| Author | Message | ||
     Dalton_gang |
Chad, I`m more of the completely insane idiot type, but not as you described. I want 3rd gear wheelies, 9 sec 1/4 mile times, etc... I`m a power junkie more than a speed freak. I do agree with you on one point though and that is I will be spending very little time running it above the 100 hp range. But when the means become available (parts) I`m sure that I will be looking for a few extra ponies. For me I`m guessing an extra 10 to 15 But thats just me and just a guess. | ||
| Baggermike |
I must admit I to would like a bike that would do the 1/4 under ten seconds to. Squids, I assume you are talking about the way I write, well if so, I am lucky to be able to ride never mind write correctly, to many head injuries will do that to you, and most guys would not ride after what I have been thru | ||
| Rocketman |
Here we go again. Read the f*cking posts again you ignorant blind insulting people. Blake was comparing the Ducati. NOT I! He was trying to defend his silly comment "Add some expert headwork and cams, bump the compression... maybe get up to 180 RWHP (for the 1125. Hello?) Previous to that, and no mention of a Ducati by me, I offered a more realistic comparison "What will be an interesting power comparison is that of the RC8 v 1125. Both engines and induction systems are of similar design. The major difference being only the cooling system lay-out, that may or may not have any significant effect on power output." Blake went on to say, in response to my comment, "the laws of diminishing returns will never see an 1125 putting out 180 rwhp. That's just not possible without building a high capacity drag race grenade." AND I QUOTE.......... That is false. It's interesting how Ducati got 200+RWHP out of their 999R-based WSBK machines. For a meager $30,000 the 999R could be purchased and put in the garage. But don't put one on a dyno, according to Ducati thenselves, the 999R put down 133 RWHP. There are some here who seriously need to buck up on their reading comprehension skills before pointing their fingers at me. Continue at this pace and you can start paying me for English language tutorials. Idiots  Rocket | ||
| Sheridan_bueller |
Who opened the troll petting zoo? | ||
| Baggermike |
Believe in nothing you hear and half of what you see. Mike | ||
| Rocketman |
Baggermike | ||
| M1combat |
Wait a minute... You post a diatribe of what Ducati have done to tack an "R" on a bike and then claim that PROVES that there's no way a Helicon can make 180HP? You think that the Helicon is just not as good as the 1098 engine? Do you have any proof? I don't get it Rocket... You say "This is where the 1098 gets to. Therefor the 1125 can not achieve the same thing." Can you PLEASE tell us what sort of proof you have? You're really showing your ass here Sean. I mean... there's a leap in your logic. Here... take this for example... "which has a higher ratio so as to be able fully exploit the speed gained from the supplied race kit (for track use only) or additional performance modifications." Well if Ducati are making "X" HP from their race kit and that alone makes you assume that the Helicon can not attain that then why has Ducati implied that MAYBE the 1098 can go even further than their race kit? I think it probably can... Based on THAT do you think the Helicon might be able to make the same numbers as the race kitted 1098R? I mean as long as the 1098R can actually make numbers greater than even that? Maybe you're just saying that because Ducati leads with this... "The 1098 R is the ultimate Superbike." I suppose... If Ducati says it... we should all just believe the rocket man. I mean... he has one and all (an old washed up has been 916 anyhow)... he should probably know. Oh wait... maybe you're thinking that a 1098R with race kit as supplied by Ducati CAN'T make any more power than it does as supplied? Like... everything is already perfect or something. Maybe they DO have the factory race team engine builder building EVERY single one of them EXACTLY like he would if he were building it for his race team? Anyway... I just don't see your logic here Sean. It seems that you've said "The ducati makes this much so the Helicon can't do it." Oh and... I don't care who brought the 1098 into the discussion. It doesn't matter. What matters to me is how you seem to have made that leap in logic. If you haven't and I'm just not reading your kings english correctly please let me know. But keep in mind that if that's the case you are admitting that maybe the Helicon maybe just might be able to get to those power levels given enough love and attention. So which is it? | ||
| Not_purple_s2 |
Well the proof is in the pudding, not the guys arguing over what's in the pudding and how fresh the milk is. I'm just going to sit back and wait for people with the time and money to spend start modifying their 1125R's. It's going to be lots of fun seeing what guys do with this new engine. Especially if it attracts more diverse builders. I expect to see a lot of monkeying with the exhaust and cams, ported and polished the heads, soon followed by bored out 1200cc motors, then surely someone will strap on a turbo. I'm betting that before long 150rwhp 1125R's will be as common as 100rwhp 1203's. Eventually someone will make a boosted beast that'll break the 200hp barrier. Wait hasn't Firemanjim already broken that barrier with the archaic Harley design? (Message edited by not_purple_s2 on January 17, 2008) | ||
