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Jos51700
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 12:03 pm: | 
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"
Changing the microstructure of metals does change properties and it can improve tensile strength and rigidity. That is a basic and well known trait in metallurgy. I took metallurgy courses in college and worked with it as a gunsmith. "
I'm no metallurgist, but I've always held that the more strength and rigidity you manufacture into aluminum, the more brittle it becomes.
Looking at the GSXR frame failures, I'm thinking it looks like a brittleness issue, and not necessarily a weakness in design. It looks, well, shattered. (Shadoobie)
Court can probably offer some information here. Aircraft guys typically know alot about aluminum properties.
Having seen the wingtips flex on modern aircraft, without work-hardening or fatiguing anything, I trust 'em.
(Message edited by jos51700 on February 05, 2008) |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 12:32 pm: |
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It's interesting that some of the state of the art aviation products also mix American design and engineering with products sourced from around the world. The Boeing Dreamliner comes to mind.
I'd treat photos and internet stories of frame failures with a touch of skepticism absent knowing the conditions under which the frame failed.
One of the funniest stories, and I'm pissed I left it out of the M-2 chapter of the book, surrounded the failure of a frame.
If I told you and M-2 frame failed . . . well, it'd get spun into all sorts of evil "see I told ya" tales.
Would it impact your opinion if I told you it was at the old American Motors Pacer test track, before a host of Japanese engineers and happened as a Buell landed from 3 stories in the air coming over a jump a bit too enthusiastically . . . . the good news. . . to quote and engineer who shall remain anonymous was "thank goodness he didn't scratch the helmet" (it was a prototype as well).
The engineers. . . . of course thinking Marty did this intentionally, were really impressed with the voracity of the Buell testing team and declined our offer to go riding . . .
For further tails of frame failure and unintentional altitude ask Gary Cravillion, next time you are around the Buell Demo Truck, about the guy who was practicing the cresting the hill exercise at the Law Enforcement School Gary used to teach. After a couple spotters had to grab the bars and pull the guy over the 15' "hump" the first time . . . Gary advised "carry a little more throttle"..
He did.
And you thought all I did was construction work . . .
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Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 12:40 pm: |
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Man Claims Motorcycle Broke In Half
I am an attorney who practices in Florida. I also ride. I ride an Aprillia and have a CBR 600 track day bike. Anyway, I recently took on a client who crashed his 2006 GSXR 1000. We believe that the frame failed. No one wanted to take his case because no one believes the frame just failed. I had a friend look at the bike (racer/mechanic) and he states that he has never seen anything like it. He thinks the frame failed. So do I. My client will soon be taken off life support. He will leave a wife and children behind.
I'm speculating
I know Jack. Just like the attorney and his biking buddy!
And for a bike riding attorney that owns an Aprilia, his case is pretty weak, make that useless, when he can't even spell the name of the bike he owns correctly.
Rocket |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 12:41 pm: |
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What the ablation casting does is quench the exterior of the casting, making for EXTREMELY small grain formation at the surfaces. Small grains = better tensile strength and generally more elongation (strain) before failure (strain-to-failure)
The quench fluid and quench rate - and tooling materials used are where the art and science have evolved.
What you have in effect is a gradient of grain size from small on the exterior to larger in the interior.
Also since you are cooling unevenly (outside to inside) - you MAY have higher tensile stress on the outer surfaces (where the actual loads are largely seen) Interior MAY then be slightly stressed in compression - analogous to tempered glass having higher tensile strength and strain-to-failure compared to normally-cooled glass (that statement is a personal guess, no test data in my hands: we're still looking into the process itself)
End result (whether or not there is an advantage of internal stresses) - is you have an aluminum with HIGHER tensile strength AND ALSO higher strain-to-failure.
It is worth looking into.
Our Fort Worth folks are actually putting money into detailed investigation of the Ablation Casting process in 2009. We don't go in for materials fads here despite what some of the above personalities may indicate.
(Message edited by slaughter on February 05, 2008) |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 12:51 pm: |
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I studied an 1125R frame at lunch today, and if there are welding or distortion defects, I couldn't see them, even when looking for them.
There was a slight bow on both sides where the frame curves from the neck to the side rails, but it looked like an organic part of a purpose designed frame, like the same subtle effect of a really fit person in a dressy outfit. It gave a cool "there is a lot more going on under the covers" look.
The refractive blue paint made it easier to spot, if it was the grey or black of the other bikes, I doubt I could even see it.
