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Carbonbigfoot
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 01:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The real test is if it will do 2nd & 3rd gear power wheelies with my fat a$$ on board...

With hope, I will soon be able to report!

Keep us posted on the AFV #'s!

Rob
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Jersey_thunder
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 08:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

hey,
i'm lost hear...AFV?..dam these new fangle gizmos...

JT
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Carbonbigfoot
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 10:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

AFV's are a parameter in the instrument cluster that indicate if the computer is adding or removing fuel all across the range. It seems that if you increase airflow, the AFV's go up, and vice versa. It's an indicator of what the ECM is doing to learn.

Rob
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Xb9
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 11:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

True in a simple sense, but it's not that simple.
In this example where flow has been changed unequally in different TPS/RPM coordinates of the map(s) vs the stock exhaust system (& stock base maps) the learning process goes askew. You won't get it to learn properly without a corrected foundation (base maps)for the ECM to work off of.

This applies for any exhaust system change.
Hence the need to correct the base maps.
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Xl1200r
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 11:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'll be keeping a close eye on the AFVs for those with this pipe.

I know it was intended to be used with the stock ECM, but that front reading is awfully high.
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Carbonbigfoot
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 01:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

XB9, From what you've seen thus far, would you expect significant potential with the addition of tuning the ECM, and would you hazard a guess as to the potential?

R
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Xb9
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 04:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I don't know, I didn't do the R&D work on the design of this system. No, I wouldn't want to speculate.
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Slypiranna
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 05:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I suspect that the AFV's are moving about so much due to the different areas (RPM/LOAD/TPS, ect, ect...) that this example is operating in...

Based upon the facts of operation within CL enabled...

>>>Stock o2's are getting a mixed bag "read"...and the ecu cannot "home in" on the wide areas needing covered. Bottom line, she's outside of design parameters.<<<

ADD to that, the entire "reflection" point, built into the stock exhaust, has been completely eliminated with this pipe's design/effort.

Has anyone gone back and wondered why Dris/Easyrider spent 500+ dyno runs... adjusted the "pressure chambers" (as he called them) within his design?

His design was done, IMO, the correct way from a developmental standpoint. He also incorporated the basics of the stock design. He also developed the ecu programming to follow suit! Good show Easy! : )

Have any of you wondered why the stock pipe's main flow tube dead ends right in front of the rear tire? That is the reflection wave point that I am referring to and it affects this engine/ecu greatly!

You cannot eliminate the basics of the stock design and maintain closed loop. It has already been proven that the stocker is already on the edge in order to meet EPA PPM, with or without a catalyst.

IMO, this pipe (Drummer) should require OL only operation and a dyno tuned remap, based upon it's design alone.

It should also be done with individual cylinder feedback prior to the merge, with EGA's or Wide bands.

On a side note, I'd love to read how an 08R is responding to the same pipe in CL?

I seriously doubt that it will be anywhere close to the 09 example herein, concerning AFV's.

Looks, sound and initial power gains should not be the only targets to an exhaust system or any other modification for that matter.

Long term happiness of the engine/electronics needs a lot more attention and time/development prior to calling anything done, let alone proven.

Prove me wrong, I'd love to understand another side to this! : ) mm

(Message edited by slypiranna on February 24, 2009)

.
My understanding is that Kevin has been developing the Drummer 1125R/CR exhaust system for over a year now. Your imagination that he performed no due diligence is way out of line and flies in the face of his excellent reputation producing mufflers that work as advertised with the stock ECM or factory race ECM as applicable.
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Proper disclosure is not only warranted but demanded here. So much speculation aimed at deriding the product of another begs scrutiny of motives and expertise; said derision and pure speculation coming from the very man who previously exhorted others here to avoid negative critique absent direct first-hand experience with a new product. Blatant hypocrisy is one thing; trying to be "sly", employing baseless assumption, and mere personal "suspicion" towards deriding a highly reputable Buell aftermarket muffler system designer/manufacturer and long time friend of Buell enthusiasts while at the same time planning to offer for sale your own Buell 1125R/CR muffler is beyond the pale.
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Yes, you read it right folks; Mr. Slypiranna, the man seemingly looking to derail the Drummer 1125R/CR exhaust system before it hits the market, is planning to offer his own 1125R/CR muffler for sale.
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Making any kind of assumption based on just one or two data points (AFVs) is irresponsible and technically unsupportable. Namely, it's pure hogwash. Given the stellar reputation of Drummer mufflers and KD Fab and Mr. Kevin Drum, this little dissertation simply stinks. Benefit of doubt? There's none from Mr. Slypiranna.
.
sly: cunning, tricky, crafty, wily, foxy, artful, guileful. These adjectives mean disposed to or marked by indirection or deviousness in the gaining of an end. Sly usually implies surreptitiousness, secretiveness, and lack of candor: “You think he's open and blunt—he's as sly as a mink” (George W. Cable). Cunning stresses cleverness and ingenuity, often at the expense of moral principles: “Cunning men pass for wise” (Francis Bacon). Tricky emphasizes shiftiness, deception, and absence of scruples: Under the façade of morality and patriotism can be perceived the false and tricky political opportunist that he is. Crafty suggests mastery of devious and underhanded methods or schemes: Crafty plotters make the best intelligence agents. Wily suggests subterfuge or stratagem intended to entrap: Her father was a wily old attorney. Foxy implies cunning and craft and usually long experience in the use of trickery: The parvenu was much too foxy to let slip even a hint of his working-class background. Artful emphasizes adroitness in maneuvering to accomplish a purpose: She won the case by her artful manipulation of the jury's emotions. Guileful suggests an insidious, often treacherous nature: “a guileful tournament organizer who manipulates and dehumanizes athletes” (Jeremiah Tax).
.
piranha: Any of several tropical American freshwater fishes of the genus Serrasalmus that are voraciously carnivorous and often attack and destroy living animals.
.
Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language
.
Blake : |
.




