| Author | Message | ||
     Bob_thompson |
Good info guys and thanks for the updates. Hope you had a great time at homecoming. | ||
| Jpfive |
I think I may have another little piece of the 'learning' puzzle. My learned fuel values changed after deactivating the solenoid and installing the noid eliminator. As part of that install, the rear throttle body was locked. My AFV's went from 100F/100R to 99.5F/105R. Neither the reflash, or riding from sea level to above 6000', has affected them in the past. The bike is pulling very strongly, and running well - except for the stutter at 3500 that just won't go away. I have been putting some thought into it, but am not sure why the change now. I made a point of resetting the TPS right after the install, and throttle range is holding rock-solid at 2% - 100%. Throttle range used to change some when the solenoid was working, which irritated me, as it seemed to be choking the bike down - always reducing throttle range at the top end. Any thoughts from the other geniuses out there...?  Jack | ||
| Slypiranna |
Great posts gentlemen and I'm sure now we will break the 100 post count before final resolve is complete BUT it IS right in front of us! I support another flash...however... I always questioned why the majority of 11's have run just fine in this herky jerky zone that some of us have questioned. After all, it has been posted many times here that those on this web forum are a minority of the 11's owners. So why are some of us negs and most positives? Build tolerance? Which keeps us hunting... After all the tests and theories...I ran another test today as I just cannot lay patient in another flash for correction. There are a lot of 11's outside of this forum that are better than some. I simply hooked up the old school carb stix to the t-bodies/feeding the MAP sensor. Even WITH the balance tube for the clutch still in place, I measured a 2 cm of mercury difference. For this reading to be seen WITH the idle air balance and the clutch balance is a minor reading in what the gauge will show after all are separated! After which, I pinched off the two small tubes/one by one leading to the MAP sensor. Mind you, these tubes are very small in i.d...and thus showed the true difference in the pulses within the intake track. My example has never had the factory sealed settings touched on the t-body but this is something worth another deeper looksee. Will post more info as time allows. Also, even with throttles locked out/there is still enough tolerance to allow at least 3-5 degrees of slack in the stock t-bodie's assembly. Not enough to show on the diag screen via tps but enough to bypass air to the A/F ratio equation. The wideband supports all the above and will support final test and tune! The horseblinders are off again...in understanding the simplest of what this learning curve has to prove, solved. | ||
| Xb9 |
Optimally, would there be a separate MAP sensor for each cylinder? | ||
| Slypiranna |
Yes, one would think two separate MAP sensors if your really shooting for true individual cylinder happiness... I've got a few things to try today. Will post this evening. mm | ||
| Slypiranna |
Jpfive, The same has been seen on other bikes as yours. Taking the slack out of the throttle bodies offers the ecu more feedback time within any certain load cell...and/or meeting all the CL AFV parameters. If viewed in real time on a stocker, the tps/load cell would be bouncing around a group of cells without really staying on one for any length of time. I find it hard to get my head around the ability to alter an entire group of cells with any accuracy when such wild input is being offered by the stock tps & map sensors. It is my opinion that there has to be some sort of a time element or window that allows the AFV to correct...OR...perhaps your butterflies/tps were fluttering prior to these mods, outside of the CL AFV parameters? Nice to hear yours is improved though!...If we can just get that low speed herky jerky gone, we will have the perfect street bike!  | ||
| Jpfive |
I agree with your analysis, Slyp. As for bouncing around the cells, I suspect that the EFI uses a form of averaging. The ECM on my Aprilia read a block of four cells at a time, which settled things down as it walked up and down the map. The Tuneboy software that I had for that bike allowed me to watch this on my laptop in real time. Jack | ||
| Slypiranna |
Interesting Jack...if we had a similar method of "rebuilding" this map, we'd be in business! The way this animal works, from what I understand, is that the AFV's only apply a mapwide correction and only in open loop...the base map and CL targets remain the same. If this is wrong, someone please re-educate me. | ||
| Jpfive |
Slyp, your understanding of AFV function is the same that I have come to. It is consistent with what is written in the Electrical Diagnostics Manual, and with my experience with other EFI systems, but nobody from BMC has stepped up to confirm or correct. Jack | ||
