| Author | Message | ||
     Slickshoes19 |
How is Buell doing financially? I have very little knowledge of stocks and financials of companies, so with the mothership (HD) doing poorly and with the acquisition of Mv Agusta can we be confident that Buell will be here in 5-10 years? Motorcycle Consumer News stated last year that Buell was one of 4 motorcycle companies that were in the black last year. Given the volumes of 08 1125r's that are still on dealer floors were the numbers based on units sold to dealers? This would account for the brand's "black" status and the unsold 1125r's but wouldn't paint a rosy picture for the future of the brand. I have faith in Buell (with over 25,000 miles on them in the last 3 years) but would like to hear an informed opinion on the future of the brand. Thanks for any opinions. (I figure the 1125r was supposed to put Buell more on the map, so this seems like a fine spot to post this thread.). | ||
| Carbonbigfoot |
Love to hear a response from somebody that would know... R | ||
| Chadhargis |
I have no doubt that Buell will be around for quite awhile, but I still think they need the freedom to franchise to non-HD dealers. Anyone who has ridden my Buell, even expert level racers, have all commented how much they like it. And all said it was, "a lot better than they expected". The bikes are great fun to ride, but getting past the HD stigma is hard for some folks. | ||
| Brad1445 |
Some sexy on the bikes would insure a longevity | ||
| Doerman |
The 2009Q1 and Q2 reports: REVENUE - MOTORCYCLE & RELATED PRODUCTS --------H-D motorcycles-------------------$1,010,809---------- -$808,709 --------Buell and MV Agusta motorcycles-------31,265-------------39,934 --------Parts and Accessories----------------169,756------------231, 470 --------General Merchandise-------------------75,191-------------6 9,601 --------Other----------------------------------3,6 27--------------3,931 Problem is, Buell and MV Agusta is combined, so it is difficult to separate what Buell did vs Agusta. I tend to believe that Buell stands for the lion share of that revenue. Dagnabbit! The unit count is not separated in the 10-Q either! 2009 Q1 and 2008 Q1 reports and delta: Buell and MV motorcycle units 3,774---------4,072------------(298) (Message edited by doerman on August 18, 2009) | ||
| Jdugger |
I don't know if Buell is broken out in financial filings, and I don't feel like sorting through it myself. You could start here, though: http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/DisplayFiling. aspx?TabIndex=2&FilingID=6722797&companyid=8053&pp u=%252fdefault.aspx%253fcik%253d793952 | ||
| Slickshoes19 |
Yikes! Where do you begin with that link jdugger? Are there any business men/women on badweb? It's kind of scary that HD makes about 2X as much money on general merch than the entire Buell/MV lines of bikes. There still appears to be a profit there, but what happens when/if there isn't one? Looks like it'd be smartest for HD to kill Buell if times get too tough. | ||
| P_squared |
Looks like it'd be smartest for HD to kill Buell if times get too tough. Not if you're trying to attract a younger demographic to buy your products. As long as Buell remains in the black, and someone with long term vision remains in charge of HD's business, they should be fine. | ||
| Rfischer |
H-D continues to be a well-run, profitable company. They are very well capitalized and are in no danger of a financial crises. Buell is an integral part of the H-D business, ergo, it's not going anywhere either. They are not going to "kill Buell" any more than they are MV Augusta. Harley is the model of a well-run motorcycles manufacturer everybody else aspires to. | ||
| Jdugger |
> Looks like it'd be smartest for HD to kill Buell if times get too tough. Maybe, maybe not. Is Buell profitable? What's the cost of capital to Buell? What kind of turnover do Buell customers represent to HD? What marketshare impact would losing Buell present? How about selling/spinning it with a public offering or private debt? Perhaps it's a cash king even if it's not all that profitable? And so on... The kill/keep decision is one that's really complicated in a sophisticated business like Harley Davidson. It's not just "what's its relative size to our major operations?" that goes into a decision like that. In America, cruisers are what, 10 to 1 to sportbikes? Is it any surprise that HD, who's been so successful in capturing an allure to their brand and promoting a lifestyle and image along with it, sells more in T-Shirts than Buell does in parts? I think even the Japanese manufacturers move a lot more numbers in Cruisers than sportbikes! I don't personally think any of this is a reflection on Buell. As long as Buell itself is a reasonable, sustainable business, it should have good cause to be around. If not under HD's umbrella, under a private or other public ownership option. | ||
