| Author | Message | ||
     Easyrider |
Is it possible to change this topic into 1125R exhaust an fuel map or something... I did some ore testing and already made 300 runs on the dyno now.. Here is some data: 6-9-2008: Oke some more data, here is a graph with a stock exhaust, stock airfilter and good fuel map. And a run with the same setup, only the Airfilter removed. So the airbox can be improved.  Here is the same setup, only now I made a fuel map for the setup with no air filter BIG difference: So here is a graph with a run with NO air filter and the fuel map and stock exhaust (red line). And No air filter with a good fuel map.. (blue line) What we see is a big increase in power.  Oke thanks to Badweb I found a K&N filter from a car and with some little changes i replaced my stock air filter. Here is some data, The red line is a mapped stock exhaust with stock filter. The blue line is the same run only with replacement of the K&N filter and done nothing to the fuel map.  Here is the same setup as above now only with a good fuel map, see the improvement:  And finally, Here is a graph (green line) A stock exhaust, No air filter with a good fuel map, (this gave the best results) and a graph with a K&N filter with a good fuel map, almost the same results 143 HP on the rear wheel and 118 NM of torque.  I also tested the REMUS exhaust the version with no Catalyc convertor.. man it's bad.. later on I post the pictures | ||
| Easyrider |
Things to do: We also work on some other stuff. We ordered a set of heads, and will port and flow them, and put some bigger valves in it (-; , and put the bike on the dyno.. can't wait to do this. We are also developing a exhaust for racing purpose, the current exhaust manufacturers, make something for commercial purpose and not for HP purpose, I tested the remus and i started crying... Later on I post first the results with our own developed exhaust it's gonna bee a long process because we will change the exhaust as long as I needed to find every horsepower. And then the results with the new heads and with the exhaust.. | ||
| Ccryder |
Easyrider: You have a LOT of great info here. IMHO the best thing to do would be start a new thread so everyone can view all the hard work you have done. Since it sounds like you are representing a shop, and may be selling the results of your hard work, being a sponser may also be the way to go. Keep up the great work. | ||
| Easyrider |
Ccryder, I hope a moderator can do this for me.. otherwise I will do it thanks. I send Blake a e-mail about becoming a sponsor here I think Badweb is the way to go for Buellers.. It's 1 big book.. (-: | ||
| Xb9 |
Thanks Easyrider for sharing all the info, it's all very interesting. | ||
| Slypiranna |
...and educational! | ||
| Slypiranna |
Easyrider, Have you considered moving the camshaft timing around prior to actual port mods? It appears that this engine needs additional exhaust timing in order to blow down the cylinder...shift peak TQ up. This might be one reason the aftermarket pipes are not realizing the gains expected at higher rpms. Yes...sure to kill low speed TQ but most racers don't spend much time below 5k. Curious to your opinion. mm ps...I see regrinds in the future! Who's sellin' cores?!  | ||
| Neb25 |
How about the Saron exhaust with a good map and the K & N filter? | ||
| Easyrider |
Slypiranna, We would like to spend time on this subject when we open the engine the first time.. and make the plans for the heads.. Any info is welcome, I am learning every day, but you have a very good point here.. We try to build the information step by step and test everything step by step. First developing a good exhaust for the stock setup.. Then the heads and then the cams.. Did you have a look at it already or some info?. | ||
| Easyrider |
Neb25, At this moment the best choice | ||
| Slypiranna |
Easyrider, I've poked around a little in this engine but you are, by far, ahead of any that are sharing this information! Currently, we are locked into the cam profile of the Helicon but it might prove beneficial to experiment the following procedure. Many other examples (other than I4's) have proven this method. I'd be most curious to run the cam profiles on a cam doctor! Good winter project... http://www.factorypro.com/tech/tuning_cam_timing_t uning_proc.html p.s...Your dyno prints seem much more credible than many I've seen to date regarding this bike/mods. Keep up the great effort! | ||
| Easyrider |
