| Author | Message | ||
     Ponti1 |
I am hoping others will share their experiences here, because I am absolutely baffled after the first day of running with my new K&N filter. My bike (2008 1125R, 05Z flash, ~9300 miles) has had learned AFV values of 100f/100r for it's entire life. I have been checking the AFVs at least once per tank of gas since I learned how to do it (around the time of first service), and I have not once seen any learned value other than 100 for either cylinder. This morning before work, I installed my new K&N air filter. The new filter was replacing a fairly dirty original OEM unit, and as such is expected to flow much better. After the quick install, I made my 30 mile run down the highway to work, paying a little extra attention to holding steady throttle for longer periods so the bike could adapt to the new filter. Got to work and checked AFV in diagnostic mode...90f/95r!?!?! How is it possible that the new filter caused the bike to remove fuel? I am noticing the bike running a bit hotter on the coolant temp, and am also noticing 1-2 MPG increase. I checked the AFV again when I got home tonight, and they still sit at 90f/95r. Please, somebody, throw out some ideas as to how it could be possible that the bike needed to lean out the mixture with the K&N. I was expecting to probably see maybe 1-3% increase in fueling due to the better flow of the new filter, and am completely stumped. | ||
| Doerman |
I installed my K&N yesterday. I noted the cold values at the time of install (94F - 100R). I'll be doing quite a bit of riding tomorrow and I will check the values again after the bike has cooled down. My bike's intake and exhaust is stock. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Yeah, I would be curioius to see the AFV changes on a "normal" bike. Mine has the AFVs locked, so I am no help. I would expect to see an increase in the AFV with the K&N. Unless someone comes up with a better theory, I am gonna add 2.5% more fuel for tomorrow's ride. | ||
| Daggar |
I've been wondering about this too. My AFV values are locked as well. I was thinking about unlocking them and seeing what happens. | ||
| Daggar |
Fresno, did you notice a drop in mileage after you locked your AFVs? | ||
| Ponti1 |
My AFVs were locked until two weeks ago when I decided to get the 05Z flash. They were locked for about 1500 miles with a few extra percent. Outside of that, I have never seen a learned value other than 100. I thought I would see what the bike "learned" with K&N, to better know where to set the lock on the AFVs this next time. By the way, Daggar, I saw a reduction of MPG after locking AFV at +5%. The drop went from around 40-41 MPG to around 33-34 MPG. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Fresno, did you notice a drop in mileage after you locked your AFVs? Yes. I went from mid-30's to low 30's | ||
| Daggar |
My MPG dropped to about the same as both of yours. It makes sense. Sorry for the hijack.  | ||
| Bigblock |
My bike had around 90 f 100 r, now it is at 85.5 f 100 r But only around 40 miles on it, and no real steady cruising. I noticed the afv at 85.5 f after the first ride, and it was only around 5 miles. It started running crisper and smoother immediately after kn install. Don t know about mpg yet, and I think I have the latest CA flash on my 08, but I can't say for sure, it atleast has the 3rd flash. | ||
| Racerxusa |
Ok I have 99 Front and 105 Rear on a jardine mounted/pro-tune 3 tuned/stock green mode settings in cruise range and with K&N air filter/inner airbox lid removed. I just put the K&N 3 days ago and been riding hard/fast long trips and it runs great! What a bike...! I will be adding .5 increment to yellow/red modes as Chris Neely from Jardine had suggested and I will check AFV again. It seems to be spot on...for those that have jardine equiped bikes/pro-tune3... Rob Buell guy.... Skip Fordyce HD/Buell | ||
| Xbswede |
Ponti1 did the weather warm up recently? Might explain it. Mine was 100F/100R before K&N and then ran for 2000 miles on a K&N with no movement before locking my AFV values. Tried it with top off and top on as well. My millage however just improved about the same time the day temps raised by 20 degrees. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
OK not hi-jacking the thread here, just trying to explain how the free flow A/C could cause this. As a rule minor changes that increase airflow or VE numbers make the bike run richer in some cells. The most common change for a stage 1 bike is to lower the main jet size and increase the needle. On a FI bike with a PC most of the changes make are to remove a couple of clicks of fuel on the mid range. This is not absolute, but in general that's what I have had to learn from dynoing a few hundred of these for the last 6 years. Terry - JT&S Performance | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
So in 1125 speak if some of the cells in closed loop learn became just a little bit richer the AFV would be driven down. Haven't checked the 1125 book, but on the other Buells it's 100 +- 10%. When I tune closed loop, I tune to 100% and don't try and chase a cell or two inside 4%, but that's just the way I do it. Terry | ||
| Fresnobuell |
So Terry, are us guys with the ability to lock the AFVs correct in adding a couple percentage points of fuel with the k & n? | ||
| Palmer |
quick question: how is it possible to lock the AFV values? Thanx! | ||
| Ponti1 |
Ponti1 did the weather warm up recently? Might explain it. I have ridden for the last few weeks with 50s in the morning and 70s-80s on the way home. Yesterday was the same, except it broke 60 in the morning. I'm not sure if that's such that it could be the difference, but it sure seems odd that it never left 100/100 before. Last summer, in 90+ degree days. = 100/100 Last winter, riding in 20s and 30s. = 100/100 I'm baffled! | ||
