| Author | Message | ||
     Rocketsprink |
Expert SuperTwins Pos Laps Number Bike Size Name 1 8 26 SUZ 100 DAVE ROSNO, EAGLE, WI. SuperDave's-Race-Against-Childhood-Cance 2 8 34 SUZ 650 ED KEY, MARSHALL, WI. Motorcycle Performance,Pirelli,EBC, 3 8 9 BUE 120 PAUL JAMES, WAUKESHA, WI. Hal's Speed Shop,Buell,Pirelli,Kegel Mot 4 8 374 DUC 999 JOSEPH LEE, PEWAUKEE, WI. Corse-SBK,Ducati,Michelin,Klotz,VP,Ferod ,Brembo 5 8 55 SUZ 650 JONNY MOORE, MARQUETTE, MI. Rock River Powersports,Lithium 6 8 143 SUZ 650 STEVE ALEXANDER, CHICAGO, IL. G2G Racing,Dunlop,Pitbull,Sharkskinz, 7 8 391 BUE 120 MARK BERNARD, ROCKFORD, IL. Kegel's HD/Buell,C.E.R.F. Racing, 8 8 522 BUE 120 ROBERT PIROG, WESTCHESTER, IL. Illinois Ha OH MY GOD!! Sean! You stand corrected!!! Look!! Even beat (and so was the Buell) by 2 SV's!! Better do a little more research before you open your big mouth. I know. Now you'll come up with some bullshit excuse. I will take you up on that bet too. (Message edited by rocketsprink on January 27, 2008) (Message edited by rocketsprink on January 27, 2008) | ||
| Rocketsprink |
SUPERTWINS EXPERT: 1. Shawn Higbee (Buell XB12R); 2. Nate Kern (BMW R 1200 S); 3. Garrett Rick (Duc 1000); 4. Paul James (Buell XB12R); 5. Joseph Lee (Duc 999); 6. Tom Montano (BMW R 1200 S). Oh look. More. From July of 2007 at Road America. Can't call that a Go Kart Track. | ||
| Rocketman |
THEY'RE RACE BIKES WORKED ON BY RACE TEAMS AND RACED ON RACE TRACKS - THEREFORE SUBJECT TO INDIVIDUALS, BUDGETS, AND MANY OTHER PARAMETERS THAT CAN INFLUENCE EITHER MACHINE EITHER WAY. STOCK v STOCK out of the box 12r v 999. Not race bikes! Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
I will take you up on that bet too. 1125r v 1098, stock v stock, any track anywhere, except a go-kart track which pretty much limits the virtues of any bike, where even a midi moto could beat a 1098. What's at stake? Rocket | ||
| Doerman |
It is an impossible bet. Once a bike is prepped for the track it is no longer stock by definition. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Now it's stock versus stock? I see that as an impossible bet. Who's riding them? Where? When? You flying here to witness it? I'm flying there? Who picks the riders? The Track? I'm not going by lap times. Heads up racing. How, pray tell, will this contest be set up? I knew there was an excuse waiting. | ||
| Rocketman |
We were discussing the 1098, not 1098S, to which MCN dyno tested at 144rwhp. On that basis it seems clear to me that the 1125 is not going to beat, better, compete, against a 1098 in performance. That you chose to put up a 12r beating a 999 as possible evidence to suggest it could happen is ridiculous. As proof, you post up results from race bikes, not streetbikes. So no it is not "now it's stock versus stock". It was always stock v stock. As for our wager, I think we are clever enough to see what the motorcycle press offer up, and work out the statistics from there. The results should be pretty obvious. If not I'm sure we can debate it for long enough. But what is it you're offering me for you losing? Rocket | ||
| Darkice19 |
I live in Omaha Nebraska so im centrally located. If someone can find me a Ducati 1098 stock to race ill do it. I dont think anyone in Nebraska owns a 1098 because the gayness would be overwhelming. Ill drive a few hundred miles for a race. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Again, going off spec sheets and magazine articles? Always the excuses with you. The point of the 12R and 999 info is to show YOU that just because a bike is better on paper, doesn't mean it will always be better at the track, street, or however you decide to compare them for the results to come out in your favor. FYI, the Ducati Joe Lee raced was 999R. Paul James 12 has 9 pistons, an ohlins rear shock, Pro Series springs in the forks and a chain conversion. Wow. That 12 was really built to the hilt. So according to you, the only way to see who's right is by magazine articles? Not by results by racing. Good luck with that one. Will the 1098 beat the 1125? Yes. Will the 1125 beat the 1098? Yes. Are you really that ignorant to think it is impossible!?  | ||
| Reepicheep |