The exhaust welds looked fine as well. A weld is a weld. If I studied it, I might be able to choose other aesthetic attributes they may have had, but a weld there is still a weld there.
If you want to see ugly, look at the cast engine parts on a Ducati 998. For $23,000 (or whatever it cost), you would think it would have a better looking engine casting them my 1995 Saturn. No wonder they put a fairing on it... ;)
(Not that an ugly engine casting would keep me from enjoying a 998 if anyone ever wishes to give me one ). |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 12:54 pm: |
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Pisses me off when I agree with Rocket but his post above is spot on.
Reminds me of some of the assumptions folks have made about the 1125R. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 01:15 pm: |
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Reminds me of some of the assumptions folks have made about the 1125R.
My own assumptions are formed within a 'beautiful mind'.
Rocket |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 01:17 pm: |
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"And for a bike riding attorney that owns an Aprilia, his case is pretty weak, make that useless, when he can't even spell the name of the bike he owns correctly.
Rocket"
You misspelled it yourself just a few posts back. Just saying, pots n' kettles..... |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 01:23 pm: |
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Our Fort Worth folks are actually putting money into detailed investigation of the Ablation Casting process in 2009. We don't go in for materials fads here despite what some of the above personalities may indicate.
You're not suggesting Buell are guinea pigging this technology on their customers are you?
Rocket |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 01:33 pm: |
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You misspelled it yourself just a few posts back.
Clearly a typo, as I spelt it correct in the same paragraph.
Go take a look at Aprila's RSV Mille (just as one example). It's designed to do exactly the same, and does do exactly the same. Maybe Aprilia forgot to patent it.
Rocket |
Blue_eyed_buellgirl
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 02:42 pm: |
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What a load of romantic old twaddle. It's a motorcycle.
You are right. It's kinda like.....Well.. Mophead Englishmen with Ducati burns on there lips.
Mind you, Jarhead is kinda ugly.
Thats one mans opinion. Being an American Buellgirl, I think a Jarhead is extremely sexy! It represents a STRONG, FIT and CAPABLE MAN . So when you see him coming just move out of his lane. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 03:02 pm: |
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Yeah, but a Jarhead would get his arse whooped by a Royal Marine Commando. And RMC don't have dumb haircuts.
Rocket |
Blue_eyed_buellgirl
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 03:23 pm: |
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A girls opinion of the 1125R Motorcycle.
I think the 1125R Motorcycle has a very sexy masculine look. From the front view it reminded me of a Marine with his chest pumped up looking stunning in his uniform. It definitely has the look of a MANS bike. Still one of these days I will find out where Unibear has been hiding the keys and take it out for a ride.
I have ridden on the back and was very surprised how comfortable it was. Nothing like the Uly but much better than the firebolt. And how it handled 2up was great. I was impressed with the power it has. I loved the feel of the tires gripping the pavement as we took the corners at highspeeds. I felt very safe.
So in my opinion, I think it is the nicest looking new Motorcycle out there.
But I do have to say I am partial to my 99 Thunderbolt S3.
Sincerely Buell Loyal,
Blue Eyed Buellgirl |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 03:43 pm: |
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"Clearly a typo, as I spelt it correct in the same paragraph. "
Judge and ye shall be be judged! Maybe Mr. AttorneyMan would say the same thing?
At least his finger was already on the "L"....
Now, what about "spelt"? |
Spectrum
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 03:46 pm: |
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Yeah, but a Jarhead would get his arse whooped by a Royal Marine Commando. And RMC don't have dumb haircuts.
Wrong and your usual unsubstantiated BS Rocket.
I was stationed with the Marine boxing team and they had tournaments with the Royal Marines twice a year. Historically the US Marines win those matches 3 to 1. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 03:48 pm: |
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Yabbut THEIR Marines looked prettier. To some people that is the most important thing. |
Concor
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 05:57 pm: |
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Rocket knows all about pretty girlie things, he works on saabs |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 07:31 pm: |
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Now, what about "spelt"?
Kings English mate. We wrote the language, remember?
I was stationed with the Marine boxing team and they had tournaments with the Royal Marines twice a year. Historically the US Marines win those matches 3 to 1.
Boxing is a sport. Has nothing to do with military training or service, and never won any wars. As for unsubstantiated, RMC training is regarded as the hardest military test in the world. Needless to say, every RMC has to pass, otherwise you're not RMC.
