| Author | Message | ||
     Avc8130 |
How is everyone getting the latest 12.17.08 M3HUS05Z flash? I have been to 2 dealers. The 1st wanted $45 to do it. The 2nd said they looked it up and didn't find a new flash. What is the deal with it? I really wish Buell would put out a service bulletin for this. ac | ||
| Pizzaboy |
thats absurd for your dealer to charge for re flashing your bike. ive had 3 separate ecm programs on my bike so far, and havent been charged even the dealers' time to do it! | ||
| Avc8130 |
The 1st dealer said without a tech bulletin they have nothing to charge the labor to. The 2nd said they checked on HD-Net and nothing came up. Even if Buell could throw something on the HD-Net to ask dealers to plug in and check for updates it seems like it would solve my problem. ac | ||
| Ccryder |
Ask them how much just to hook up your bike to the Digital Tech? The digital tech will read your ECM revision level and inform them if it needs upgrade. Make a deal with them that you will pay $20 if there is not update available. If there is an update then they foot the $'s and they will make the $'s back on your P&A you buy and service, since they have been so good to you ;+}. Or find a good dealer like mine. Ask some of the other Buelligans in your area if they know of a better Dealer. Neil S. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Problem there is the "best" dealer in the area (pretty much all Badwebbers suggest) is the one that wanted 1/2 hour labor. Can a Harley ONLY dealer use a DT-III to check and update? ac (Message edited by avc8130 on August 22, 2009) | ||
| Avc8130 |
Just got off the phone with Buell CS. They said flashes should be free, but he said 04Z is the most current for 2008. Is this true? I thought I read 05Z was the most current. ac | ||
| Bott |
My dealer wrote it up as a warranty issue- put that it's idle was too high. (09) | ||
| Chevycummins |
I thought the last flash that was done on my 2008 was the 05Z but I could be wrong. | ||
| Ron_luning |
Maybe after you paid them $45 for something that is supposed to be free (as a service manager should know) they would find something wrong with your muffler bearings....those are very pricey I hear. | ||
| Froggy |
They have no way of charging for the flash itself, but they can charge for the labor. After all, they are using the shops time and supplies to work on your bike. Half hour labor seems to be the normal going rate. | ||
| 1_mike |
I guess I was lucky in that respect. The two upgrades (11Z, then the 12Z) I got, both done for nothing, no hassle, about 30 minutes, in and out the door, both times. Mike | ||
| Orman1649 |
Maybe I'm being greedy but if Buell puts out a new flash, it should be free....considered warranty work or something. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Customer Service agrees with Orman...however, I am just trying to figure out how to convince the dealer there IS an update out there...since there is no direction from Buell to the dealers. ac | ||
| Chevycummins |
I've had the same problem with my dealer, they could not find any info on new programs. They need to plug into the bike like they are going to program then if there is a new one for your bike it will come up. My dealer has never charged me for a flash. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Chevy, Are you familiar with the plug in? Is the 1st thing it does is check for updates? Could their system be out of date, or is it constantly updating? The service manager said he asked the tech to plug it in. He is confirming with the tech and supposed to call me back. I have a feeling they just looked up on HD-Net and it shows the service bulletin reflash complete. ac (Message edited by avc8130 on August 24, 2009) | ||
| Odinbueller |
Seems like this creeps up from time to time, but there are 2 different scenarios that would require a re-flash; 1. Product Program Update – This is a calibration constructed to correct issues on a bike that is done in the interest of customer satisfaction, i.e. 1125R re-flash to correct heat, fuel consumption, battery drain, etc. Product programs offer this to customers free of charge so that the labor involved will be covered (covered is a loose term, they don’t pay all that much for some of these, please keep that in mind) by either H-D or Buell. 