| Author | Message | ||
     Thunderbox |
Well maybe we are going to find out who can show who. Crevier To Race Buell 1125R In 2008 Parts Canada Superbike Championship Jan 23, 2008 Copyright 2008, Roadracing World Publishing, Inc. From a press release issued by Parts Canada Superbike Championship organizers: TORONTO, Ont. – Deeley Harley-Davidson Canada will step up to the feature class of the Parts Canada Superbike Championship in 2008 with a team running its new Buell 1125R. Six-time Canadian Superbike champion Steve Crevier of Maple Ridge, BC is expected to lead a two-rider squad, which will likely be run by the Picotte Performance team headed by Pascal Picotte. The Buell Superbike program will be independent of its entry in the recently revamped Thunder class for twin-cylinder motorcycles. “Adding the Buell and Harley-Davidson names to our headline class is obviously a huge step for the Parts Canada Superbike Championship,” said Colin Fraser of Professional Motorsports Productions, which organizes the national series. “This should increase interest in the series significantly and with Steve Crevier aboard one of these bikes there is no telling how competitive the Buell could be.” This will be the only Superbike-class program for the Buell 1125R anywhere in the world. The bike, which was launched last summer, is powered by an 1125cc liquid-cooled engine built by the Austrian Rotax concern, a division of Bombardier Recreational Products. Former road racer Erik Buell is celebrating his 25th anniversary as a motorcycle constructor, and has distinguished himself through the years with his innovative and sometimes off-beat designs. Harley-Davidson acquired a majority interest in his company in 1993. “We’ve had ongoing discussions with Buell and they told us that they can develop the horsepower of this bike to be respectable in the Superbike class,” said Ric Marrero, Marketing Programs and Events Director for Deeley Harley-Davidson Canada. “Another factor in our decision was the fact that there are several good riders available, one being Mr. Crevier, who we fully intend to put on this Superbike.” Crevier is the most successful racer in the history of the Canadian Superbike series. In addition to his record six titles he has won 26 races in the feature class, more than any other rider. Last season he finished second in the Parts Canada Superbike Championship behind Jordan Szoke, winning the final three races of the year on the Toyota Team Yamaha / Fast Company Yamaha YZF-R1. A second rider for the program is expected to be confirmed in the next couple of weeks. The twin-cylinder Buell will be at a horsepower disadvantage to the more potent four-cylinder motorcycles of Japanese rivals Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki and Yamaha. While that may handicap the bike at a high speed circuit like Bowmanville, Ont.’s Mosport International Raceway, it will prove less of a disadvantage at some of the tighter tracks on the Parts Canada Superbike tour, such as Atlantic Motorsport Park in Shubenacadie, N.S. “Obviously, this bike has never been raced at this level so we have to be realistic in our expectations,” Marrero said. “But we wouldn’t be getting into this program if we didn’t think the Buell could perform respectably.” As with all motorcycles in the Parts Canada Superbike Championship, the Buell 1125R will run on Pirelli spec tires. Pirelli is entering the third year of its deal to develop spec tires for the Canadian national series. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Rocket, in how many countries around the EU / UK can you really "fix" the stock 1098? Last time I was in Germany, it was fairly frequent to see the green Audi's with two or three bikes pulled in behind them. The cop was sitting there with a hand held decibel meter, another beside him ready to write a ticket. It did not look wise to me messing with T.U.V. I thought France was similiar, in that they had pretty aggressive "leave it stock HP" rules, and pretty massive penalties if you mess with it. That was a good site. Lots of thought put into the analysis by a guy that clearly knew his stuff. Time for a new quantum physics theory... the Ducatti Uncertainty Theory... a stock 1098 can make 150 HP on a dyno, but only when no one is looking, and if you do measure it, it will immediately cease to exist...  | ||
| Elvis |
Frankly if we are to believe a 1098 is close to an 1125 in power output, Ducati might as well call it a day with their desmo 1100cc 4 valve motor. All hail the Helicon! Why is it so hard to believe that Rotax - arguably one of the best manufacturers of light-weight engines in the world - given roughly the same displacement and similar layout - can't make an engine with comparable power to Ducati? Ducati's one of my favorite manufacturers, but they don't walk on water. It's really not logical to basically take the position: "The 1125R obviously can't be as good as the 1098, because . . . it's DUCATI." Has Ducati's marketing really convinced you that their racing success is all about their amazing street bikes as opposed to their commitment of vast resources toward racing? (Message edited by elvis on January 28, 2008) | ||