| Xb9 |
mm, email sent with spreadsheet.  | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Jack and Sly, if what you say is true, am I running in open or closed loop MOST of the time when I'm going from 4200 ft. to 8000ft. elevation on a normal (spirited) ride as I just did today? If it stayed in one mode how would it respond to the different elevation changes within about 20 minutes. I do not mean to doubt you guys or confuse the issue just trying to learn as we all are and thanks again for all your input. Two things I learned today; after sitting in the garage for a week my bike had some small surging at 2500-3500 rpm which went away after some very spirited riding. And, I found in some slow going, following a big RV up a tight canyon at 15-20 mph, my temperature started going up. It only hit 210 degrees for the coolant as I was keeping the rpm's at 4000 for smooth running. By then the surging had subsided and so I went to 2500 in a higher gear and the temp. came back down to about 185. I attribute this to, at first being in the EPA lean zone, for emission testing purposes and then at a lower rpm a somewhat richer zone which allowed the engine to cool somewhat. Sound reasonable? And I still think the ECM needs to LEARN constantly. Where am I going wrong? Bob | ||
| Xb9 |
Baro sensor should be handling the elevation changes. Riding in the mountains you are in open loop. Gunter posted the steady state cruise parameters earlier in this thread on where the closed loop learning area is. Zac was told at homecoming they recommended 3rd gear 4000 RPM steady state LIGHT load to learn. It should be relatively flat road - no hills with a steady light load. then again I've seen mine adjust while thrashing it at the track - doesn't make sense but ?? who knows for sure. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Dave, that makes sense to me that while the engine is in many different rpm ranges on my ride it is using open loop operation learned from previously being in closed loop. One other thing I forgot to mention; its possible my surging in the first little while of my ride could have been caused by, as some others have reported, a somewhat low battery voltage as after having my battery on a tender all week, I started the bike then shut it right down to adjust the clock and temp. reads and may have drained the battery some while I did that then restarted further reducing batt. voltage. When it was properly charged by riding it was better. Like you and others stated I wish BMC would clearify some of these things. Our dealers are learning even slower then we are. Patience I guess. Still lovin' it. | ||
| Slypiranna |
+1 Xb9 on Bob's post... ...also, surging might have lowered due to battery voltage coming up (stated been sitting)?...and 210-215' F seems the norm in slow speed riding on this machine. It isn't anything more than airflow over the core though as once moving along at a faster speed, it does drop, no matter how lean or rich the engine is. Finally, I don't believe you are doing anything wrong Bob...and thank you for adding much useful information here! It helps us all learn more. Tested the following today; AFV change @ 6 miles, total miles under all conditions, 70. 1. Sync'd t-bodies...no change in the bad zone but noted stabilized MAP readings...AND AFV's changed almost instantly to 100F/105R. CLOSED LOOP A/F readings are more balanced...OPEN LOOP A/F readings are slightly richer on the rear cylinder. 2. Pinched off each of the MAP's vac lines one at a time...no difference. 3. Ran engine under load, in 4th gear @ 3500 rpm for 20 minutes. Physically played with all the throttle linkages and noted a 200 rpm difference allowable via the slack or tolerance in said linkages...but could not alter the bad zone in any positive direction. (I got many looks today as the entire upper end of the intake was missing from the bike to test some of this in real time! By the way, this engine sounds terrible without all the plastic to muffle it!) 4. Disconnected Idle Air Motor...no difference...why did I do this? The idle air bypasses most of the air relevant to the 3000-4000 cruise zone...I did not know this until today. No difference non the less. 5. Checked sync gauge again...but this time at said rpm/load point...NOT sync'd, why? The forward throttle body...just to the rear of the blade, lies a cross drilled port, leading to a blocked off brass connection on the left exterior of the throttle body, probably for a future use tapping point, who knows...BUT, the area this port is located just happens to intersect the same angle the blade lies in at 3500 rpm, under load. Bottom line, perfect sync cannot be done without filling and smoothing this area. This additional area does allow more airflow into the forward cylinder and warrants further efforts. 5. With the AFV's at 100F/105R (a first on this bike) I retested XB9's disconnected o2 test...the last time I did this, the rear cylinder was lean...this time all seemed better but the same herky jerky zone was still there. Final notes...I cannot find any further improvement, anywhere. I would love to hear anywhere else to look though! On to Dave's email...maybe better news there...peace out for tonight, mm (Message edited by slypiranna on July 06, 2008) | ||
