| Author | Message | ||
     Spatten1 |
Torque: Plenty Horsepower: More than enough For crying out loud, most of you guys were riding XBs recently. | ||
| Blake |
"the laws of diminishing returns will never see an 1125 putting out 180 rwhp. That's just not possible without building a high capacity drag race grenade." That is false. It's interesting how Ducati got 200+RWHP out of their 999R-based WSBK machines. For a meager $30,000 the 999R could be purchased and put in the garage. But don't put one on a dyno, according to Ducati thenselves, the 999R put down 133 RWHP. I forgot to include an increased rev-limit for the 180 HP version. Increasing the piston speed to 5,300 FPM would yield a new Buell 1125RR rev limit of 12,000 RPM. I think Ducati runs their 999R-F06 to well above that. If Ducati can tune a 999R to make 200+ RWHP and survive an entire WSBK Racing event (practices, qualifying, superpol, two races), then it is reasonable that the 1125cc Buell/Rotax Helicon engine with it's Formula one valve-train and dry sump can be worked to produce comparable performance. Yet, peak HP is but one aspect of engine performance. Analyzing the breadth of the powerband gives an idea of what kind of race type performance might lie waiting, as yet untapped in the Buell 1125R's Helicon optimally street-tuned EPA/Euro compliant engine. From Ed's first Dyno chart above: Torque exceeds 70 FT*LBs (94% of peak torque) from 6,200 to 9,750 RPM, a spread of 3,550 RPM of pure red meat powerband, no less than 34% of the entire rev range of the engine! Most folks would agree that anything better than 90% of peak torque is in the real serious meat of an engine's powerband. The Buell 1125R's Helicon engine provides 90% or better of peak torque from 4,900 to 10,100 RPM, a spread of 5,200 RPM, representing just shy of 50% of the entire 10,500 RPM rev range of the engine. That is world class performance for a 146 HP street bike engine. From 3,900 RPM to the rev-limit, the Helicon is making over 80% of peak torque. That again is nothing short of world class street bike performance. Fun stuff. (Message edited by blake on January 16, 2008) | ||
| Baggermike |
Very nice Blake, I had that in my head but could never explain it to anyone like you have. I could only say the bike is very ridable while being fast and quick. Mike | ||
| 1badbuell |
"For crying out loud, most of you guys were riding XBs recently." Ain't that the truth but its the American way...get what you ask for...then complain its not enough. IMO the 1125r is plenty fast and has the feature set I longed for on my XB. I didn't buy it to be the fastest guy on the street...I bought it for the fun factor & to be different than every squid on the road. Otherwise I would have kept my Busa. | ||
| Josh_ |
>For crying out loud, most of you guys were riding XBs recently I was riding a 146HP-90ft/lbs FJR1300. I for one wish the 1125 had more power. | ||
| Blake |
Josh, That can be easily arranged. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) | ||
| Rocketman |
It's interesting how Ducati got 200+RWHP out of their 999R-based WSBK machines. Airwaves Ducati, the only team who ran Ducatis in 2007 BSB, had 12 F0-7 999R engines, at a cost of £40,000 each. To make their estimated 185 - 190 HP, they needed rebuilding every 750km. The second rebuild at 1500km included crankcase replacement. Each engine could only be rebuilt 3 times before being scrapped completely. Each rebuild took 2 1/2 days from start to finish. Airwaves engine bill, including maintenance for the full season cost £1,000,000 Yep, I can see the 1125 making 180rwhp anytime real soon Blake. I'd wager there's more chance of the ensuing argument over such having my account suspended (again) (and again) (and again), lol. Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
So you don't think that spending a million pounds on an 1125R engine would produce 185-190 HP for a race season? To be honest I'd give the 1125R 1.1 million as it's a brand new design and there would have to be more costs associated with getting it there in the first place. Even giving it the extra money I would still call that a fair comparison. Can you provide us with a few facts (like maybe someone having tried it or something like that...) regarding the lack of possible performance in the Helicon? Do you have pictures of someone's FIRST try to at least substantiate your claim that it actually goes boom at those power levels? Do you know someone that has tried and DIDN'T take pictures? Maybe you know someone that actually took one apart and decided it couldn't be done? Maybe you took one look at one (ok... maybe two) from the OUTSIDE and decided there was no way it LOOKED like it could be done? Do you have any pictures at all (or have you even heard of) a helicon engine going boom at ANY power level? I'm just trying to find out where you're coming from is all... (maybe it's a troll cave???) Thank you. Hey Josh... How much does that FJR weigh anyhow? | ||