| Rocketman |
Actually, nearly every 1098 dyno available shows a nice flat spot through the midrange. Speculation. I don't call a dip of 300 or so rpm either side of 5000rpm a flat spot. Go ride one. All will become clear. they had pretty aggressive "leave it stock HP" rules, and pretty massive penalties if you mess with it. Germany and Switzerland very strict. As for leaving the HP stock, that's bull shit. There are no rules. Tune, replace, modify, fit what you like. Yes exhaust systems have to carry a Euro mark, or in the UK a British Standard Kite Mark which complies with Euro legislation, but that hasn't stopped anyone yet. Sure the odd one or two get nicked for running 'illegal' pipes. You'd still be hard pressed to find a Ducati sportsbike running anything but Termi's, Arrow, JHP or similar. And the funny thing is, we all have to pass the MOT test every year. That's the day Ducati owners swap back to stock pipes, then back to aftermarket after passing the test  That said, loads of MOT testers are bikers working in the industry, so they turn a blind eye. My 916 has passed every MOT in years gone by with a full Termignoni system fitted. My S1W has had the Buell Race Kit system fitted from the day I bought the S1W new in 1998. That is one totally illegal for road use system, that no one from MOT test to Traffic cop has ever had an interest in. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
“Obviously, this bike has never been raced at this level so we have to be realistic in our expectations,” Marrero said. “But we wouldn’t be getting into this program if we didn’t think the Buell could perform respectably.” I'd be very concerned if I heard these same words spoken by Ducati of their 1098 Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
"If they ever raced F1 were the cars had the same weight of fuel in an adequate amount to finish the race from start to finish, without stopping for a tea break and visor wash several times in the hour, we might see how the cars and their respective performance really work." So now a race isn't a race if there's pit stops? Honda was MAKING MORE POWER AND CHEATING on the fuel issue and still couldn't beat them. McLaren had the RUSSIAN EFFING KGB spying on Renault and Ferrari and still couldn't beat Renault. And Renault was about 50 HP down. That's ~5.2% (at the PEAK). So again you cement my theory that you don't understand racing. This was over the course of an F1 CHAMPIONSHIP... Not an eight lap sprint race on a go-kart track. Did you watch ANY of the MotoGP races this year? If so do you have the ability to judge distance between two racers? I thought not. I say that because in the beginning of the year the Ducati was pulling away from the field all the way down the straights. By about race four the Ducati was only making real distance out of the turns and for a couple hundred yards down the straight. By the end of the season it was making a little ground coming out of the turns and next to nothing after about 100 yards. Why? Because the rest of the teams were making progress IN THE MID-RANGE. Why do you suppose Rossi was so upset about the tires? Was it because he didn't have enough power? NO. It was because his bike wasn't handling the way he would like and the tires were going away. He was more concerned with handling than with the obvious power deficit compared to the duck. Yes... I'm quite sure we'll see a 1098 beat an 1125. Positive even. But I'm also sure we'll see 1125's beating 1098s. Why? Cause it's about the indian... Not the arrow. We both know this. Why are you showing your ass with this? It's unbecoming. | ||
| Rocketman |
Why is it so hard to believe that Rotax - arguably one of the best manufacturers of light-weight engines in the world - given roughly the same displacement and similar layout - can't make an engine with comparable power to Ducati? I never said they couldn't. Just that a stock 1125 is not going to hand a stock 1098 its arse in a hat. I wish some could read clearly. It's really not logical to basically take the position: "The 1125R obviously can't be as good as the 1098, because . . . it's DUCATI." What is logical is that one bike is designed to multi task. The other is pretty much focused on one specific task. I never said the 1125 can't be as good as a 1098 either, but you're probably right, it can't be. Has Ducati's marketing really convinced you that their racing success is all about their amazing street bikes as opposed to their commitment of vast resources toward racing? Ducati have convinced me for years that they make the best sportsbikes in the world. That they do so with a higher degree of quality than any other mass production manufacturer is not in question. Even taking into account Ducatis vast racing budget. Are you of the opinion the Desmocedici RR suffers from budget constraints due to Ducatis financial commitment to their racing program? How about Ducatis other models? Do they appear to you as suffering too? I don't think so Elvis. It would seem illogical that a stock 1098 puts down a mere 20 more HP at the rear wheel than what a nearly 200cc less displacement 916 did on average 15 years ago. That there are many here who want to believe such is only because that's where the 1125 is going to average out. Plenty of wishful thinking me thinks. What a croc o' shite. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
