40, it looks like Mobil 1 MX4T is a winner. Interestingly the Motul 300V and the Maxima Maxum4 lightweight oils produced 3+ HP gains on actual dyno runs vs. regular mineral oil. I like a 20w-50 for the 1125, but maybe this is the ticket for the MV Agusta. Jeff | ||
| Milleniumx1 |
1128, you'll be perfectly fine with the dino ... Just swap it out for a Syn a couple of thousand miles from now like you mentioned and others suggested. You can get lost in oil debates, so I'll offer that Syn3 or anything believed to be superior is going to do the trick. Happy riding! Mike | ||
| Froggy |
I am sure if you looked hard enough you would find every oil at the bottom of some test. | ||
| Jng1226 |
Tru dat. Just wondering why people choose what they do. I've been in mass marketing, so I can be wary of brand loyalties sometimes. The results of the Sport Rider test above was that every major synthetic oil was clearly superior to mineral oils in longer term protection. Jeff | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
For those of you dropping the extra coin on motorcycle-specific oils, there's really no need to do so. Of course I forget what it is off the top of my head, but there is some friction modifier additive in oils marked with the "Energy Conserving" moniker on the SAE label that can cause slippage in wet clutches. The thing is, that additive is only in very light oils, like 0W20 or 5W30. Nothing I've seen with more than a 30w rating is marked as Energy Conserving. Mobil1's 15W50 synthetic car oil doesn't harm wet clutches, does a great job of resisting wear, shear and viscosity breakdown, and costs about $6-$7 a quart. I've been using it exclusively in my bikes for at least the past decade and have never had any oil consumption or clutch slippage problems. I use extended oil change intervals as well, sometimes as much as 10K miles. The durability of the oil has been confirmed by having it tested at Blackstone Labs. In the Amsoil test, Mobil1 finished second to Amsoil. Considering that the Amsoil test was commissioned by Amsoil (but, I believe, done by an independent third party), I think it's reasonably safe to think that there wasn't any particular bias towards rating Mobil1 higher than it deserved. I'd post a link to my Blackstone labs report for my GSX-R1000 running Mobil1 15W50 on an extended interval but I can't browse to my web hosting while at work. My 1125R should show up today. It's an '08 with less than 100 miles on it. It's technically a bit late to do the Motoman break-in method but I'm going to do it anyway. I'll make the 9 pulls on the street (a nice deserted stretch of highway) since I don't have a dyno anywhere nearby and then change the oil with mineral 20W50. At ~1,200 miles, I'm gonna switch it out with synthetic. http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm (Message edited by thefleshrocket on December 23, 2009) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
A couple quotes from the Sport Rider article that I found interesting... "Incidentally, Amsoil did perform up to the test claims stated on its label." "For one, most name-brand motorcycle-specific oils are indeed different than common automotive oils, even within the same brand, debunking a common myth. Mobil One automotive oil is definitely different than its motorcycle-specific version." Mobil1's 15W50 synthetic car oil doesn't harm wet clutches, does a great job of resisting wear, shear and viscosity breakdown, and costs about $6-$7 a quart. psst....YOu can get moto specific oils for a buck or two more a quart. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
For those that want to read a comprehensive article of both 10/40 and 20/50 motorcycle oils done June 2009...enjoy http://www.amsoil.com/products/streetbikes/WhitePa per.aspx | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Fresno, yeah, I probably can get Mobil1 bike-specific oil for several bucks more than the car oil, but why would I want to? The 15W50 car oil has a wider viscosity range than the 20W50 or 10W40, meaning that it protects as well as 20W50 on the hot end, and is reasonably close to the 10W40 on the cold end. Also, the 15W50 is available in "extended performance" which is rated for 15K miles. I won't ever run it 15K in any of my bikes because it would take many years to put that many miles on the bike (I have several and usually ride 6K-7K a year total) but if the oil is good for that long, then it will have no problem standing up to several thousand miles of use over a couple of years. Also, "different" does not necessarily equal "better". People with all manner of different bikes have been using Mobil1 15W50 car oil since it came out and I don't remember ever seeing anything bad written about it. | ||
| Xelerator |
Additive packages balanced differently for motorcycle engine and transmission operation. For passenger vehicles, fuel economy and emission system protection are higher priorities. These require low phosphorus systems and the use of friction modifiers. Motorcycle oils do not require friction modifiers for fuel economy and for better clutch friction less/no friction modifier is optimum. Motorcycle oils allow the use of higher levels of antiwear additives such as ZDDP (phosphorous). Source: Mobil 1 FAQs for Motorcycle Oil | ||
| Fresnobuell |