2. Running Changes – All H-D & Buell models will, from time to time, have a new calibrations made available that are intended to correct some issues (off idle issues, compensation to reformulated fuels, etc.), but are not covered by a product program. The calibration itself is free, however, there is the labor to load the calibration and then test ride to get the AFV back to normal (re-flashes always reset AFV back to 100%). If you bring your bike in for service, you should ask if your bike is eligible for a calibration update if you’ve already had the product program done. This way, the software can be downloaded while servicing the bike, and the test ride is part of the service. If you bring the bike in just to check for a calibration update that is not covered by a product program, then there is going to be labor involved. Service departments have an inventory of time to sell, and if they check or do these updates FOC, then they are giving away their inventory. Once the day is over, their inventory of time is depleted and they have to wait until the next day to re-stock. If there is any retail work to be done, it possibly can be done while servicing the bike. This is all contingent upon what kind of retail work is to be done (anything electrical is out the window as the bike has to be either off during the repair, or the ignition is cycled during troubleshooting). Tire changes & interval services are examples where this could be worked in. Hope this helps. Chris | ||
| Chevycummins |
Just talked with Buell today and there is no new flash out for the 2008. The 04Z is the most current. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Chevy, That is really strange, only because everyone seems convinced there is an 05Z. In fact, I searched and found a print out from the DT-II that showed Reflash to 05Z. Buell CS told me 04Z was the most current. Sounds like even Buell is a little confused LOL. ac | ||
| Crogers72 |
Hey all, I work in service at Great South HD and have flashed several bikes for free. The simple fact is that any bike in the store takes someone time to flash. No Tech in the store works there for free, so usually there is some sort of charge for their time. If things are slow, I usually do it myself for fellow Buell riders and charge nothing. That is, as long as the flash is non-chargeable, as all factory "STOCK" flashes are. | ||
| Mrchannman |
How do I see which flash my bike has? Thanks Gene | ||
| Avc8130 |
Man, I wish one of you guys dealership types posting were close to me! ac | ||
| Chevycummins |
I thought that when I got the last flash my bike came up as having the 04Z and I was sure I saw the new program number that was the 05Z that they put in the bike. Buell cs told me there was the 04Z. I will stop into the dealer tonight and check. They have a record of the last flash that was put into the bike on there computer, If I remember correctly they can find it using my VIN #. Just more confusion, its a wonderful thing! | ||
| Xl1200r |
They have no way of charging for the flash itself, but they can charge for the labor. After all, they are using the shops time and supplies to work on your bike. Half hour labor seems to be the normal going rate. Hogwash. If a dealer charges you a factory flash, even $2, they are ripping you off. Odinbueller's scenario are likely correct and spot on - and he's correct about Tech's time and so forth - but in a worst case scenario, the need for a new flash would be considered a warranty item and therefore Buell still foots the bill. I have gotten flashes, for free with no issues, for the last three bikes I've owned at my dealer. This last one confused them a little on where to charge it to, but they evetually figured it out and pulled my bike in. Odin - answer honestly - It sounds like if I walked in and said, "There's a new flash for my bike and I want it", you'd charge me a 1/2 hour labor or so to do it. Fair enough. Now what would you do if I walked in and said, "My bike isn't running well below 4,000rpm." Knowing you have a flash to fix this warranty issue, would you still charge me for it? As a customer, I would furious to be forced to pay for warranty work. | ||
| Odinbueller |
XL1200R brings up another point that seems to be a point of contention. Here's how a warranty issue should be properly addressed: • Customer brings their bike in for a warranty concern, i.e., I have this stumble at 4000 RPM. The service writer writes them up and the bike goes in the shop. • The technician must first try to duplicate the concern to see what the possible causes could be. If the concern can not be duplicated, then no repair can be performed. • Once the concern has been duplicated, then the diagnostics begin. DTII has the capability of capturing live data while on a test ride to see what could be the cause of the concern. If the concern trips a diagnostic trouble code (DTC), all the better. • The repair is performed based on either the DTC or the subsequent diagnostics through DTII. The bike is test ridden again to see if the concern is still valid. If not then the bike is released to the customer. If the concern continues, diagnostics are continued until the trouble is found. Now I haven’t been active in the shop for almost a year now since I began running the parts department. When I was in the shop working on bikes, never once did one of the diagnostic flow