| Doerman |
In the 10-Q, HDI used to report the combined revenue of HD and Buell. Now they have made a change to report revenues for MV Agusta and Buell combined and HD separately. Companies do this differently, but revenues are often reported by lines of business. This change in reporting indicates to me that they are viewing Sportmarket (Agusta and Buell) as one line of business. That is maybe an indicator of how they view the lines of businesses developing. And if I am right, they are "betting" on a sportbike market segment. That should be good news. | ||
| Elvis |
Buell revenue by year: 2000 58,053,000 2001 61,672,000 2002 66,949,000 2003 76,064,000 2004 79,029,000 2005 93,069,000 2006 102,227,000 2007 100,534,000 2008 123,086,000 Harley Bike Revenue over the past 3 years: 2006 4,553,561,000 2007 4,446,637,000 2008 4,278,241,000 I'd expect both Harley and Buell to have some pretty big drops in 2009. It's really been amazing to watch Buell's numbers grow and grow and grow over the years . . . and every year hear people say: "Buell isn't going to be around long. Harley will cut them loose soon." | ||
| Court |
>>>"Buell isn't going to be around long. Harley will cut them loose soon." Harley's had the chance and made it quite clear that was not going to happen. Buell, just look at those numbers, would be a plum for any large firm to acquire. | ||
| Doerman |
Hah! Found it. Agusta made 5,819 units in 2007 (from a seeking alpha article) and was predicting fewer units in 2008. I bet the production picture for 2009 has not improved. Extrapolating wildly, maybe 2,700 of the units made in Q2 were Buells (1,000) being Agustas. That would be down from last year but not drastically. I'd say Buell is doing great when comparing to others in the same business segment. | ||
| Slickshoes19 |
Why buy MV Agusta If you own Buell is what I can't figure out. I realize HD wanted Mv for it's European appeal but as I understand it, the majority of Buells are sold in Europe. The acquisition of Mv instigated my first thought of, "maybe HD is going to sell Buell.". My 1125r was bough at an HD dealer that was dropping it's Buell line, I kept reading about 08 1125r's still on dealer floors, and HD's sales are declining so I was wondering if anyone else was fearing the demise or sale of our favorite brand. You've all made some good points and I'm still convinced Buell is here for the long haul. | ||
| Ron_luning |
There probably are a lot of 08 1125R's on dealer floors still. Soon the 09 models will be leftover clutter. Go to a Japanese bike dealer and you'll see some amazing things like 07 year bikes still there, or 30% off MSRP on 08's. Maybe take a look at that HD dealership and see if they have 08 Sportsters sitting there. If you really want to see something, go to a car dealer and look at the staggering inventory just sitting there. Everyone is having a tough time moving vehicles, not just Buell. I'm not sure, but maybe MV Agusta was profitable when it was sold to HD. To purchase a profitable company makes sense even if it competes with another brand you own. It doesn't matter because you're collecting the money from BOTH of them. | ||
| Brad1445 |
I never would have thought Buell could fade. But I think they need some serious product development to insure security. They have the best engine in the world, belt drive handling. Now wrap it in an attractive design and make sure its built right and they could own the world overnight. The Rotax deal should have turned the market upside down. A Buell handling bike with a world class engine!!!!! Here's hoping to 2011 brings the missing pieces. The market will get a strong message if the same products are issued for four years. When your parts start getting numbers with revision D's you may have the wrong people on that assignment. Make dealers stand by the product even if the customer is upset or yank the franchise. | ||
| Ponti1 |
Brad, if you have 2008 Firebolt, what revision do you think YOUR parts are at? Wonder how many parts have changed/improved in that Sportster engine you're riding around on? | ||
| Blake |
Buell is fading? 2007 $100,534,000 2008 $123,086,000 I wish my revenues would fade like that! | ||
| Diablobrian |
Not to mention the fact Buell acts kind of like a "skunk works" for H-D pioneering design changes that eventually work their way into the H-D product line. That is a valuable function that does not show up in the bottom line. | ||
| R2s |