| Rocketman |
Blake said 180 RWHP Ducati claim 186 crankshaft for their latest 1199cc 1098R. The relevance to posting the Ducati info was to give those interested an insight into what Ducati have done to get 186hp out of their 1098R engine. You're the one showing their arse if you believe for a moment an 1125 is gonna make 180rwhp with tuning. Rocket | ||
| Socoken |
Rocket's been pretty cool through most of this thread. Some of you guys are downright overly defensive. Id hate to see his level contributions of late end because some still read with too much emotion. HTFU | ||
| M1combat |
Oh... I didn't realize we were just talking "tuning"... Were we? I thought we were talking about "building"... My bad I suppose. | ||
| M1combat |
"To help contain the massive 'R' power output, the crankcases and cylinder heads have been sand-cast produced, a process that improves the molecular quality of the casting, increasing strength while ensuring that intricate shapes are achieved with absolute accuracy. " Does Ducati sand cast the cases of the non "R" bikes? Seems like more than tuning to me but what do I know? | ||
| Rocketman |
Oh... I didn't realize we were just talking "tuning"... Blake was...............and I quote "Add some expert headwork and cams, bump the compression... maybe get up to 180 RWHP." But even if we were talking similar lines to Ducatis 1098R build specification, they're yielding a claimed 186 crank HP with race kit, for a 1199cc displacement. Such high end tuning the 1125 could not afford to give away 75cc's. Is it do-able? Would anyone want to? Unless Erik decides to go racing. Now he did say something about not caring about going over 1000cc and excluding Buell from SB racing in doing so. But more interestingly, he went on to say the rule change was a gift or something? I forget his exact words, but it sounded like he was saying Buell were up for it. But hey what do I know. I'm just a Saab mechanic. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
Does Ducati sand cast the cases of the non "R" bikes? Seems like more than tuning to me but what do I know? No they don't. Only the R bikes and the Desmosedici RR, and the Factory race stuff. But how is this more than just tuning? Oh I get it. You want to argue it both ways. But only when it suits of course. Rocket | ||
| Bearly |
go away | ||
| M1combat |
"Oh I get it. You want to argue it both ways. But only when it suits of course. " Yes... But not only when it suits. If the Italians can recast their cases and use upgraded parts (and bump the displacement) then why can't the Americans? I guess what I'm getting at is... Can the Helicon be made competitive within the rules of WSBK? I don't really care about cost as long as it's in the ballpark. I mean really... When you get to a million of most common currency it's academic. What's the engine capable of? Is it capable of being competitive in WSBK? If not... why not? So Ducati sand casts their high end cases. Are we to assume that they also leave them exactly the same shape inside and out? I kinda doubt it but maybe they do. In any case I think in this here bench racing session we ought to be able to do the same to the Helicon. Getting caught by one back marker ruins the advantage of five HP over a race distance at that level. The exact number doesn't matter when you get in the ballpark. More is better for sure but not at the cost of other factors that are certainly more important. I'm for competition. I like Ducati. I've been watching Stoner since he was running 250's. I'm very glad they won. I'm not interested in arguing for one side or the other at all. I'm just interested in keeping my eyes open and not shutting the door on a small American company just because they aren't a "small" Italian company. Really. If Ducati does whatever mods they do to make their numbers in a SBK spec bike then we need to afford Buell the same thing to be fair. Maybe even more  . By that I only mean that BOTH manufacturers should do everything within the rules to get as much as they can. IF Ducati aren't doing everything they can then Buell should do more... Why you ask? Because the benchmark isn't Ducati. It's the rulebook. We are talking about a Rotax here. They seem to know a thing or two about making an engine. I think a SBK spec 1125R could make the upper echelons of a SBK grid. Of course we won't know until someone takes a stab at it though... Some will be surprised... Some won't. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Let us all remember this....... The Aprilia RSV with the Rotax 1000cc engine, raced for 2-3 seasons in the WSBK against Ducati. It was pretty succesful too, with Troy Corser winning some races and scoring Superpoles. It was bad financial times for Aprilia, and I am sure if they had more money they would have done much better. So, if Aprilia did it with a Rotax engine in WSBK level, why cannot Buell do it in AMA, WSBK, SUPERSTOCK ???????? Also Honda's V-2 1000cc SP, was competitive against Ducati....... Unless of course, some of us think that Ducati's engineer's are Gods, and they are the only ones on this Universe that can built high performance V-2 engines. The 1125R can make as much power as any other V-2 for the same displacement(cc) ....... | ||