| Socoken |
I think Sean's point was that it would take a high buck, short lived full out race engine to make 180rwhp. He was comparing it to a yamaha that was a streetable version of a race bike that made a boat load of hp, and his point was an 1125, or twin for that matter, couldnt do that. (make that hp and be streetable) Sorry if Im wrong. | ||
| Rocketman |
So you don't think that spending a million pounds on an 1125R engine would produce 185-190 HP for a race season? Where did I ever imply that was not possible. In fact, I believe my point was, that's exactly the way one would have to go. Like Airwaves Ducati did. Comprende?? I'm beginning to believe there are some here who have trouble reading the Kings English  What I did say was this.... "the laws of diminishing returns will never see an 1125 putting out 180 rwhp. That's just not possible without building a high capacity drag race grenade." To which Blake replied....... That is false. Blake then offered up some exaggerated HP figures for a WSB 999R, which would be an F-O7 999R then. Taking the same bike as used by Airwaves in the 2007 BSB series, which incidentally is an improved F-06, as there never really were any F-07's as such, I believe my comparison would show an 1125 making 180rwhp would indeed be the type of engine one might call a 'high capacity drag race grenade'. I believe that is exactly what I called it. You know, I don't just make this shit up  Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
"I'm beginning to believe there are some here who have trouble reading the Kings English " Maybe that's 'cause I don't have a king? I see your point though... Yeah... I wouldn't expect to get 200HP out of a reliable (street reliable... like 75-100K miles) Helicon. I do think that the Helicon might make a competitive BSB engine with that sort of money thrown into it with the right people working on it though. Why make an engine like that with which it couldn't be done? By that I mean... "Hey, we engineered a weak spot in the cases so it "can't" be done." Doesn't seem like the way Buell operates. I'm not so sure it would be a "drag race" grenade either. I would hope it would be a "road race" grenade with just the right fuse. | ||
| Baggermike |
Hey guys I research buying this bike and remember reading that the left room for more hp so if you want a bike with more hp you are going to give up the flat tq band that buell wanted, he wanted a bike that had the power of the xb12 but would keep going while the xb12 ran out of breath, so the motor can handle more power I read that on the buell site or pamplets but he wanted a bike that was fun to ride not a bike that you had to run into a certon rpms to get it perform it performs at all rpms, if the come out with a more hp kit and increases tq and hp over the whole rev range then I am for it but if it just makes more top end power at the expence of its low end power then I will pass. Mike | ||
| Rocketman |
I used the 'drag race' analogy to show mileage limitations, was all. We don't have a King either, though I have offered, lol. Rocket | ||
| Spatten1 |
Mike, you bought the bike for the right reasons. | ||
| Baggermike |
yes Spatten1 it took me months of research and deciding on buying the 1125R, or a new ulysses that I would be forever putting money into to get the performance the 1125R has, and I was not sure but now I know I made the right choice. Mike | ||
| Blake |
I guess 12.5% more displacement isn't worth anything in a liquid-cooled, OHV, motorcycle engine. 160 HP * 1.125 = 180 HP  180 HP * 1.125 = 203 HP To me a "drag race grenade" is an engine that can't make 1/4 mile without blowing up. When the WSBK 999R-F06/F07 factory bikes are seen blowing through 200 mph on a road circuit, it seems pretty evident that though down a bit on power compared to the IL4 machines, they are still making close to or over 200 HP. No? You think the BSB machines are equal to those of the Ducati Factory WSBK teams? 180 RWHP out of a worked over 1125R is absolutely do-able. The Helicon engine is very much understressed in its current street form. (Message edited by Blake on January 17, 2008) | ||