So now a race isn't a race if there's pit stops? Honda was MAKING MORE POWER AND CHEATING on the fuel issue and still couldn't beat them. McLaren had the RUSSIAN EFFING KGB spying on Renault and Ferrari and still couldn't beat Renault. And Renault was about 50 HP down. Forgive my ignorance, but I don't follow F1 these days. I keep my nose in, is about all. I do know this much though. Last season Lewis Hamilton joined the circuit as a Rookie. I know he finished the championship as the best rookie scorer of all time. I also know he won several races, and scored plenty of podiums too. But for the last race of the season eluding him, he could have won the Formula 1 Drivers World Crown. As it was he finished runner up. Last time I looked he was a McLaren man and still is since 11 years old. Then there was the eventual winner of the Formula 1 Drivers World Crown. That would be Kimi Raikkonen, who also won several races last season. Last time I looked he was driving a Ferrari. What is it you were saying I don't understand about F1 racing?  Could it be that you're attempting to imply that a lesser powered stock 1125 can beat a stock 1098? No of course not. You want to involve all the parameters of the motorcycle racing world in the hope that somewhere an 1125 can exploit other areas in an effort to be whatever it is you expect of it. Given Ducati are the World Champions, I think you're on a hiding to nothing, regardless. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
I can't be bothered to argue about Rossi, but it was not about the mid range, and his bike was way down on power. Stoner did not get caught up a little towards the season end either. In fact he said himself he eased off and took it steady. But there is a Moto GP thread for this stuff. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Yes... I'm quite sure we'll see a 1098 beat an 1125. Positive even. But I'm also sure we'll see 1125's beating 1098s. Why? Cause it's about the indian... Not the arrow. No it's about the rider, and if the same rider could race himself he'd always win on the 1098 would be my assumption. We both know this. Why are you showing your ass with this? It's unbecoming. Why over exaggerate the strength of an 1125? It's unbecoming, and frankly, very American. Rocket | ||
| Doerman |
So when a motorcycle is taken to the track to compete there's a lot more to it than just the ride: - the rider - the tuner - the team It is a team that wins not any single ingredient as outlined above. Are you saying that 1125R with a good team, tuner and rider can not beat a 1098? Ever? Over any ingredient combination involving a 1098? I know the argument started with "stock" vs "stock", and I state again. There are no stock bikes in a competitive race so the stock vs stock is a mute point. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The stock 1098 would probably have made 150 HP.... But the dyno operators visor fogged before he got it in 5th gear and he had to back off....  | ||
| Jpfive |
Why over exaggerate the strength of an 1125? It's unbecoming, and frankly, very American. Hmmm...would that be like saying that being condescending is very British...? | ||
| Rocketsprink |
I thought you said stock bikes Sean? No race bikes. I will agree with you on one point. F1 has lost it's luster. | ||
| Rocketman |
I did say stock bikes, and at a track that suits neither bike. I did not throw racing type versions at any level into the mix either. The point being we could not reliably know if the comparison would be balanced equally if we were to do so. So stock v stock, and I'd assume as I said already, the worlds press will test those bikes. Surely given enough test examples we can work out a result from a press related data base can't we? After all, I'm not crossing an ocean to go bench racing. It's bad enough wasting away my small hours as it is doing so, as I'm sure many will agree. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
There are no stock bikes in a competitive race so the stock vs stock is a mute point. So two riders take a stock 1098 and a stock 1125 to an empty race track and proceed to each go around the race track faster than the other. That is not them racing? Wow So two riders take a stock 1098 and a stock 1125 to a canyon road and proceed to each go along the canyon road faster than the other. That is not them racing? Wow So two riders take a stock 1098 and a stock 1125 to the Isle of Man and proceed to each go along the TT course faster than the other. That is not them racing? Wow Rocket | ||
| Freezerburn |
Rocket You seem to be scratching yer head a lot. Got dandruff? LOL If you scratch too hard you'll get bald spots. DAMHIK | ||
| Spike |
How is looking at the available dyno charts speculation?
