| Author | Message | ||
     Eagle1 |
I already posted this update a month ago, but I guess people don't check the archives  Anyway, I'll just copy/paste my last post to see what you all think: Update: Since the weather started getting nicer around here (above 40) I've had the bike out several times, but still no time to bring it to the dealership. I've been wanting to run diagnostic mode to get you guys some figures (if it's worth it) I finally took care of that today and here's what I got: Fr O2 voltage fluctuated between .1-.9 Rr O2 voltage fluctuated between .1-.8 F adapt Fuel 100.0 R adapt Fuel 105.0 Does this help at all? I still plan on taking the bike to the dealership, but I need to find a ride back first. That is, should I plan on them keeping the bike for a while? How long will it take? Thanks guys! http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/422158.html?1229351897 | ||
| 1_mike |
It's an "ignition timing" thing...NOT a "fuel" thing....!! Low, low rpm timing will light the headers up...lean fuel will not....unless your'e running Nitromethane As I posted yesterday, the new (09) map (12Z) increased the timing. I know this without even knowing "exactly" what they did do. Why...the engine runs smoother at low rpm, the engine runs cooler, and there is a hand full more low speed power than with map # 11Z.. These are direct signs of increased ignition lead. I'd checkin with your dealer to see if your bike has a new map available. Made a BIG difference in the way my bikes engine runs. Mike | ||
| Eagle1 |
A new map? I had the new flash done back in August/September. Is there something else? Also, if it's the map, then why doesn't everyone's bike with the new flash have the same problem? In my original thread there were many people with the same problem, and probably just as many (if not more) without the problem. | ||
| Blake |
What exactly is the "problem"? Hot headers? If the bike is running good, it's likely fine. Exhaust temperatures in a high-performance engine can easily cause headers to glow. | ||
| Eagle1 |
As far as I can tell, there isn't really a problem. I just wasn't expecting glowing pipes. Then when I asked around, quite a few people agreed that there must be a problem. | ||
| Zac4mac |
The map is a little lean, courtesy of EPA and CARB. Some of the pipes glow... at idle. We talked about this a few months ago - a small box fan will move enough air that the glow disappears. You won't be riding around, glowing in the dark. Z | ||
| Blake |
"quite a few people agreed..." Smart of you to seek council here .  Sorry I missed your first post on the matter. | ||
| Eagle1 |
Well, it'd be great to find out that it's "normal" to the point of nothing going boom if I ride her. I don't have the time to take the bike to the Buell dealership to get looked at, so I haven't been riding here at all. Zac, how sure are you that it's only a "little" lean? | ||
| Chevycummins |
My wide band o2 shows about 15.5ish at idle and right around that while at cruise speed. Sometimes its up closer to 16 afv during acceleration. Seems very lean to me. | ||
| 1_mike |
It doesn't matter how hi-perf. an engine is......the headers should NOT be red hot! Hell...any of you seen 8000hp at 300 miles an hour...? ONLY the flames coming from the tip of the header are glowing/on fire/red hot. Think about that for your "hi-perf." thoughts! Take that SAME 8000hp Top Fuel engine...retard the timing 4 or 5 degrees...you wana see RED HOT headers, another coupla degrees...they'll melt right off the engine! This engine (Rotax)...set up right...should NOT have red headers at any time! Here's a thought for ya...I watched Eslik (spl?) (and the rest of the group)...at Fontana from three different areas....not one time did I see ANY HINT of red headers. Possibly up right at the head...don't know, but not near the center of the primary tube...!!! A 300mm camera lens shows up a lot of detail. Mike | ||
| Georgehitch17 |
1_mike if a engine is shooting flames out of the exhaust why wouldnt the headers be red hot at idle? I thought our headers only turned red when at idle for a extended period of time | ||
| Zac4mac |
Anecdotally, I have 17.2 k miles and no holes in my pistons. Wrong direction, Mike. Advance will heat things up, retard will cool them. I retarded my idle timing from 12-17 dbtdc to 5.5 degrees. My pipes DO NOT glow. Z | ||
| Dtx |
Here are some glowing headers for you...  | ||
| Blake |
How can a header pipe conduct 1,000+ oF burning exhaust gas at supersonic velocity without becoming red hot? I've seen them near white hot. You won't, however, likely detect said glowing in broad daylight behind frame and fairing. | ||
| Dentguy |
Then when I asked around, quite a few people agreed that there must be a problem. Quite a few people on here also said it wasn't a problem as you said. I'll say again what I said in the original post. My Uly did it, friends XB12 did it, Ducati did it, Yamaha YZ426F did it. Probably many others that I owned and never looked at in the dark. It's sitting still with no air flow, the pipes aren't very thick, but exhaust is very hot. Makes them glow in the dark. All of those bikes ran great and nothing went boom. It sounds like you are worried about it. I would say, take it to the dealer so you can get your concerns noted and they can check it out. If they say no problem, just ride the heck out of it and don't worry. | ||
| Ccryder |
DTX, waaay kewl pict. Blake, doesn't that heat just magically go away (:+}). I've seen, at one time or another, glowing red header pipes on all my bikes that I have owned. | ||
| Zac4mac |
When I lived in San Diego, in another life, I used to warm up my Sporty until I could light a cig off the head-pipe. Z | ||
| Eagle1 |
I've got a date with a Buell tech this Friday. I'll finally find out what's wrong with the R  | ||