| Rocketman |
I guess 12.5% more displacement isn't worth anything in a liquid-cooled, OHV, motorcycle engine. Oh I'm sure it is, but like I said to start with, it gets to a point where the laws of diminishing returns come into play. Is your 12.5% increased capacity capable of yielding 50 more horses at the rear wheel? Off the top of my head that's a HP gain of close to 40%. To me a "drag race grenade" is an engine that can't make 1/4 mile without blowing up. You're just splitting hairs for argument sake. The whole world knows the analogy to mean an engine that won't live too long. What would be the point in building a motor that wouldn't get a drag racer down the quarter anyway? Isn't that a bit silly? When the WSBK 999R-F06/F07 factory bikes are seen blowing through 200 mph on a road circuit, it seems pretty evident that though down a bit on power compared to the IL4 machines, they are still making close to or over 200 HP. No? I don't recall one ever blowing past 200mph, and I don't believe they were making over 200 HP. Not at the crank either. The figure I quoted, 185-190bhp, is Ducati Corse's estimated figure for their F-07 WSB engine. You think the BSB machines are equal to those of the Ducati Factory WSBK teams? Yes I do. There is plenty of evidence to support such too. Have you not noticed how competitive our 'wild card' entries are at WSB rounds? Our domestic boys often beat the WSB boys season in season out, and that has little to do with track knowledge as most if not all have ridden the tracks previously, and often. 180 RWHP out of a worked over 1125R is absolutely do-able. The Helicon engine is very much understressed in its current street form. Oh I'm sure it is. Just not reliably so beyond building one form or another of a grenade. The same would apply to a 999 too, and very likey a 1098. Rocket | ||
| Neurorider |
Blake! I love your logic, your optimism, your info. I think your point is accurate also in that the Helicon is a new motor; with such may come new potential. You are, however, not likely to convince Rocket of *anything* it seems. Every board has one, right? I'm looking forward to what folks do hotrodding the new motor; I'm sure it will be fun and fast. doc | ||
| 86129squids |
Here's my $.02: At the dealer show last July, when the bike was unveiled, I spent a good amount of time chatting up the various engineers/techs that were there to do tech seminars, etc. I asked one of the guys what they had achieved developmentally in "mutating" the motor toward race specs, and they wouldn't allow any details. The best answer I got was that it is VERY understressed in stock form, capable of much more than street spec. Let's see what various racing "Dr. Frankensteins" can do with Buell's new baby- methinks it'll give the other Superbikes a lot to worry about. The quality of power available combined with Buell handling will be hard to beat. All this spec sheet racing (AKA pissing contests) is fun to watch- all youse guys, partisan as you may be, are well-spoken pissers. It taked a bladder to piss, but BALLS to ride. Plan to RIDE the 1125R, Rocket, as I have, and then contemplate the sheer volume of urine you've expended in vain. | ||
| Rocketman |
From Ducatis website..... The 1098 R is the ultimate Superbike. The most advanced, most powerful twin-cylinder motorcycle ever built. It is the product of a team of designers and engineers focussed on one objective only - to win. The 'R' is a race bike, pure and simple. Its competition specification and superior components together with advanced electronics and race-proven chassis technology deliver a level of performance that empowers you with confidence and capability. On the road, it distinguishes you as a connoisseur of high-performance motorcycles. On the track it promotes you to a higher level of riding and closer to realising your dreams. World Superbike rule changes mean that the road-going 'R' version is closer than ever to our factory race bike. The 1098 R is not a replica - it's the real deal. An incredible 180hp L-Twin Testastretta Evoluzione engine in a race-winning Trellis chassis set-up tips the scales at an unbelievably lightweight 165kg (364lbs) and comes with a race kit that introduces Ducati Corse's world championship winning traction control system. .............. 