| Rocketman |
M1, before you manage to form a lynch mob, I have no problem with anything you suggest for a WSB Helicon. Nor have I ever said otherwise. What I did say to Blake, in response to his tuning a Helicon to 180rwhp was, it would need to be built like a "drag race grenade". I'm not the one arguing the Helicon isn't capable. I merely pointed out when Blake and Ducx1 offered Ducatis performance as a benchmark, what Ducati and the Airwaves BSB team go through to get the sort of figures mentioned in this thread. If Buell are willing to throw out that kind of dough to a SB Helicon motor, then that would be f*cking awesome. So dude, read again, because you're barking up the wrong tree and far to quick to point your finger. Thanks  Rocket | ||
| V74 |
project 1125rr,with 1199 cc and everything the rule book allows would make about 200 hp at the crank,just over 170 rwhp,at world level,sorry but thats not enough nor at national level,on the corners maybe but on the straights it will be left behind,check out the ZX10R track test in this weeks mcn,measured power 170.53 rwhp,thats a standard street bike before even home tuning. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Ducati and KTM thinks otherwise...... A 1200cc V-2 will race against 1000cc IL4s in WSBK. With Bayliss and Biaggi riding the 1200cc Ducatis, there is a good chance for the title.... | ||
| Ducxl |
If the Italians can recast their cases and use upgraded parts (and bump the displacement) then why can't the Americans? You mean,why won't they? If only BMC had more money,maybe they could compete at world level racing like Aprilia/KTM wish they could. At least Ducati DOES offer a HIGH end machine for those that wish for more than "cost effective/cheap". Just an attempt at rebuttal. What makes Sand cast more desirable? | ||
| Motohead1125r |
Under the current WBK rules, Ducati‘s main advantage is it’s Desmo valve train. Their motors have a better brake specific fuel consumption numbers than anyone else. They stay at full power for most, if not all of the race. That will be hard to beat with any motor with valve springs. | ||
| Court |
Buell must make a profit. Racing does little to advance that goal. | ||
| Rfischer |
"Racing does little to advance that goal." Hmmmmn....Honda/Yamaha/Toyota/Ford/et al. would seem to disagree. Indeed, so does Buell, albeit on a restricted basis. Ducati spends millions racing and sells its bikes based on that as its primary marketing strategy. However being classically Italian, there is a disconnect between what they spend and what they can sell; ie. they don't make money. However, that doesn't mean other, more prudent, mfr's don't make a positive return on their racing investment. I think H-D for example has it pretty much nailed. My 2 kopeks' worth. | ||
| Socoken |
Why would racing do little to help Buell make a profit? Erik himself said his target audience is those passionate about riding sportbikes. Racing most definitely attracts passionate riders, so why wouldnt he be able to "win on sunday and sell on monday" (aside from many dealers not being open on monday)? Isnt any publicity good publicity? Especially if a team is competitive? | ||
| Rocketman |
Even if Buell could win in SB racing often enough to garner sales in the high street, they still haven't brought a bike to market that will sell to those who like everything about what is essentially a Japanese manufactured sports bike. In other words, no amount of race wins would see Buell able to compete in the high street with any current model Buell against the might of the Japanese. Rocket | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"In other words, no amount of race wins would see Buell able to compete in the high street with any current model Buell against the might of the Japanese. " Are you serious ??? If Ducati can do it with a V-2, any other V-2 can do it, including Buell. Aprilia did it in WSBK level. Buell might not have desmo, but has a F1 derived, valve actuation system, that only BMW Motorrad uses.. Also Buell has better centre of gravity and weight distribution than Ducati and any other sportbike, thanks to the chassis and radiators design. Isn't it enough ?? | ||
| Socoken |
I agree with that, but my point wasnt that they would sell more than the big four, but rather sell enough to make it worthwhile. Plus, it would make it a lot more fun for me to watch if they were in WSB. | ||
| Rocketman |
Are you serious ??? Name one Buell, past or present, that will sell in tens of thousands? Buell make bikes for a niche market. Until they build a bike that is styled for the masses, they can't compete with the Japanese big four sales levels generated from the likes of a Suzuki Bandit or Honda CBR600 etc etc etc. It has nothing to do with V2 configuration. Rocket | ||
| Rocketsprink |
How many of you actually work for a Motorcycle company in R&D, design, engineering, etc, etc? Just a honest question. Some here seem to think they know more than others, but what do you back that knowledge up with? It's ok to argue a point, but can you prove the point? Not trying to point a finger at one certain individual. Me? I do what I can , then involve other's that are more knowledgeable then myself. |
