| Author | Message | ||
     Lucas70374 |
Well im almost right Blake, I tend to get confused between the Rocker and the 1125r. So the date moved from to beginning of November instead of mid/late October | ||
| Ratbuell |
Jammin Joules - thanks for reminding me about switchgear, tire pressure, coolant, lights, etc. Brain fart  | ||
| Gsxr_is_gone |
Well, the main problem here is the INTERNET without it no one would know anything, and we would just be waiting for the Buell dealer to call us. | ||
| Blake |
"beginning of November" The factory's "job one" production start date moved from 10/15 to the beginning of November. | ||
| Lucas70374 |
Blake first off if they going to make dates then try to stick to them. Ok I just found out. My ship date was 12/6 when I look in the system the bike was not even built yet. Its a week later and still nothing. This is just getting old. I dont know what you do but if you are/was a dealer you should understand that telling customers everyday that waiting on the bike to come in. Repeat customers come a few times and then after start questioning whats really going on. I know of 1 sale I lost to suzuki cause my customer was ready to buy NOW and I could not help him. | ||
| Concor |
I would be frustrated also if i lived in a warm weather climate and there were no bikes, and here i live in Wisconsin have great Buell dealers in surplus along with 1125's(not complaining) but theres a foot of snow on the ground. I suppose looking at my 1125 in the garage is still better than not having one at all. | ||
| Xb9 |
It's like a feeding frenzie! I think we have all been waiting a long, long time for this! I keep thinking though - Erik has waited and fought for this way harder and longer than any one of us can imagine. A couple more days is worth the wait. Thanks Erik!! | ||
| Jammin_joules |
This bike is so smart, it has a code you have to enter in order to start the bike, (if enabled) and too many attempts to guess and the whole thing shuts down. PIN is entered using display Toggle and Mode buttons. MPH & deg F, MPH deg C and KMH deg C units can be used. Regular service maintenance requirements come up on the ODIS, on-board diagnostics information system. Among expected display info, coolant and ambient temperatures are displayed, average & instantaneous fuel consumption, current lap time, difference of current to best, and 99 lap times are available for display too. Now the hard part, first 300 miles keep engine under 6,000rpm, up to 600 miles keep the engine under 7,500rpm. Also under 600 miles, don't lug the engine, brake easy and don't maintain a steady engine rpm. | ||
| Xb9 |
roll on, roll off, roll on, roll off, roll on roll off. Heat cycle, repeat. | ||
| Gsxr_is_gone |
Is there a black box in this bike that keeps track of how fast you are going? | ||
| Rah7777777 |
Ummm.... I'm confused here!! #1 the 1125R is a GREAT bike! we all agree on that, but if a dealer will give you a discount...............I see nothing wrong with that. I say the lower they go the better. Lets face it that is a rare moment. Usually its the opposite, they raise it up sky high! now where is this dealer offering discounts? i need to pack my bags  | ||
| Nguzzi |
I got 2 1125rs last friday. So now I just need my other 28. My first 6 are pre sold. | ||
| Ratbuell |
The philosophical problem with discounting a brand new product is it gives people the impression - right or wrong - that the product is "only" worth the lowest, or discounted, price. If it was worth more, then why would they be selling it for less? All of a sudden, the guy selling it for list price is "gouging" because buyers can "just go to <whatever> and get it for less". I expect buyers to seek out the best price, it's only natural. But the "best price", for the sake of the manufacturer and of the industry, needs to be fair to buyer and seller alike. Store X blowing out bikes doesn't help me or any other store that's trying to maintain product value by selling at MSRP. The flip side (and more personal to most people on here) to "product value" is, that 1125r you just bought, or the XB12R that you bought a year ago and now want to trade in on the 1125r, is now worth MUCH less because people have been discounting the brand new ones since the word "go". Discount pricing on new product = "less valuable" product. What was the t-shirt spotted at the dealer show recently...."This ain't *&^#$ Wal-Mart"? (Message edited by ratbuell on December 11, 2007) | ||
| Coal400 |
If a dealer discounts, below MSRP, they are losing the cut. Doesn't BMC make the same amount, regardless? Discounting may cause some pressure amongst dealerships but I don't think you'll get the walmart effect on a $12,000+ purchase. On the side of the dealership - I believe in supporting good business. I put other things into consideration too (as we've covered in my recent rants). Rat, do you feel that $12.5K OTD is overly aggressive for an 1125R? If the demand dictates, will you be willing to take $14k OTD for the same bike? I'm not just trying to be a smarta$$; I do really value your perspective. What dictates reckless, and what is good business? | ||
| Ratbuell |