Did some googling and found a custom tuned 1098s... http://www.ducatidesmosedicirr.net/forum/showthrea d.php?t=499 Looks like it just cracked 150 RWHP. Sounds like MCN either has a happy dyno, Ducatti sent them a cherry picked bike, or the people that are buying the 1098S are paying an awful lot of money for 6 hp. And that power curve on the 1098 was uuuuuugggggllllllllyyyyyy! | ||
| Blake |
Yes. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Did a little more googling... From this link, where there is some great discussion, and a nice summary plot at the end (that I took the liberty of reposting here, with attribution)... http://www.moto-one.com.au/performance/1098withtermi70mm.html The green is a 1098 (not a 1098S) but with a full custom Tergomoni and some tuning.  Also from that same page, the explanation: "Anyway, the next graph shows this 1098 in green, a 54mm full system 999S in red, a big valved, 54mm full system 999S in blue, a 998S in yellow and a 996 in pink. The 1098, 999S and 998S all run the same 107/107 (105/109) cam timing, the 996 108/108 cam timing. The 996 gets creamed at the top end due to its little valves, but the 1098 should be 10% better in the midrange due to its 10% greater capacity. It’s not, and that’s disappointing." (Message edited by reepicheep on January 27, 2008) | ||
| Turk |
Looks to me like from the power curve posted on the 1098, there'd be a sizeable dip in the torque curve starting around 4.5K that it doesn't start to pull out of until around 7K. Don't remember seeing that on the 1125 power curve (line). Advantage 1125R. | ||
| Rocketman |
So let me get this right. We have an argument that MCN's stock 1098 dynoed at 144rwhp, making the 1098S a rip off for only 6 more HP, or MCN's test hack was cherry picked because you found a bloke who dynoed a 1098 with the wrong exhaust system and was disappointed with the power below the top end? Face facts. An 1125 is not going to beat a 1098 no matter how many dyno charts you muster against a 1098's claimed or tested performance figures. Rocket | ||
| Reepicheep |
There is another 1098 plot on that same site... 137 peak SAE RWHP. Bone stock. Thats also consitent with the deals gap dyno plot thats been kicking around. Sounds pretty competitive with an 1125R to me... especially given the friendlier torque curve of the Buell. I think both are great bikes. (Message edited by reepicheep on January 27, 2008) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Here is the link by the way... http://www.moto-one.com.au/performance/1098dptermihomo.html And here is the plot. Green is bone stock 1098 at 1000 miles.  | ||
| Rocketman |
Sprinkster, why are you trying to complicate the issue? I explained how the conversation was focused just recently on the 1098 as tested by MCN at 144rwhp. That is the basis of my comment stating an 1125 is not going to beat a 1098. That you disagree with my belief should be the basis of any wager. You have no need to cement your belief an 1125 will beat a 1098 by pointing out a 'built to the hilt' 12r beat a 999. We were not debating the merits of tuned versions. We were actually focusing very purposely on the stock 1098 because some find them hard to find. Given in time many motorcycle publications around the world will test both bikes, maybe even back to back, I assumed we were capable and intelligent enough to arrive at a conclusion based on such publications findings, thus solving the problem of 3000 miles of water separating us. If you wish to argue the semantics of any kind of wager, clearly you are not confident enough to believe you backed a winner. Either place your bet, and offer your stake, or back down. No more excuses. What have you in mind? How about, if I lose I send you a nice gift? Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
It's becoming more apparent their 1000km customer 1098 is not representative of the stock 1098. Ask yourself a question. Do you think Ducati would have brought the 1098 to market as a 999 replacement, yet only give the 1098 2.3 more HP? I'm happy to take MCN's 144rwhp as representative. 131.1 just doesn't ring true with me. Either that 1098 is shafted, or the dyno or dyno operator is. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Thanks for the links by the way. That's a very informative site. Especially if you're into European, well Italian really, motorcycles. Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