To each their own, but leaving oil in a motor for a couple years doesn't sound prudent. as has been explained to me on this forum, acids and other bad juju accumulates in the motor over time. Personally, I would trade-off the wider viscosity range for the peace of mind knowing the oil I put in my motorcycle is specific for the application....but that's me. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Xelerator, that's Mobil's propaganda to try to get you to buy their more-expensive motorcycle oil. Sure, motorcycle oils have a somewhat different additive package than your average car 5W30 or 0W20 but Mobil's (and many other brands') heavier 5W40, 0W40 or 15W50 don't use the same additive packages and don't have the same fuel-ecomony-oriented additives as the lighter oils do. They will work fine in pretty much any motorcycle that specifies those viscosities or similar to them. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Fresno, the Amsoil test I read included testing of the oils ability to resist corrosion inside the motor. Mobil1's synthetics had no noticeable corrosion during the test process, as did some of the other synthetics. If you get your bike nice and hot periodically, the oil will burn off much of the contaminants such as fuel or water. If all you do is short trips, then yes, you'll need to change your oil more often to get those unpleasantries out of there. When riding, I don't shut my bike off every time I'm going to stop for a minute or two. I often leave it idling while adding fuel too, assuming I have a second key with me. (Message edited by thefleshrocket on December 23, 2009) | ||
| Jng1226 |
That's illegal! Hope not to fill up next to you in case I get blowed up - LOL Jeff | ||
| Redbuelljunkie |
Fresno, yeah, I probably can get Mobil1 bike-specific oil for several bucks more than the car oil, but why would I want to? Question previously answered: "For one, most name-brand motorcycle-specific oils are indeed different than common automotive oils, even within the same brand, debunking a common myth. Mobil One automotive oil is definitely different than its motorcycle-specific version." This is one of the reasons Sport Rider spent the money to do the test in the first place- to answer specific questions just like this one. Spend some time reading the article in detail- it has some good information. The answers are there, but it's your choice whether or not to ignore the facts. Sure, motorcycle oils have a somewhat different additive package than your average car 5W30 or 0W20 but Mobil's (and many other brands') heavier 5W40, 0W40 or 15W50 don't use the same additive packages and don't have the same fuel-ecomony-oriented additives as the lighter oils do. They will work fine in pretty much any motorcycle that specifies those viscosities or similar to them. Perfectly logical argument, but most motorcycle manufacturers have an oil weight requirement as well as an API Service requirement- and this usually includes the JASO-MA certification. Using any oil you want is fine, but if it does not meet the specified weight and API requirements your warranty is out the window, and I doubt the manufacturers have colluded to get owners to buy more expensive "motorcycle-specific" oil- it's the proper oil to use because the bikes were designed to use it. If you get your bike nice and hot periodically, the oil will burn off much of the contaminants such as fuel or water. If all you do is short trips, then yes, you'll need to change your oil more often to get those unpleasantries out of there. Fuel and water are only two contaminates- acid is the real killer here, that's why there is more acid-neutralizing additives (boron, calcium and magnesium) in motorcycle oil. Amsoil, which has an extended-mileage service range contains more calcium than any oil in the test- it was designed specifically for it's intended use. All of the available oils will work, but there is a reason why there are so many choices and price points- all oils are not equal. I have no doubt your Mobil 1 15W-50 car oil does it's job fine, but you shouldn't deride people who choose to use a superior oil in their own motorcycle- they simply have a higher standard. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Hey Redbuell, I'm not deriding anybody. Run whatever you want in your bike--the $15 per quart boutique oil or castor oil from your kitchen, it makes no difference to me. Here's the analysis of my '03 GSX-R1000 with about 12K on the bike and 7,500 on the oil. http://www.thefleshrocket.com/images/blackstone/03 _GSX-R1000_12K.jpg Blackstone noted a high aluminum count, but said it was in line with the amount of miles run on the bike. I believe that the high aluminum was due to the sump running low during wheelies--there were a few times where the oil light would flash briefly as I was setting down the front end. After getting this analysis, I added a bit more oil (up to the top of the sight glass instead of just up to the full line) and never had the oil light come on since then. They believed that the slightly lower viscosity was caused the fuel in the oil. All I can figure is that either the bike was running a bit rich when cold, letting fuel wash past the rings into the crankcase, or I'd been not letting it get fully warmed up enough to keep the oil burned off. But since I was running 15W50 in a motor that recommends 10W40, the oil was still within the specified viscosity range. (Suzuki also said 