Sly, I poste dthis in another topic also.. zac, Today i jused the old flex-drive... (-; I mapped it again and have now 144 HP and 118 NM of torque and it pulls like hell.. I used the old flex-drive and just cut it in the front open after the 2 pipes coming in.. opened the first part for 50% an took everything out of the first chamber.. There is a steel catalyc converter in it with a system with some small holes.. I am wondering how a US spec exhaust looks like, and still want one to test it.. I believe the US spec has 1 Big pipe coming for the headers to the first room. (this part i took it out I can only say it's good I did this I get more respect for the people of Buell who developed the exhaust.. smart people.. The sound is a little louder but not much louder (Message edited by easyrider on September 09, 2008) | ||
| Easyrider |
Yesterday I took the catalyc converter out, and welded the original exhaust together. I needed a lot more fuel between the 3600 en 5000 RPM, also in the top end. Then I made a complete new fuel map for the setup. Here is the graph 144 HP on the Rearwheel and 118 NM of torque:  | ||
| Slypiranna |
Those graphs keep getting smoother! Lovely tuning Easyrider! | ||
| Thurstonbuell |
And almost 90 ft lbs of torque !!! Impressive | ||
| Easyrider |
I wish, 1 of you RACE guys send me a race ECM who race with it... And uses the same setup as i do stock exhaust K&N filter Active air intake removed and lamda disconnected.. Then I will support the programming for the first racer for free.. (race license requiered) I am wondering how happy that person would be... | ||
| Sheepaholic |
Hi Easy, bloody great work! I would love to be able to send you my race ECM only two problems at the moment 1: The race ECM hasn't arrived yet but has been sent. And 2: I haven't picked up the bike yet :-)still waiting on confirmation of chain converted swingarm cost. Obviously it is an Australian model so no cat converter | ||
| Slypiranna |
Easyrider, Have you experimented with the timing maps yet or has all your work mainly concentrated on the fueling? Keep it up!...The magic "150" seems within reach soon. mm | ||
| Easyrider |
Sly, Yes I did, After 358 runs on the dyno, I promise you this is the close as you can get.. The timing is easy to read on the dyno searching for power and leave it in the best position.. I only did the timing from 3000 till 11000 REVS. Next step developing another exhaust and do the head job.. | ||
| Easyrider |
Sheepaholic, This is only for US customers... mmhhh, oke then I will help the Aussie too (-: We have to kick ass on the track and show these japanees bikes what we can do... | ||
| Jmr1283 |
we need a race license? how do u get that? im in the process of buying a 1125 it should be here in 2daysto2weeks and i really like what ur doin. great job. | ||
| Slypiranna |
Easyrider, Ok...since you and many others have shared for this effort...so will I, again...at least what I've learned thus far. Your ready on the exhaust...and your not the only one. If you only knew. The following should help, if not confuse. Look at all the published attempts. They either mimic the stock y-merge, x-tend it (key) or separate the two pipes completely. They all fall short, literally. None of which, thus far, have proven performance to call the effort done...just a premature attempt at a market calling. TAKE the time. AND...Take a long look at the stock pipe and why it was designed the way it was; Aesthetics, Noise/EPA per country, Target TQ/HP...choose the order if you can. It had to start with the Power Target and be reworked from there in my opinion. After all, until you actually test any example, how can you move forward to the others? What we have been gifted, with the stock exhaust, is a very simple lesson. The actual reflection point is the length and volume of the primary/lower flow point. Measure the volume here, it's important! The math is beyond high school. The merge of both cylinders on the stock bike is somewhat close to the valve. I feel this is designed to help the lower rpm torque curve. From a higher performance/race standpoint, it should be further downstream...do the math. If you truly sit down and attempt a design at this animal, you will also find that the length/space allowed is very limited. My take on the this follows the stock pipe. End of first flow path=reflection wave...90' turn, up, 90' turn, forward and on and on until atmosphere rules the escape...AND where the noise element is diffused to DBA requirements. However, this path also affords the total length that a similar long tube race header/exhaust