| Ponti1 |
As a rule minor changes that increase airflow or VE numbers make the bike run richer in some cells. Hmmmm...So, generally speaking, it is possible to increase airflow and cause a rich condition in some areas? I don't understand the logic, but am no expert on characteristics of the internal combustion engine, either. Assuming this is correct, that might mean that some or all of the areas where the bike learns experienced this effect, and thus causing the bike to *think* it should remove fuel. I'm going to give it a few hundred more miles and monitor closely what happens with AFV. If it stays settled where it is, I will need to get a way to log A/F mixture while riding. No matter what the reason might be for leaning out via AFV reduction, I am not at this time anywhere close to believing it to be a good thing. | ||
| Xbswede |
"Hmmmm...So, generally speaking, it is possible to increase airflow and cause a rich condition in some areas? " This makes no sine to me. You are not going to add more air and cause a rich condition. The AFV globally adjusts by a learned percentage. If cruising at 4000 rpm and the ECM learns a 100F and 100R AFV its not going to go Rich by increasing air flow and reducing the AFV requirements down to 90% or whatever %. There has to be something else at play causing it. Ponti1- did you make any other changes other then the AFV? Have you tried to put the stock filter back in to see if it goes back up to 100? Could there be too much oil on the K&N? (Message edited by xbswede on May 23, 2009) | ||
| Id073897 |
AFV tells you nothing about airflow if not tested on a dyno with all other conditions locked. No change in RPM, load, engine and air temperature, battery voltage and so on between the two runs. Whish you lots of fun to get there. Then, and only then, AFV might perhaps give a vague impression in which direction mixture is moving. As a rule minor changes that increase airflow or VE numbers make the bike run richer in some cells. This sounds quite logical as VE is impacted by fluid dynamic effects. | ||
| Bigschwerm |
I ran my bike 1000 miles before locking my afv's ..... it stayed at 105/105 just like stock the stock filter did | ||
| Ponti1 |
Xbswede, the concept of adding air and achieving a rich condition makes no sense to me either. Then again, this whole thing doesn't make sense, and is why I started a thread. No other changes besides dropping in the new filter and heading out the door. Id073897, how does AFV tell nothing? If I have had a consistent AFV of 100 front and rear forever, change out the air filter, and then immediately start seeing that the ECM is reducing AFV (taking away fuel)? Being that only one variable exists: air filter and all other things are pretty much constant: route to work rider temperature range gas in tank etc. It seems to me that AFV drop directly corresponds to changing the filter. | ||
| Buelldyno_guy |
As a rule minor changes that increase airflow or VE numbers make the bike run richer in some cells. OK I only posted what I have come to know over the last seven years or so. Not too interested in debating the point, but will discuss it with those who desire to. It seems like the science goes somewhat like this. Changes in the flow for the intake, motor and exhaust all affect something called the volumetric efficiency or VE. Different FI systems treat those changes differently. My experience is that some cells will need less fuel and some more. Buell uses low to mid RPMs and low TP for the closed loop area. Inside that CL area lives a CL Learn area. It is well within reason that a free flow A/C could and most likely did richen up some cells in the mid throttle / RPM areas. Again I only know what I have seen and had to learn. My old way was always better pipe bigger jets. Now I know that's not always true and that's why I don't guess, I read the AFR on both cylinders and then make changes to keep the AFV at 100 +- 4. But again that's the way we do it here. Terry - JT&S Performance | ||
| Id073897 |
Being that only one variable exists: air filter Thats not the only one variable. Every sensor has it's own aberration. Even using another cell of the map might have an impact on AFV. Lots of people complain about rich/lean/whatever mixture and the LCL should miraculously be fully adjusted? Hahaha, lovely idea. Learn how these things work, and you will no more fall for same marketing babble. | ||
| Kttemplar |
My afv with the KN are 94F/105R they were 100/100 before that, but I did not check it immediately before installing the filter. | ||
| Doerman |
So after a day of riding with the KN in place. I see the front and rear vales have not changed. Still 94F and 100R. Again, I let the bike cool down before taking the reading. (Message edited by doerman on May 23, 2009) | ||
| Dipstick |
Hey guys, I just got my K&N filter. How do check AFV's? Do I even need to worry about it? Bike is an 09 1125R, stock except "noid" cable is removed. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Does the bike feel faster with the K&N ?? I think that this is the "true" question ?? | ||
| Marcodesade |
I'm curious how to "lock the AFV's." Can someone elaborate please? Dipstick: with the key off, and antitheft disabled, hold down both Toggle and Mode while turning the key on. Scroll using Toggle (I think; maybe it's Mode. Whichever is the wrong one will dump you back out of Diagnostic mode and you'll have to start over). Keep going until you see the values near the end. | ||
| Bigblock |
My bike definitely feels faster and smoother with the K&N | ||
| Kttemplar |
Definitely better throttle response with the K&N. I am glad they finally made one for the bike. I run K&N on every vehicle I own. Mike |