| Usmoto |
My headers, at least the back one, always glows when I'm sitting still. I can only see it sitting still in my garage. Can't see it outside. I thought it was normal till I read this. I still haven't gotten the 3rd reflash, (M3HUS03Z), though which might fix it. At least I think that's the 3rd one. | ||
| Eagle1 |
Alright, I brought my bike to the bike doctor yesterday, and the verdict is that it's running fine. They hooked it up to the computer and said everything was running within values. Granted, they couldn't explain the glowing pipe, but if they said it's not running lean then I'm gonna take their word for it and put some serious miles on!!! | ||
| Blake |
"they couldn't explain the glowing pipe" They had no clue about the 1,000oF exhaust being ejected at supersonic velocities from the exhaust ports? I'd find another shop if I were you. | ||
| Brapbrapbrap |
Wow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersonic Thats fast | ||
| Black |
Hi Eagle1, I was hoping for a better report on your bike after you took it to the shop this spring. We discussed the issue of the cherry red pipes throughout much of December. On 21 December, I relayed the opinions of two factory-trained Buell techs, and an author on motorcycle repair who is a professional engineer. (Buddy of mine from Court's neck of the woods.) The solid consensus was that pipes that hot upon initial start were caused by a lean condition and that the condition was NOT normal. They all recommended that you take it to a Buell dealer and have a diagnostic run, which you have done. At the Buell web site is a download from ROADRACING WORLD Vol 18, Number 12 of December 2008. It is an article called "Buell Uber Alles" by Sam Quarelli Fleming that (among other things) discusses the high engine and exhaust temps on the earlier 1125Rs and how they happened, and what Buell did to fix the situation. My question now is whether the various flashes are cumulative, or whether they are all combined in the third flash. If your dealer cannot answer that question, they need to learn to dial a phone and call Buell. I don't have cherry red pipes and I do have all three flashes. I have crawled around that bike in the dark looking for the condition and just don't have it. Make your techs call Buell. Good luck! | ||
| 1_mike |
If the header tubes are covered in thermo wrap....do they still glow bright red? How do you know...you can't see them, they're covered? Kinda like hearing the tree fall in the woods...!! I took off the front header and wrapped it today, ( I wrapped the rear last month). Not a speck of color inside. Like the engine had never been started! That's just not right! Mike | ||
| Eagle1 |
Black, I guess I could always take it back. I'd like to think that the tech's opinion was not based on him being lazy. Maybe I can think of a friendly way to tell him that I want it looked into further. Who knows, maybe I'll take it to the next closest Buell folks (only 1.5 hours away) and see what THEY say. | ||
| 1_mike |
Lean....!? While no doubt most all stock 1125 are lean, they also need a coupla degrees of lead. A friend of mine reminded me of this. Any of you guys recall a few years ago, an F1 engine on an engine stand with bright red glowing headers...from the head to the collector. Right there in the explanation of what they were doing was a note....don't recall the exact comment, but the jist if the statement was about moving the...wait for it....the "timing" around to see what effect it had on the "fuel" mapping. The overheated exhaust was caused by as little as a four (4) retard...NO change in fuel mapping. Another one. A friend of mine called me one day after starting his supercharged Chrysler hemi with new heads, injector and mag. He couldn't figure out why his headers were so hot and red for about the first 6" from the head. I advanced the magneto about 5 degrees. Despite all the expert opinions....guess what, the headers cooled to a proper temperature within about 45 seconds. The actual jetting was very close once we got to the track When I get the lap top to ECM harness in the mail, get the program and I feel comfortable with using the software...I'll advance the timing on my 1125. Sorry that I can't JUST advance the timing, because it's too lean also...which as some may know will cause detonation. I won't tear an engine up to prove a point, but part of the tuning will be to add 2 degrees to the entire map (from idle to 11500rpm), along with some fuel...! Then with a good starting point, I'll either hit up a local chassis dyno or just buy a "FAST" oxygen meter for the fuel and "play" with the timing by ear. Mike P.s. - rather than say that ONLY the fuel map is off...those of you with EMC-Spy...give it a try. Add 2 or 3 degrees of ignition timing. You just might be plesantly surprised. (Message edited by 1_mike on April 20, 2009) | ||
| Slaughter |
You MUST measure EXHAUST GAS TEMPERATURES before you worry about pipe glow. EGT is also how you can tune these things (when using leaded race fuels) - ANY internal combustion engine for that matter can be mixture-adjusted by measuring EGT. In fact, that is EXACTLY how many aircraft piston engine mixtures are set - using EGT. | ||
| Black |
Roger all your comments guys, But I believe the best course lies in utilizing the Buell solution to the known lean condition, i.e., the correct flashes. It is, after all, their engine design. I absolutely would not be altering factory maps. The article I mentioned earlier discussed the machine compensating for a lean condition by dumping more fuel. You guys might be right, but on a motorcycle still under warranty, I would not be changing the mapping. Anyway, I think Eagle1 is on the right track in calling another dealer. |