1098 R TESTASTRETTA EVOLUZIONE POWER The 1098 R engine represents the finest twin-cylinder technology in the world. It produces 180hp (132.4kW) at 9,750rpm and 99.1 lb-ft (13.7kgm) of brute torque at 7,750rpm in standard mode and an astonishing 186hp when using the supplied race kit (intended strictly for track use only). The specification of this engine underlines its no-compromise race technology. To help contain the massive 'R' power output, the crankcases and cylinder heads have been sand-cast produced, a process that improves the molecular quality of the casting, increasing strength while ensuring that intricate shapes are achieved with absolute accuracy. Confirming the 1098 R's race specification by minimising weight and increasing performance, the crankshaft connecting rods are made in titanium saving 130g over the stock 1098 rods while reducing their reciprocating forces and improving crankshaft acceleration. Cam belt covers moulded in carbon fibre and cam covers cast in magnesium alloy complete the lightweight package. The result is a weight saving of 5.6kg (12.34lbs) over the 999R engine and 2.2kg (4.8lbs) less than the 1098. The increased capacity of 1198.4cc is the product of a larger bore and stroke of 106 x 67.9mm and is fed through four titanium valves per cylinder and compressed to a ratio of 12.8:1. The valves, which are chrome nitride coated, have been increased in diameter by approximately 5% to 44.3mm for the inlet and 36.2mm for the exhaust. They are actuated by rocker arms that are super-finished for reduced friction and fatigue, and double overhead camshafts with radical profiles that achieve approximately 16% more lift than the standard 1098. These incredible valve performances are only possible because of Ducati's unique Desmodromic system, where valve closure is activated mechanically. At high rpm it would be almost impossible for the valve to follow the steep closure profile of the cam lobe if it were relying upon a normal valve spring, but with the Desmo system the valve is mechanically closed with the same accuracy as it is opened, enabling steep cam profiles and radical cam timings. This system is used on every single Ducati motorcycle including our world-beating Desmosedici MotoGP bike. The pistons utilise the same design developed for the Desmosedici in the Ducati MotoGP program by using a distinctive double-ribbed undercrown to achieve high strength with minimal piston wall surface area and, therefore, less friction. In this way, the 106mm RR58 alloy components are able to operate reliably at high rpm while delivering incredible performance. The 1098 R elliptical throttle bodies have been increased 6.5% in size compared to the 1098, a diameter now equal to 63.9mm. For the first time on a road-going Ducati, twin injectors are used on each cylinder. The first centrally mounted injector feeds through a 4-hole nozzle while the second offset injector feeds through a 12-hole nozzle ensuring progressive and fluid power delivery throughout the rev-range. With this configuration the system has the capacity to provide much heavier fueling when used in competition. The gearbox shares the same ratios as the 1098 and 1098 S, except for 3rd, 4th and 6th gear, which has a higher ratio so as to be able fully exploit the speed gained from the supplied race kit (for track use only) or additional performance modifications. Also with performance in mind and because of its high resistance to fatigue, the gears are machined from the same high-strength steel used in Ducati Corse race applications with 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th gears being subjected to a shot-peening treatment that further ensures their strength and reduced fatigue. The dry, multiplate 'slipper' clutch reduces the destabilising effect of aggressive downshifting and helps provide the fine control required when used under extreme track conditions. The 1098 R uses a 2-1-2 exhaust system in 52mm-57mm diameter tubing with a wall thickness of 0.8mm (.030in) and terminates with Ducati's trademark twin under-seat mufflers beautifully formed in super lightweight titanium and stainless steel. ................... The 1198cc 1098R with race kit, Ducati claim 186HP . I don't see how Ducati could have been, and I quote, "making close to or over 200 HP" from their 999R. Not to take anything away from the 1125 success story so far, I think this proves an 1125 is not going to yield 180HP at the crankshaft, let alone the rear wheel. Rocket (Message edited by rocketman on January 17, 2008) | ||