20W50 was fine, so 15W50 isn't outside what the engine is supposed to take.) Most importantly, note the TBN. It was 8.5 with 7,500 miles on the oil. 1.0 or below is too low, so the oil still had plenty of acid absorbing additive left in it. According to the SR article, "Viscosity retention and TBN are very important in deciding when to change your oil." So I could have easily gone a lot longer on this oil change. I read through the Sport Rider test pretty thoroughly. If you have another look, you'll notice that Mobil1's car and motorcycle oils have similar additives (there is some difference, to be sure, but nothing significant) and that they performed similarly (and very well) in the tests. The conclusion had this to say: "Mobil One automotive oil is definitely different than its motorcycle-specific version. The same is true for the three oils provided by Castrol, showing that both companies have different goals when formulating their automotive and motorcycle products. Whether they perform better-despite the data we've gathered-is still a matter of opinion." Different? Sure. More expensive? Yup. Better? Inconclusive. (Message edited by TheFleshRocket on December 24, 2009) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
7,500 mile oil change interval with non-moto oil? Wow. Are you lazy, cheap or both? I just don't get it. Why push the envelope? To prove you are smarter and don't fall for the propaganda like the rest of us? I would consider that oil analysis bad--even if you and the blacksotne guy surmise the variances are normal and/or not worth worrying about. High aluminum would come from engine or tranny wear, I am guessing? Low viscosity (which may be the reason for said engine wear?) is a majorly BAD thing from everything I have read. Could that be from the sheer effects of the tranny on the non-moto oil? I don't know. The main problem i see with pushing the envelope is once you press past the limits of an oil, there is no reversing the ill effects on the motor. Thanks, but Amsoil every 3,000 miles for me. My motor works damn hard and deserves the TLC (if you want to believe it's overkill and not vital preventative service.) BTW, my "boutique" oil costs about $10/qt. shipped to my door. | ||
| Fast1075 |
One source of aluminum in used oil that is often not considered is wear from the clutch basket where the fiber plates tab into the aluminum basket....that will happen no matter what oil you use. Just sayin'. | ||
| Thefleshrocket |
Fresno, I'm neither lazy nor cheap. Nor am I wasteful. And changing oil well before it's worn out seems wasteful to me. The aluminum, as I mentioned, was presumably due to the oil pan running low during wheelies, which would occasionally but infrequently cause low oil pressure. After increasing the oil level, I never saw that light again. There is no reason to assume that the aluminum was the result of insufficient lubrication due to poor quality or incorrect type of oil. That same bike is now owned by my brother and has about 8000 miles on the oil. (The 7500 mile oil sample from the test was with 12,200 on the bike, if memory serves, and it's currently a bit over 20K.) It hasn't consumed any noticeable amount of oil--the level is still up to the top of the sight glass despite those miles. I may well ask him to take a sample and send it in, just for the hell of it. I must admit that I have been being lax about sending oil in for testing in the last couple of years. Mostly it's because I have been selling my bikes within a year or two of buying them. My oil change interval is once every two years so they all get changed when I buy them, but not always a second time. The two-year interval equates to several thousand miles on each bike, and quite frankly is probably well before the oil needs to be changed. I'm pretty much done buying bikes for, well, a really long time. Every bike I own was a really good deal, is a really great bike, and I don't foresee myself finding anything even remotely close to better for the money. So I'll probably start sending oil for analysis during my bi-annual changes. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
It seems like there are lots of assumptions floating around (on both sides of the issue)...i very well may be changing out perfectly fine oil every 3,000 to 4,000 miles, however I can't think of any engine that runs an oil any harder than a high-performance motorcycle engine. For the slight cost and ramifications of getting it wrong, well, you already know how i feel. | ||
| Kidder |
I have used Shell Rotella Synth 5W-40 in all my motorcycles up to this point. I am currently running Mobil 15W-40 Delvac oil in it right now. It's formulated for diesel engines which also happens to be good for wet clutches. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I am currently running Mobil 15W-40 Delvac oil in it right now. It's formulated for diesel engines which also happens to be good for wet clutches. Aside from the fact that you are using an incorrect weight oil (not a cold weather issue as you live in TX), again why the motivation to use an oil outside of its intended use? Diesel engines and high-reving v-twins are quite different to say the least. (Message edited by fresnobuell on December 25, 2009) | ||
| Nik |
Diesel engines and high-reving v-twins are quite different to say the least. Shell Rotella has a JASO MA rating. |