Rocket |
Socoken
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 07:40 pm: |
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Comparing the RMC to U.S. Marines isnt apples to apples. Maybe Delta or SEALS (which have a large percentage of Marines in them) would be fair.
I did work with some Brit soldiers during the invasion of Iraq, ask them what they thought of Marines!!!
Stick to motorcycles. |
Spectrum
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 07:42 pm: |
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We did a lot of joint training exercise with the Royal Marines. So I will say they are as well trained as the US Marines. Now as to who would win if the two went to war, that would be more BS and speculation. But I'm sure that wouldn't stop you Rocket. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 07:44 pm: |
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he works on saabs
I often find myself laughing at such comments. They really highlight some peoples ignorance.
Get a clue.............
http://www.saabgroup.com/en/ProductsServices/produ cts_az.htm
Rocket |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 07:47 pm: |
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But I'm sure that wouldn't stop you Rocket.
You're right. I'd just ask my mates.
Here's Chris.
Rocket |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 07:49 pm: |
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Here's Rob. 45 Command TA.
I can't post Pete. He's SAS.
Rocket |
M2nc
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 09:36 pm: |
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I studied an 1125R frame at lunch today, and if there are welding or distortion defects, I couldn't see them, even when looking for them.
The blemishes are not on all 1125R.
The refractive blue paint made it easier to spot, if it was the grey or black of the other bikes, I doubt I could even see it.
This is very true. I do not know if Buell powder coats their own parts or if this is also outsourced. I know if they received the parts unpainted, they probably could not have seen it when first received from the supplier. We have the same problem with our dark grey powder coat. Blemishes can not be seen on bare steel become very obvious when painted. We had quite a learning curve after installing our powder coating system.
As for liquid cooling and the effects on the metal, it reduces its malleability. The process makes the steel more resistant to bend. But for anyone who has ever operated a CNC brake press and was given a flat blank mistakenly cut out of cold rolled steel (yeah, done that), you know instead of forming like hot rolled steel, it cracks and breaks. The process of cooling metal to get the desired effect takes a metallurgist. But what do I know, I am just an Assembly guy.
I will say that I have thoroughly test the Uly frame and it preformed beautifully. I would not have blind faith that the 1125R's frame is stronger than the XB frame. The XB frame actually has to carry greater loads since it is the entire backbone of the bike. The 1125R has a huge advantage with the motor as part of the structure. The combination of frame and motor I have no doubt is stronger though. |
Jpfive
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 09:59 pm: |
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As a United States Marine 'til death, I would like to stop this thread from degenerating further into an unseemly cheer leading match vis a vis the merits of two fine services. I salute the Royal Marines - and I'm glad that, through two world wars, and a number of other conflicts, we have been on the same side.
Jack |
Cataract2
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 10:05 pm: |
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Hey M2. The XB motor is also a stressed member of the frame. Same with the 1125R.
(Message edited by Cataract2 on February 05, 2008) |
M2nc
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 10:15 pm: |
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Not same, but yes is a stress member. Look at the link points and tell me which is stronger. The XB frame is assisted by the engine but is not a rigid mount, where the 1125R the engine is a rigid mount to the frame and swing arm.
"Its rigidity is aided by the engine, which is a rigid stressed member of the chassis. "
XB motor is not rigid mount.
"The pivot point of the cast-aluminium swing arm is located in the engine cases to create a more direct connection between the rear wheel, the frame, and the front wheel."
(Message edited by M2nc on February 05, 2008) |
Concor
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 11:49 am: |
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"I often find myself laughing at such comments. They really highlight some peoples ignorance".
Me too, thats why your comments about the RMC and Marines is ignorant.Explain to a simpleton like me all the years you spent in both services to have first hand knowledge of both.
USMC 1991-1995 29 Palms.} |
Spectrum
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 12:00 pm: |
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I know I participated in this banter, but I have to agree with Jack. I was in the Marine Corp from 1976-1982. I made some good friends from the RM while doing joint training exercises and have kept in touch with 2 of them for over 20 years. I just got back from a 2 week visit to the UK and got to spend time with both. I have great respect for the RM's and am also glad we have always fought on the same side. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 01:36 pm: |
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Me too, thats why your comments about the RMC and Marines is ignorant.Explain to a simpleton like me all the years you spent in both services to have first hand knowledge of both.
Before we get bent out of shape, I merely joked about how fugly the Jarhead haircut was. Jarhead is after all meant to be a nickname based on looking like a jar. So please don't try turning the tables on me. There's a big difference between humourous comment and ignorant comment.
Rocket |
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