| Baggermike |
Rocket, how can you compare a full-blown racing platform bike that cost 39,995.00 against a bike built for the real world of street riding at 11,995.00, I wonder if you can afford that bike, I know I cant and had to scrape up every dime I could find just to buy my bike, and now am so broke after registering and insurance it I can not afford to put gas in my bike, good thing there is snow and ice on the road, so I do not feel bad. I also wonder what you would you pay for insurance on a bike like that, that is if they would insure you. And most important of all it is a Buell an American sport bike. Mike | ||
| Rfischer |
PULEEZZE don't feed the troll anymore people..! | ||
| Barker |
After riding it on some of my favorite roads, I have determined it has more power than I will ever use, on the street. | ||
| Sheridan_bueller |
+1 Barker. I just rode to work, had a truck in front of me and felt like goofing off a little. 3rd gear and a heavy roll on produced a nice power wheelie as I went by the truck like it was in reverse. I wasn't even close to redline! JJ (is loving my new bike!!!!!!) | ||
| Dalton_gang |
Hey Spatten & Barker, Give it a couple months then you`ll be looking for a few more ponies. Horse power IS addictive! You`ll be coming back for more. At least I will. | ||
| Chadhargis |
I'm as big a speed addict as anyone which is why I do a lot of track days. On the street, you'd be hard pressed to use the power an SV650 puts out, much less anything near what the 1125 puts out. While, yes, it is possible to do so, just remember.....there are old riders, and there are bold riders. There are very few old bold riders. If you think you need 180hp, one of two things is going on. 1) You are at such a high riding level that Hayden, Rossi, Stoner and the like need to watch out if you decide to start racing. 2) You are a completely insane idiot who gets off on doing top speed runs on public streets and seeing how fast you can pass little old ladies on your back wheel while flicking the bird at them. Even on the track, turning pretty respectable lap times, I find it difficult to use even the 100hp my Gixxer 600 puts down. It could use more torque, but the power is more than enough to scare the crap out of me if I grab a hand full. Now, are there times when more power is nice? Sure. I've been on a twisty road caught behind a slow moving car with little opportunities to pass and I've wished for more power so I could squirt around someone really quickly. Even on the track there are times when I get behind a "parker"....you know...someone who goes balls out on a literbike in the straights then "parks" in the turns and it's hard to get around them because they whack it wide open as soon as they get through the turn. Would I LOVE to have an 1125 engine in my Ulysses....HELL YES! It's better to have and not need, than need and not have.  But come on guys....130hp or 180hp...it's all DAMN FAST. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Not me, I left my ZX9R and ZX11 stock, they both went fast enough for me. | ||
| Baggermike |
Rficher, I just could not help myself, he is getting very irritating with BS, must be a jealouse thing or something, I do not know why he is even on here if he does not own one, if the bike was made to race and Buell put that money into the bike how many of us could afford one, I do not think that Duke would make a really good street bike. Buells goal was to make a really good street bike, and he pulled it off, and if I was to want more power it would be in cubic inches and or higher rpms, there is no way I would give up the tq curve this bike has, I have ridden and own many bikes and this is the best street bike I have ever owned or ridden, I plan on doing track days and will see how I do on the bike on a track, I have never did this and will have to go to school first, so I know got to save my pennies for a leather suite and school, I will also try drag racing the bike to, both tracks New England Drag way, and Louden race way, are close to me, so it should be a good summer if a S U V does not mess up my plans. Mike | ||
| 86129squids |
Hey Mike- Head to your local (used if available) bookstore and find the Little, Brown Handbook. Or at least use a "." a little more than a ",". Just kindly asking, bud. Thanx. | ||
| 86129squids |
Well put Chad. You coming to Suches? |