requires for a great balance of TQ/HP curves. This should get the brain cells flowing. I've done three prototypes and am still in testing as of this writing on my own 11. Reverso style IS required on this bike... Period....but it may be a 2.5 reverso that is the answer. Cams/head/intake work should follow after the best slip-on design wins. After all, we are racing, aren't we? The primaries are also of question for an all out assault! ...that's another story though! Buell engineers should be given a major award for the stock pipe's effort. For them to meet all the design criteria that they did, is amazing if fully understood. Hat's off! Maybe BMC is just seeing who can top what not long ago, was deemed, "impossible"? Wait, they already proved it. Think FLOW, Think MERGE point, Think REFLECTION point, Think required VOLUME...simply perfect what is already there and then looksee at the primaries...then the heads! Simple, huh? That is what I said back in January! ...but still on it! mm p.s. The sooner that we realize the honest sharing of information is exponentially beneficial to any said cause, the sooner we may all benefit from its disclosures. | ||
| Easyrider |
 Sly, I totally agree, scarry to read this, I thought, I could write this myself, you are right about all.. I have a concept ready only need to weld the mounting point for the headers.. and go further from there.. I share what we find.. (-: | ||
| Ccryder |
MM: I wish I understood what you are saying since it sounds WAAAY interesting! When you get a little further along maybe lower the tech level by 50% and I'll try not to fry my brain. You and Easyrider are owed a great deal of thanks for even getting this far. Neil S. | ||
| Slypiranna |
If any of you ever get this way I will buy a round! I think this thread rocks. Even though a lot of it was theory in the beginning, I for one have learned a great deal. If first you don't succeed or understand, try again and again until you do. Back to the shop...there is another box of tubing with my name on it! Happy tig welding and don't forget to purge... Cheers...mm | ||
| Easyrider |
Good luck sly.. I'll try to let sombody else do the welding this week (-: and post the results as soon as I finf spare time on the dyno... | ||
| Slypiranna |
This is in another thread but should be copied here... What we've learned from 08/09 but yet to be proved of latest 08 flash and or any or all upgrades relevant to 09; MINOR gearing change(s) is irrelevant to the 1125r, cr, 08-09. The map doesn't care what "ratio" you are in. That is the job of the sensors that do...correcting the base MAPS! "Better" / Heated o2's have nothing to do with the equation either. They are already "heated" in CL. Every where else is OL and off solid base maps. OL has proved as close to perfect as any could hope for on a stocker. FACT. Stock 1 wire is fine and proven. Read archives. 5-wire/widebands have not helped at all. Hundreds of hours testing by many, adding up to thousands. Period. Placement of o2's does help (but not by itself)...as the new location allows a more accurate sampling point within the flow path of said sample of greater volume after the two valve primary merge in the primary pipe(s). This should prove less failure rate due to this placement...BUT advances in proper fueling wont' be for an absolute requirement globally or mandatory for every example. RIDE IT WITH THE MAP CHANGE ONLY! To lower the o2's sensor within the 08's location would have hindered flow. To do so after the fact doesn't. Why?=Boundary layer but don't think this is mandatory! Mapping will have a MAJOR effect on this principle as the mapping is closer to the mean target....=less correction requirement per unit of time. Back to injectors & their overall exhausting...Think windshield in a car traveling in rain at any interstate speed or higher. The water droplets travel at a very lower rate than the actual speed on the dash. Remember that concerning targeted injectors! This has nothing at all to do with higher rpm's (higher velocity) but has everything to do with slow speed riding in normal day to day/under 4500rpm cruise (as assumed would have been ridden in)...may prove that the new TARGET is patterned at the major velocity/flow point and not the port wall. No major comments on the new inner frame/cell heat shielding other than thanks for listening. It's inclusion proves just that on the 09. ECU mapping...now here is a real lesson that we've not fully understood thus far...but have proven, undeveloped on the 