| Slypiranna |
Xb9...is...SMOKIN'!!!! Gunter TOO! ! I'm buying the first round of beers to YOU and then to any and all that ride in on 11's that meet up from this thread AFTER herky jerky is calmed down! You all got my key that night! Awesome efforts going on here! Smokin' Thread! | ||
| Sycojomo |
I'd like to try disconnecting the 02 sensors. Before I tear into the bike without a manual would one of you chaps give me some idea of where the connections are? Thanks | ||
| Xb9 |
Sycojomo: curious,do you have drivability issues <4K? Front connector is above the ram air inlet under the steering head (have fun getting your fingers in there. If you have too much trouble, remove the torq screw for the ram air inlet) Rear connector is very accessible under the seat. I would not recommend doing this unless your AFV's are at 100 or greater. | ||
| Sycojomo |
Under 4-4.5k the bike has a terrible lurch. My AFV's are both at 99.5. Thanks for the info, I'll let you know what happens. - Josiah | ||
| Slypiranna |
New flash is out for timing and fuel pump cycling time...mm | ||
| Helicon |
Slypiranna, are you talking about the original re-flash ... or is there actually a second re-flash that you just found out about? | ||
| Slypiranna |
NO...THIS IS a new flash that was just released late last night. It is available for update NOW/Dealers/have em go to HDnet...and at least one has proven to be done in USA, TODAY! A few players have helped this latest version to light, Xb9 is one of them. KEEP this thread alive and learning! (Message edited by slypiranna on July 08, 2008) | ||
| Ajshoots |
I took my bike in for the tranny recall and when I picked it up today they told me they had gotten the reflash and also did that. AFV's remained at 100 100 over 60 miles and a small but noticeable difference in throttle response was noted. I had to ride home in the rain so I babied it but stalling issues I had before weren't as prevelant. I hope to put some miles on in the next few day and see what happens. | ||
| Sycojomo |
My bike now has the solenoid removed, throttle tightened and locked, and the 02 sensors disconnected. There is no doubt that the bike runs better. I have the Buell solenoid eliminator on order. All the testing and thought you guys have done is very appreciated. One odd thing. The left blinker now cycles a lot faster than the right blinker. I'll be going in for the new flash as soon as possible. - Josiah | ||
| Dtx |
If the left blinker is going faster one of the LED lights is out. My left rear one quit working the other week. | ||
| Sycojomo |
Hey what do you know...the left rear is out :-( Thanks for the tip! - Josiah (Message edited by sycojomo on July 08, 2008) | ||
| Cataract2 |
Timing and fuel pump cycling? What'd they change about the fuel pump this time? Timing also? | ||
| Slypiranna |
Less cycling time again on the fuel pump after shutdown... Remapped ignition timing... This is all I know of current. mm | ||
| Baggermike |
I got re flashed yesterday and notice new items in the dio mode, I was afraid to have it done because my bike has been running so good and when I went to leave the dealership the bike had the engine light on and battery light and turned around and headed back and ended up having to push it for 300 yards, I was right bad voltage regulator, so I got re flashed but do not know which one but I had slight surging and now is gone, now I am wondering if I got the first re flash or the second one if there is a second, I also have headers and a supertrapp muffler and when the tech took it for a ride the sound was close to a Harley and not as loud as I thought it was. Now I have to go back and get the oiling issue with fifth gear done, they did not have the parts so I have to go back and then I will see if there is a second re flash and if it is to have it done. I also gained 5 HP + TQ over stock. I will have to wait for tuning products so I can really have the bike set up correctly and should gain even more power. | ||
| Teach |
This question will not be able to be answered, as of yet, but will the new reflash make disconnecting the 02 sensors, the solenoid, etc not needed?? Does anybody know if this was the intention of the new reflash???  | ||
| Slypiranna |
NO NEW FLASH, YET...just an update to it!?!? THE SERVICE MANAGER WAS WRONG...BUT I'LL TAKE THE 10 LASHES!mm |