"I explained how the conversation was focused just recently on the 1098 as tested by MCN at 144rwhp. That is the basis of my comment stating an 1125 is not going to beat a 1098." So because a 1098 makes more power (at the peak no less...) an 1125 can't hope to beat it? You apparently don't understand racing. The 2006 Renault F1 car was nearly 50HP down on the Toyota. Which car won the championship and why? OK I'll tell you... The Ranault because it had a MUCH more broad power curve. OK fine... The Toyota didn't have the greatest handling or the best drivers. Well... The Renault beat Kimi in a McLaren and SCHUMACHER in a Ferrari... Please get a clue about what's actually important in racing before you run off at the mouth Sean. You're a Britt... It's not proper form for you to not understand racing. I'm just sayin'. EXIT SPEED IS THE KING ONCE YOU'RE IN THE HP/WEIGHT BALLPARK A RACER WILL ALMOST ALWAYS ASK FOR BETTER HANDLING BEFORE POWER Oh and... I've passed a 999 and a 1098S on a canyon road on my 12R... I passed a CBR1000RR on a racetrack (took me four laps to make it stick) What does that mean? Jack shtuff. | ||
| M2nc |
Sounds like MCN either has a happy dyno, Ducatti sent them a cherry picked bike, or the people that are buying the 1098S are paying an awful lot of money for 6 hp. I say it was cherry picked. I am not throwing stones as in my original statement I blamed Buell for the same thing when the 12R came out. Like I said, If Ducati has the courage to pin a bone stock $14,995 1098 vs. a bone stock $11,995 1125R, the contest will be very close. Look at the facts Rocket. The 1125R is about the same weight, size and peak rwhp as the GSX-R750. In 2006 that bike won the Master Bike competition including the Ducati. In 2007 it was a different story but Ducati brought a $23K 1098S with all the power and suspension upgrades available. In 20007, the GSX-R750 average lap time was 1:54.406. The 150rwhp 1098S managed a meager 0.156 second advantage over the 127rwhp Zook. The 1125R may have the same peak rwhp as Zook, but with a much flatter torque curve. The 1125R will pull where the zook will not. The 1125R also has a flatter torque curve than the 1098. Without a heads up test its hard to say, but there is a dip in the Ducati's torque curve that will put it behind the 1125R from 3K-7K rpm. I think you know this because you state a go-cart track which will benefit the bike with lower-end power. Take away the suspension and power add ons of the "S" model and I have no doubt with the numbers available today the 1125R can play with the 1098. I am not saying one will beat the other, just that the two are in the same league and too close to make wild claims before tests truly show if there is a clear winner. To disagree with the available facts is just a confession of your own bias. (Message edited by M2nc on January 28, 2008) | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Maneater, not complicating any issue. You expect me to take some bias magazine as once and for all proof that a 1125 can't compete with a 1098? Are you daft? Tested, most likely, at the same track, on different days, with different weather conditions? No. I mean head to head competition, same day, same track, same time. Stock bikes. Since this will most likely never happen, I have a plan. Buell has their Homecoming this year. They have set up a Track Day here on July 4th. What a great day! We will procure a 1098 STOCK and a 1125R STOCK. For once, put your money where your mouth is. Fly here. You can even stay at my house. YOU AND I will have the epic battle. English versus American. Independence Day no less. It couldn't be a more fair comparison. Kind of takes all the questions out of the equation being we will be the ones testing the bikes. Same track, same day, same weather conditions.... Ya up for it? It's 6 months away. I'm sure we can set something up. | ||
| Rocketman |