charts point to “Re-Flash ECM” as the repair in my diagnostic procedures. Runability issues almost all the time point to a sensor that went bad. The 1125R re-flash product program was issued in the interest of customer satisfaction. This was not a warranty issue, but it was an update that Buell felt necessary based on feedback from their customers and peers. Now sticking with the example given, what if the re-flash didn’t take care of the problem? How furious would you be then? What if there wasn’t a new calibration and the information that you procured was just plain incorrect? If the bike is under warranty, and all other diagnostic procedures fail, sometimes the motor company suggests updating the calibration. I’ve seen this once in my experience, and it didn’t make that big of a difference. The problem was found, and it was a sensor that had a very intermittent issue. With that same example, if the shop took that bike in and said “OK we’ll take care of that for you”, did the re-flash with no diagnostic time, and the problem persisted, now that shop owns that problem, or perceived problem. And in that scenario, trust me, it never ends well. No one is happy at the end. As with any update to a part, even if it is software, doesn’t mean that the owner is entitled to it because they are under warranty. With the example given, would it make sense to go into a shop and say “I’ve got a stumble at 4000 RPM, and I know there’s an updated fuel pump that will take care of it”? Just because it’s updated, doesn’t mean that it will fix everything that is perceived to be wrong with a certain model motorcycle. The bike needs to go through the diagnostic procedure first. Now, if you want this repair, and the motor company will no pay for it, and you do not want to pay for it, who does? If the shop in questions does not have the resources to send someone out to re-flash a bike for free, the shop should just eat that time? What if 10 people came in for the exact same situation? That’s roughly 5 hours of lost revenue. Remember, service shops have a very limited inventory of time, and it needs to be accounted for somehow. Sorry to run on, but I think there are a lot of misconceptions out there on how a service shop works. Hope this helps. Chris | ||
| Odinbueller |
Again, the software is free, but the time to install it has to be paid for by someone. If it's the shop, then that shop lost money on that job. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Now, if you want this repair, and the motor company will no pay for it, and you do not want to pay for it, who does? I think the point is that Buell IS paying for the software install. My dealer would not have performed it on my bike if they didn't. This isn't meant to flex muscles or anything, but I worked in a service shop for quite a few years that I would be willing to bet rivals most any other shop in terms of size, number of veihicles moved through in a day, and (sometimes blind) customer loyalty. I know the ins and outs of the industry. My bike had pretty bad surging issues around 3,000 rpm. I brought it into my shop, told them there was a new flash for the bike that's supposed to help with this. There was a little head scratching figuring out how to enter the service into the computer so they got paid for their time, but after that, they took it right in, and 30 minutes later my bike ran MUCH better. 30 minutes on the DT and installing a flash that Buell has already developed sounds a lot cheaper for Buell than going through the diagnosis tree and trying to replicate issues. Don't get me wrong - I understand the purpose behind the tree, but I think, like anything, the rules needs to be bent once in a while. In your scenario, if I had my stumbling at 3,000 rpm, the tech was able to duplicate the issue, but there were no sensors bad, no parts broken, nothing "wrong" with the bike and the diagnosis tree never ended up at "Install latest ECM flash", what would you do then? (Message edited by xl1200r on August 25, 2009) | ||
| Swampdog225 |
Took mine in to SD Harley-Davidson in Kearny Mesa and they took care of it free of charge. I was in and out in about 30 min. I think the idea is if the Service Mgr has a full bay of bikes waiting to be serviced and his techs are busy of course he is going to try and recoup some of the lost time. | ||
| Avc8130 |
I just got CEL today. I am SURE it was 4500rpm/3rd gear/WOT. That would involve scanning with DT, right? Should be pretty easy to reflash while there, right? ac | ||
| Chadhargis |
Should be able to enter diag mode and read the codes. Also, if it's the solenoid code, it should clear itself on restart. (Message edited by chadhargis on August 25, 2009) | ||
| Avc8130 |
It is the solenoid code...it does clear itself on restart. Just trying to help give the dealer a reason to plug in and do reflash. ac |