Discounting has *already* caused the WalMart effect among HD and Buell customers (and I can assume others, but I only speak to that which I know). Look at the pricing threads that are all over the BB&D section about "overpriced" new 06 and 07 Uly's. Becuase of threads like that I had to sell our last '06 Uly for ***$8495***. Brand new. Granted...the "slower" orange color. LOL. Management decided it was better to sell for a loss than to continue carrying the vehicle. Thanks, Internet, for sharing all the great "knowledge" on *that* topic. The worst part is, all that "knowledge" is coming from people who own, and presumably love (at least to hear them tell it), the very motorcycles they are devaluing. Or try this fun little exercise. Deal with a customer every hour about our "ripoff pricing" (i.e. MSRP + freight + setup) on bikes because we aren't knocking $2500 off a brand new Softail just because the other guy is. Or giving away $2000 in free accessories. If I hear "I can go <wherever> and they're giving X away for free" one more time... Greed is greed, it doesn't matter if you have a $12 purchase or a $12,000 purchase. I actually believe it gets exponentially worse as the product price increases. Again, I understand folks wanting the best deal on goods. It's natural. I want whatever I can get for the best price I can get it for. What I don't condone or respect is the attitude that a certain level of giveaway is "owed" to them. This is the WalMart effect. When we as an industry have trained our customers to expect something for nothing, and we have trained them that if dealer X won't give it away they can go and bitch at dealer Y and they'll get it there, we have a problem. I have faith in Buell as a manufacturer. I believe they have priced the 1125r (and their other models) not only competitively, but fairly. When the vids of the 1125 were leaked before the dealer show, I expected a $16,000 motorcycle, or at the very least $14,500. When pricing was announced I nearly pissed myself. We've had delays, we've got a limited number of bikes out there, and we already have dealers advertising "deals" on the model. To answer your question directly - making a happy customer by selling a quality product for a fair price, constitutes Good Business. Good Business will be rewarded through natural progression by Repeat Business. Widespread devaluation of the product that puts food on our table...that's reckless. When a dealer discounts a unit, or a product, yes. They take the initial hit. That's their choice, like my $8500 Uly. When a trend develops (either through retailers or through consumers) that products are continuously being discounted....the PRODUCT - and its image - takes the hit. After the product comes the industry. Anyone look at HD stock lately? | ||
| Doerman |
You speaketh wisely there Mr. Goetz. It all makes sense. When I buy a motorcycle I buy from an outfit that is fun to deal with and are enthusiasts in the sport. When I buy a car I lowball the best I can. A car to me is just a commodity I need to get around. My loyalty to the car dealership is nill. My loyalty to a Buell dealer is 100%. In return for my loyalty I expect loyalty back, which I get from my local dealer. In this case I expect to pay MSPR for my 1125R. They are in short demand at the moment and there is usually a premium for the first on the block. They are not charging me a premium so they have earned the loyalty. I got close to buy a Pontiac Solstice when they first came out, but the dealers around here wanted $2K over sticker. That leaves me with a foul taste in my mouth. So no deal then or ever since. I fully agree with the argument that discounting leads to lowered value overall, for the brand, for the dealer, and most importantly for BMC itself. Here they have struggled (remember the reason for choosing black and blue as the initial color) to produce a fine product. A salesperson can always sell on discount. A fine salesperson sells on features. That takes product knowledge, something you have and not all Harley dealers do. To sell the 1125R at a discount at this point in time is a slap in the face to BMC. But independent dealers are just that, independent. The resale value does not concern me too much since i plan to keep my 1125R for a long time. That is selfish thinking on my part. The brand value suffers as a result of discount and that's the bad part. I salute you for sticking up for this fine product. Keep up the good work. Asbjorn | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"I expect buyers to seek out the best price, it's only natural. But the "best price", for the sake of the manufacturer and of the industry, needs to be fair to buyer and seller alike." You can say the same damn thing about gas/oil...but the question remains. Why is it bad to discount it? How much profit is enough? This is Harley we're talking about, they arguably demand a higher profit margin than almost any company out there. I'm not going to feel sorry for them or any dealer who won't budge on price, because a smart dealer did to get my business. By dealers competing with other dealers, we the consumer find out how much value something actually has. If one dealer has the 1125 for 12, but one has it for 11, I don't think I'm wrong in saying that the low dealer is still making money! If I buy an 1125 at 12k or 11k, my NADA value is going to be the same damn thing when I go to sell it next year. One thing that pisses me off about any motor dealer is that when they sell something off the floor, THE DEALERSHIP order it to sell and took it out of the box, off the truck to display it, now we the consumer have to pick up the tab for their order? I work part-time for Gander Mountain. If I sold a display Ice Fishing shanty, what do you think a customer would tell me if I said.."the price is 600.00, but I had to put it together and we had it shipped here, so that's another 200.00"..he'd say FU, and find another dealer. MSRP should include everything but tax and license. Freight and prep is just another way of dealers making extra on the sale. Otherwise, why isn't added directly to the price? | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"When I buy a car I lowball the best I can. A car to me is just a commodity I need to get around." "To sell the 1125R at a discount at this point in time is a slap in the face to BMC." So GM, Ford and or Chrysler don't deserve the same respect for their hard work and effort like you give Buell? | ||