(Message edited by Blake on March 01, 2009)
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Ponti1
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 07:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sly, great post! Thanks for the detailed insight into your perspective...You've really given me (speaking for myself only of course) some good points to consider in ANY exhaust I may have interest in purchasing.

Hopefully, someone (BuellGator, where are you?) might post us up the AFV information from an '08 installation.
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Buelldyno_guy
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 08:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Using a Dyno with dual AFR readings and single or dual AFV's and live tuning I have had no problems tuning and mapping any Buell ECM's while maintaining the AFV between 97 to 103. Buell uses an Alpha N control system without any load control input, so here in Northern or Southern Calif. on a nice 200 mile day with say a couple of 2-3K elevation changes using open loop only the ECM can't compensate to keep it running correct. But that's just the way we do it. Terry - JT&S Performance
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Slypiranna
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 08:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)



I have NO idea what in the world Buelldyno_guy is getting at or to within this thread????????????

Please help!

Buelldyno_guy...I for one, am completely lost by your post.

Could you please enlighten us to what you mean...in layman's terms, concerning this exhaust thread?

Thanks in advance. I honestly hope that your post was not just one for advertising purposes, mm
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Hogs
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 08:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Wheres the PopCorn...!
Another Night at the Movies...!
Sure Hope its not another long Flick...!
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Bigschwerm
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 08:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Xb9 and mm thanks for all the input....learn alot every time i read what you 2 post
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Xb9
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 08:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I think he's talking XB's (without the MAP and BARO sensors) Don't think he's done much with the 1125's yet, just speculating
On an XB with closed loop disabled there is NO adjustment by the ECM period.
The 1125 with closed loop disabled will compensate for altitude via the BARO and MAP sensors

(Message edited by xb9 on February 24, 2009)
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Carbonbigfoot
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 09:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

+1.

I think that I am going to do a couple of things when I get my pipe.

1. stock dyno run

2. dyno immediately after

3. dyno again after a few hundred miles.



Monitor AFV's and try to stay organized... I may or may not invest in getting the ecm tuned at some point in the future unless driveablity suffers. If that is the case (which I do not anticipate) I probably would move in that direction.

Rob
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Dtx
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 09:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Question:

I have installed an aftermarket exhaust and my AFV's went from 100 front/100 rear to 99.5 front/90.5 rear.

Isn't that kinda going the wrong way? An aftermarket exhaust would lean it out, so am I wrong at assuming the AFV's should be above 100?
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Carbonbigfoot
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 09:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yep. That's my understanding.

What pipe?

Rob
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Wfo_rey
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 10:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Bigscherm I'm with you guy every thing I have learned and done to my black beast has ben good and man life is all keep up the good work. My thanks to Mr,MM and XB9
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Dtx
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 10:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Carbon,

It was the Jardine.
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Rockstarblast1
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 10:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

i was told if it goes below 95 that isnt good
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Ponti1
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 10:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

What do you mean by "not good"? Really, to me, it's not good to leave 100/100 since that means your maps are not right. Do you means some specific damaging condition?