08 11...OR, just "some" examples of such. Build tolerance, rider perception, ride rpm and on and on and on we've been. "Heat" and/or voices of such...BMC has listened to recommendations since releasing the 08 11. The actual heat generation is compound, if you have not already gathered. A happier engine turns BTU's of heat into energy, one way or another...less of which is transferred to the frame if devoted to fuel efficent/forward motion per volume. Mileage...again, compound. If liquid fuel droplets are migrating to the intake walls...that is problematic. Think targeting and actual flow of the fluid stream/intake air...feedback via o2's reflects this. Why do you think that the mileage would be better in 09 when the power is the same? Welcome to efficiency. ((There is so much more to all of this than can be posted at once!)) If timing of the injector firing event was also altered in the ECU then another ponder arises, no? Yes. Given the 08...and back to o2's and all that we've learned...reread the above. If you TARGET the injector with proper TIMING of the intake event, you will have proper combustion, (AND less overshoot on the exhaust event as feed back by the o2's) given the base fuel/timing map parameters and even in CL. If you have droplets of fuel, the o2 will read rich/lean to a point of an overshoot constant/beyond what is capable of the time element of the ecu to correct for. Herky-Jerky @ said load point up to open loop. This engine/configuration has already proven on many examples to run just great above 16:1 A/F. Some have not. I seriously bet that the new flash will not go against EPA (or it would not have been approved for 09!) but will improve the few 08 11's that remain unhappy from a CL, street ridden, standpoint. I just wish that I had purchased all the remaining 08's @ the current offering to resale with said perfection! They ALL have the potential to be excellent examples for each and every owner, rider or reviewer...the rags will even rave and all the updated 08's will blow out the dealer's doors with the new late owners at the financial advantage!...a$$holes! We'll read it in 09...it's going to be ok. Nothing is "impossible". Credit aplenty goes to Buell for really hanging in there and listening to the base owner group as direction/solution to an otherwise perfect offering. Excellence is derived from what is seemed as a public failing in regards to it's competition...but we already knew this was a great offering in 08! Thank you, Buell. You are proven to be an incredible company that has an honest and loyal following. Though somewhat limited in your access, as a whole, your company proves the core fundamentals of great business ethics. Thank you, Badweb and all it's members. Your combined involvement and experiences herein only helps the end cause. In ending to a very long post...but no sorry to do so...THIS; Matt @ BMC customer service deserves this public Thank You for HIS dedication, patience and overwhelming kindness for what he has been hired to do. He deserves this, along with a raise! It's folks like Matt that make this ownership/learning curve, enjoyable and sometimes, challenging! Can't wait to test the 09 flash!!!!!!!! I have a great feeling this flash will support mods due to improved ecu functions! mm (Message edited by slypiranna on September 12, 2008) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Geez, Sly....I don't understand half of the things that you posted...can you summarize things in layman's terms please. Maybe for those '08 owners who are wondering what the new reflash holds for us... | ||
| Slypiranna |
Fresnobuell, IMO and in the most simple wording possible; The 09 programming will prove to make the 08s much more efficient. I've been caught up in the mindset that enrichening the "lean" spots is the only answer to the CL issues. After all, enrichening many examples shows improvement. I now believe we've just covered up the actual causes by doing so. The majority of corrections lie within the tuning and (the 09 flash) should prove very acceptable on a stock or mildly modded bike. We'll know very soon! mm | ||
| Jpfive |
Great effort, slyp! +1...! Bottom line, for me, stock exhaust is a thing of beauty, in appearance (subjective) and from an engineering point of view. It deserves an award, IMHO. I have seen no aftermarket improvement to date, other than as a noise generator. Racing teams may have found a way to improve top end with their efforts, but it's going to be tough to beat the stocker for street use. Jack |