The Rotax deal has. I for one as with a lot of people would never but a sportster based bike. Its to low tech. The 1125 is there best selling bike so far. You cant change the opinion of everybody in a few years. the Japanese have been at this way to long for that. As far as HD goes, their days are numbered. Sure there are still enough older guys out there chasing that dream of their youth, but my sons and their friends don't want them. they are to no tech. they want performance. Its like muscle cars vs imports. In twenty years Harley and cruisers will have the small share of the market. HD knows this and that's why Buell has nothing to worry about. So what are you guys talking about? | ||
| Blake |
That's funny. H-D will have a small share of the market. Dude. Not likely. | ||
| R2s |
Their customer base is aging and the next generations just not that into them, These are the facts. They are gonna need to change or get passed just like their bikes do on the road. | ||
| Dbird29 |
"Their customer base is aging and the next generations just not that into them," I've got a 25 year old guy working for me and he is excited about a hand me down Wide Glide from his dad (2000 miles). There you go an anecdotal sample of one that prove you wrong! This Internet fact thing is easy. | ||
| Ponti1 |
There are LOTS of young people buying and/or lusting after the cruiser style motorcycles. I personally know >50 guys under 30 riding Harleys. Some of them have big twins, some have Sportsters and aspire for a big twin, and some have Sportsters and are itching every year to see what the new Sportster models will bring. All kinds of people ride all kinds of things. To think that, generally speaking, people want to ride only race replicas would be a poor mindset for anyone in the leadership of one of the major motorcycle companies. Case in point...Just because the GSXR1000 has dominated Superbike for so long, we have not seen Suzuki focus solely on track-oriented bikes. On the same note, Harley-Davidson is not so blind to think that everyone wants a bagger. They have a gem in BMC, and would be wise to ensure they are doing their part to see the Buell brand succeed. | ||
| Slojon |
Motorcycle ENTHUSIASTS will keep H-D, BUELL, MV, and many other marques going forward. Anyone notice the revival of some "dead" Brands? Heck, you could build a Cushman from parts available in the aftermarket- believe all could be found new. The marketplace is not static. The ebb and flow brings change. This conversation is stale, time to ride | ||
| Blake |
\blue>>>Their customer base is aging and the next generations just not that into them, These are the facts. They are gonna need to change or get passed just like their bikes do on the road.} You have any actual facts to back up your assertion? No? How can you, aside from the recent recession, Harley-Davidson has been continually expanding market share. Why is it do you imagine that the Japanese and even Euro moto competitors have scrambled to develop cruiser lines of their own? From what I can tell, your contention is nothing new, and it has proved to be largely mythology. The part that is not mythology is that the customer base for Harley's has for the past three decades been mainly more mature, more affluent men. If you are shopping for an SV650 or a cheap deal on a used or last year's model repli-racer 600cc turbine bike, you aren't in the market for a Harley. That's no different now than it was in the 1980's. But please, if you have facts to back up your assertion that men are no longer wanting to ride Harley's, please let's see them. Stating that "these are the fact" won't cut it. | ||
| Pariah |
Having a look at a college motorcycle parking lot (at least here in Texas) is quite telling... you see cruisers and sport bikes in about a 1:1 ratio. This might actually be a statistically relevant sampling! The cruiser dudes aren't old professors, either. They're young students (who typically ride without helmets or gear). | ||
| 2008xb12scg |
"Their customer base is aging and the next generations just not that into themUntil they get old and slow down and get into a more relaxed riding possition, aka Harley. When you're young you want the fastest, most bad a$$ everything. When you get older your tastes change. Either way HD has a bike for all ages, and ocasions. | ||
| Ekruizenga |
Draw your own conclusions: http://knol.google.com/k/bobbie7/harley-davidson-m otorcycle-sales/21yokwucnoqmb/37# http://pulse.alacra.com/analyst-comments/Harley_Davidson_Inc-C1007686?firstindex=41 Blake fix hyperlink  (Message edited by ekruizenga on August 19, 2009) (Message edited by blake on August 19, 2009) (Message edited by blake on August 19, 2009) |