.
Your understanding of the AFVs and their function is incorrect. The AFVs exist solely to adjust (adapt) the fuel mapping to varying conditions (anything affecting air density and A/F ratio that the various sensors are able to detect). The AFVs exist to change, thus the "adapt" part of "Adaptive Fuel Value". If the AFVs didn't change, they would serve no purpose whatsoever.
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Blake
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(Message edited by Blake on March 01, 2009)
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Xb9
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 10:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Rey, we just want to see some type of Buell record at the Texas Mile this year!
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Wfo_rey
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 10:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

you got it thanks
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Rockstarblast1
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 11:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

not quite sure... when i bought my bike i talked to the head service guy. he races buells and has a race licens. and we were talkin about exhausts and the drummer. and he was showing me the afv's and jus said if i ever see it drop below 95 to bring it up there and he will take care of it for me for free. idk what he could do or whatever or what could happen.. he said if it goes up its better then down. and his bikes sittin at 105 ish but im not 100% sure how bad it is im new to this whole thing myself and still learning

.
A slight clarification: The AFVs change according to sensor inputs that indicate needed adjustments to air fuel ratio. If you ride your 1125 up to a significant elevation\' like say into the mountains or high plains, the AFVs will change to account for the reduction in available oxygen in the thinner (less dense) air. The same is true for elevated ambient temperatures or even a clogged air filter. So in some situations the AFVs may legitimately drop below 95. Outside of riding in very high temperatures and/or at high elevations, or with a clogged air filter, your service manager's advice is prudent.
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Blake
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(Message edited by Blake on March 01, 2009)
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Buelldyno_guy
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 11:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sorry if I seemed to hi-jack this "1125 Drummer" thread I didn't mean to. I have been following his status on the project and am a fan. I have been ever since the Great Exhaust Shoot-out and also use a Drummer on my ULY.

In explaining my post, XB9 is somewhat correct in that I am just now tuning our first race only 1125 and using Buell's Henry Duga Race Only ECM Tuning Kit. I find no fault or feel the need to criticize how anybody else tunes. I feel it takes all kinds, and therefore we end up with all kinds of results. But back to this thread... it started as an exhaust thread, but sometimes seemed to get side tracked into tuning issues. On this page someone asked about Adaptive Fuel Value or AFV. Then some one answered and the thread started sideways, for that I take my share of the blame.

On the other not so subtle slam at me or JT&S Performance, this board and its members have supported both Jimmy and I as individuals for several years. Until the business could become a sponsor, I started adding my name and the business name to the post, but until we were, I never violated the board's advertising policy.
Terry - JT&S Performance

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I can personally vouch that both Terry and Jim have done nothing but conduct themselves with the utmost of integrity and honor on this forum. The integrity and motives of anyone who indicates otherwise are highly dubious.
.
Blake
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(Message edited by Blake on March 01, 2009)
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Carbonbigfoot
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 11:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

uuuuhh, what?

No problem, dude. This is just the best venue to share information tha there is for this hobby!

More of what you know, please?

R
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Buelldyno_guy
Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 12:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

What is the status of the 1125 pipe? I have never seen a slip on be as close as his XB at WOT right out of the box. I am hoping this new one will be that close also. Terry - JT&S Performance

PS it would be nice to have a board on BW just for non technical (how to) discussions on fuel injection. It seems like some subjects here go across at least five different boards. XB, ULY, Racing, 1125, and tube framed. Just an idea, terry
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Jerseyguy
Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 10:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Terry - Thanks for the vote of confidence.

The internet is rife with interesting opinions, often presented as indisputable fact. They are, after all, just opinions to be believed or not at the reader's discretion.

The Drummer team has never assailed another competitor's offering to elevate our products. We prefer to allow our systems to stand on their own merits. Having supplied thousands of systems to satisfied customers, we are quite confident that our newest offering will also be a success on the street and the track.
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Buelldyno_guy
Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 11:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Steve I have no doubt Kevin and the team will have another winner here. One of the things that won me over was the out right passion the Drummer customers had. We love being at a race track and year-around riding on great roads here in the N Calif. wine country, but sometimes wish we were just a little closer to y'all as my friend from N Carolina would say. Jimmy, Sam and I wish you the best on the new project. Terry - JT&S Performance
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Kds1
Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 02:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

thanks guys for the good words, ( you know who you are ), everyone knows I haven't been doing this since 2003 burning up motors, jeez give me a break....the 1125 will run fine with no problems, no tuning needed, but however, if you WANT to have your bike tuned and all that by all means do so for your own satisfaction, it costs money so just spend it....I don't ride a piece of paper nor do I spend my daily rides on a curvy dyno in a small room, God knows you can really get in trouble on all those curves in there and lots of traffic to dodge also, get a Drummer and get out of the house, ride the bike like its intended, oh by the way, I bet my computer has more hp than your Buell : ) got to get to wal-mart and get another batch of those Monza turbo mufflers for your bikes :o
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