On the Motorcyclist chart it appears to span from 4500-6000rpm. On the chart below it appears to span from 4k to 6k rpm. Maybe glasses in order? | ||
| Jpfive |
Wheeler has dyno'd three of my bikes on this dyno - also several belonging to my riding buds. It is not a friendly dyno, always returning results less than the mags on their ride reports. Others, comparing to runs on other dynos, estimate Wheeler's dyno at 8-10% low. Not meaning to give Rocket ammo, but this would put the subject 1098 into the 140HP range. I guess that the larger point is - all dynos are different, and comparing results of one bike to another, and both on different dynos, with different operators, is a fruitless exercise. The reason I use Wheeler is to keep things consistent relative to my bikes, and I know that I will see him twice a year. The fact that the numbers are on the low side serves to keep one from getting too cocky. Jack | ||
| Rocketman |
How is looking at the available dyno charts speculation? We've seen a handful of charts for the 1098 running stock, running piped, running rich, running whatever. We've seen a handful of charts for the 1098 from only two dyno's. One in Australia. One in the US. That you assume all 1098's be the same, whether time and more evidence supports your view, for now it is nothing more than speculation. On the Motorcyclist chart it appears to span from 4500-6000rpm. On the chart below it appears to span from 4k to 6k rpm. Consistency then eh? lol. If I were you I'd do like I did. Go ride one and find that flat spot for yourself. Might I suggest, you take a change of underwear along.  Rocket | ||
| Doerman |
So two riders take a stock 1098 and a stock 1125 to an empty race track and proceed to each go around the race track faster than the other. That is not them racing? Yes. That is racing without the support of a team and conditions that verify outcome other than who crossed the finish line first(who knows what the two bikes are equipped with). Besides. It is a race between two riders that happen to be on similar bikes. The best rider will win. So two riders take a stock 1098 and a stock 1125 to a canyon road and proceed to each go along the canyon road faster than the other. That is not them racing? Nope. That's not racing. Competition on the street is illegal and conditions do not allow for any reasonable accuracy in collecting believable data So two riders take a stock 1098 and a stock 1125 to the Isle of Man and proceed to each go along the TT course faster than the other. That is not them racing? I'll put that in the same category as in the canyon, so it is not racing for the same reasons. ----------------------------------- Actual racing requires sanctioning and rules of engagement, wouldn't you agree? This past weekend I dusted three GSXRs (two of the 1K and one of the .75K variety). All that means is that the combination of myself and the 1125R beat the GSXR and its combination of riders on that particular day and canyon road. Later on in the same day and road I was put to shame by a guy on a GS1200. Although it was a lot of fun, the "results" from this risky endeavor have no relevance. Nail down the rules for this bet would you? By the way, I'm not betting anything. But you are shifting the sands here and making it impossible for a reasonable comparison between the 1125R and the 1098. The coming racing season and magazines will sort this out. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Sean, Are you in the very same Black Widows biker gang from the Clint Eastwood movie "Every which way but loose?" | ||
| Rocketman |
Nope. That's not racing. Competition on the street is illegal and conditions do not allow for any reasonable accuracy in collecting believable data. Pussycat. Actual racing requires sanctioning and rules of engagement, wouldn't you agree? Like hell I do. Racing is a bunch of die hards on motorbikes riding as fast as they can \ dare on any public highway with little regard for other road users or pedestrians. F**k the law. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Nail down the rules for this bet would you? By the way, I'm not betting anything. But you are shifting the sands here and making it impossible for a reasonable comparison between the 1125R and the 1098. Are you having trouble translating the Kings English? Stock v stock, neither road or track favouring either bike. How the f**k is that me making it impossible for a reasonable comparison? NOTHING COULD BE MORE SIMPLER. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
This past weekend I dusted three GSXRs (two of the 1K and one of the .75K variety). All that means is that the combination of myself and the 1125R beat the GSXR and its combination of riders on that particular day and canyon road. Later on in the same day and road I was put to shame by a guy on a GS1200. Although it was a lot of fun, the "results" from this risky endeavor have no relevance. Actually they do. They show that American riders haven't a clue how to ride sportsbikes. Which perhaps explains why they think an 1125 is capable of beating a 1098 too. Rocket | ||
| Doerman |
Like hell I do. Racing is a bunch of die hards on motorbikes riding as fast as they can \ dare on any public highway with little regard for other road users or pedestrians. F**k the law. Well, then. By that set of rules we have established the following by Asbjorn's anecdotal weekend escapades where the law was totally set aside and all: The 1125R is faster than GSXR 1K and 750 but slower than a BMW 1200GS. Agreed? (not that I agree) | ||
| Rocketman |
How do I know. I wasn't there. Maybe you're a legend in your own underpants? Rocket | ||
| Ccryder |
Sean: No wonder you didn't feel the "dip" you are not riding a stock 1098. Besides the slip-ons, what else has been "tweaked"??? Looks like the "kit" comes with the carbon slip-on, air filter and ECU (stock, me thinks not!!)  No to compare the almighty 1098 to a mere FI Tuber but, changing the ECM and slip-on cleared up the dip they had in their torque curve. I even heard some people complain since they didn't feel that surge, when it came back on the pipe like stock. Later Neil S. (Message edited by ccryder on January 28, 2008) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Bigot. | ||
| Doerman |
Oh my God. It is worse than I thought! The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle strikes a 1098 even during customer's test rides and not just at the dynos! A bike that can't be nailed down and maybe does not exist under certain observation angles. Wait until DOT gets wind of this.  |