You're looking at some graphs from one bloke operating a dyno in Australia, and that tells you the 1098 is flat in the mid range? All we know about the bike is it belongs to a customer that's put 1000km on it. It's not even run in! And like Australia in the peak of summer is a great place to get a dyno figure? We know nothing about the atmospheric conditions, but we do know this We didn’t get a decent before air/fuel trace (often hard with std mufflers) so the next run is after power and air/fuel graph. While there’s a bit of variation in the mixture I wouldn’t expect there to be more power anywhere with a flat 12.7 or so. So we can't say with any certainty the bike was set up well to start with. Then we are told If we compare the after runs for this bike and that from the previous report (and keep in min the baseline power difference) it would appear the slip ons have a lower RPM power advantage, and maybe not much of a higher RPM disadvantage. I would like to dyno a carbon Termi slip on kit as they are open mufflers unlike the Ti mufflers with the cat at the front, but haven’t got to one as yet. And we all know Ducati (like everyone else) has to comply with Euro laws and legislation, except in Ducatis case the magic is there for the Termi and not the stock factory pipe which every Ducati sportsbike owner in the world throws in the bin - as Ducati intended. Anyway, go and ride one like I did. They go like shit off a shovel, and I mean shit off a shovel. Top gear roll on 40 - 120MPH 13 secs, as tested by MCN. The graph MCN published shows a slight dip at 5000rpm around 57rwhp, but it's not a hole, it is a blip that I doubt anyone would notice when riding. So we have a lighter, more slippery, race focused, more powerful bike, and the school of thought is the 1125 is going to hand this purpose built superbike its arse in a hat? Dream on. Go find a canyon road on a sunny Sunday with grandpa riding his 1098 with his toes pointing outwards, and have at him on your 1125 superbike killer. I'm sure it will make you feel great. Me? I prefer to live in the real world. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Which car won the championship and why? If they ever raced F1 were the cars had the same weight of fuel in an adequate amount to finish the race from start to finish, without stopping for a tea break and visor wash several times in the hour, we might see how the cars and their respective performance really work. But in F1 it's entirely possible the best handling most powerful car won't win because of the race taking place outside of the car, as is often the case. That's why F1 lost my interest years ago. And I was a life long fan. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Sprinkster, I'm fully booked this year, but I could give Max a call. Seeing as he's privateering a 1098 this season, maybe he'd be upto it. That said, you'd have an advantage coz I'm faster than Max  Rocket | ||
| Elvis |
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| Elvis |
. . . and since our Dyno information on the 1125R is still very limited, let's not forget this one:  http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/290 431/323228.html?1197334494 Why would an MCN value that is higher than real world values be the most reliable? Isn't it possible (or even likely) that Ducati provided MCN with a "special" bike? Isn't it possible (or even likely) that MCN realizes that more of their subscribers and sponsers will be more angry and more likely complain about pessimistic rather than optimistic values on "their" bike? I think the real world data is showing that the 1125R and 1098 are likely very similar in terms of power and only a very selective choosing of the data would indicate otherwise. | ||
| Ccryder |
Elvis: Very interesting. Neil S. | ||
| Rocketman |
MCN don't cherry pick their bikes as far as I'm aware. I don't believe their reputation is built on advertising copy, but what do I know. I'm just a constr...... sorry, Saab mechanic. Often though, but not always, they will choose their test bike at random from a dealers demo fleet, and they will report so. Sometimes they even test willing owners bikes. Frankly if we are to believe a 1098 is close to an 1125 in power output, Ducati might as well call it a day with their desmo 1100cc 4 valve motor. All hail the Helicon! Rocket | ||
| Spike |
Actually, nearly every 1098 dyno available shows a nice flat spot through the midrange. I have at my desk the May '07 issue of Motorcyclist which has a comparison of the 999S and the 1098S. The 999S dyno chart starts off showing ~55ft-lbs at ~3k rpm and builds steadily from there all the way to 73ft-lbs at 8k rpm. The 1098S starts off stronger making ~60ft-lbs at ~3k rpm, builds until ~4500 rpm, then falls off to below ~60ft-lbs by 5k rpm. From ~5k to ~6300 rpm the 1098S is making no more torque than the 999S. Then the 1098S jumps up in power rapidly, gaining ~20ft-lbs between 6k and 8k rpm. |