| Buellnick |
The free market rules... Dealer loyalty has to be earned. My $.02 | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
What I love the most on the price tag... ONLY $99 a month! for 20 years NO MONEY DOWN! 30% interest rate for the life of the loan and my favorite!! SEE SALES STAFF!! bring the KY, grab your ankles, you about to get Shawshanked.... | ||
| Coal400 |
Thanks for your response Rat I recall a time when HD Dealers were able to name their price. People were standing in line like sheep, waiting to purchase a bike @ much more than MSRP, for nearly 2 years. Where does supply and demand fall into the equation? Not to dis the other fine models, but I'm betting the 1125R is the first Buell that will simply sell its self - at a rate faster than production can keep up with. There may be some Dealers who have a different sales model for the winter. Discount in the winter and jack up the price in the summer when demand increases. I could not see the 1125R being sold off like some of the other models in the past, but if a dealer can be profitable while discounting, that's a competitive edge. Walmart gets the cheapest labor on the planet to produce product in mind boggling volume. They are literally making their wealth on the efficiencies gained through cheap production and enormous volume. There is a perception that used to belong to "K-Mart", and I get your point there - I just think there is more to this than the Walmart effect. If I understand you correct, I think most of your argument, as it pertains to the 1125r, actually comes from the HD independent sales model. If HD were to adopt something like GM's Saturn brand, a one price affair, then you could alleviate some of the pressure caused by internal competition. HD stock is realizing a correction, and its no surprise to me. When a company becomes more concerned about their stock than their business, this is the result. It is my belief that a healthy business should drive stock value, and not the other way around. HD has certainly become the "Styrofoam" of the cruiser market. When people call your Yamaha a "Harley", you know your brand has achieved generic status. Unfortunately, HD has lost its exclusivity in some people's eyes. They have compromised on what made them unique and have chosen to compete in an entirely different space. IMO the turn came when they produced the V-Rod. The V-Rod is, IMO, the anti-Harley. I was also shocked to hear on NPR ~2003 that HD was talking about moving production to China... I know I have the luxury of sitting in the "arm chair" on this one, so I'll end at this. There is, no doubt, more to the picture than I can see. All that hot air aside- If you have a brand you believe in, and you think its worth 14,000 - go ahead and sell it for that. Just be aware that there are economic principles that you have to contend with. Selling 6 bikes at 14,000 may not get you the same profit as selling 10 times as many bikes at 12,000. FWIW- This was my feeble attempt at intellectual online conversation  I am not trying to "flame" you Rat. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
Selling 6 bikes at 14,000 may not get you the same profit as selling 10 times as many bikes at 12,000. AMEN!! You know what will happen when I don't spend that extra 2 grand for nothing? Now I am going to the parts counter to order.... bags, grips,tank bag.... and in 3 months when Buell gets production up to speed and the supply and demand are equal and the bike is now selling at MSRP, I wont feel like I got screwed, I also wont be telling all my friends about the screwing I got at dealer X and how I am now giving all my money to dealer Y. | ||
| Doerman |
So GM, Ford and or Chrysler don't deserve the same respect for their hard work and effort like you give Buell? In my opinion, no. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Buellinachinashop - as I mentioned before, there are *tax* reasons that freight and setup are not included in base pricing. Some states - like Maryland - do not allow taxes to be charged on "services" the same way they allow / require it to be charged on "goods". Hence, the seperation. And to take it a step further: put six cars, or 40 motorcycles, on a truck. You can divide the freight cost; the items are equal size / weight / space. Now fill a truck with groceries. How do you divide the freight charges there? Put it in the price. It's just easier in that case. And "if you buy your 1125 at 11k or 12k, the NADA will be the same"? NO, it will NOT. NADA takes as its first factor the AVERAGE SALE PRICE WHEN NEW, and they depreciate from there. They *show* list price, but do not figure from it. Guess what - they know when bikes are being sold below list price, and that is a PRIME factor in their valuations. How else would you find cars like Cobras and HemiCudas that have used prices HIGHER than the original "list" price? You can't. The only way for a value to be higher than list price is for the object to trade hands routinely for a higher value. The same is true for objects that trade at prices lower than list. If the math is this: purchase price - depreciation % - other factors (miles, condition, etc) = used value What do you think the used value will be if all factors remain exactly the same, but "purchase price" is cut by 1,000? Or 2,000? Straight math. If A - B = C, and D - B = E, and D is less than A, then E will have to be less than C. Yes, HD got fat and lazy and now they're paying for it. Buell hasn't gotten fat and lazy. They haven't had a chance, they've been fighting their way uphill ever since the start. Now they have to fight against their own dealers, too. And I won't get into hard numbers and get myself in trouble...but the dealers are definitely not getting rich by selling Buell motorcycles at MSRP. I'm not going to sell 1125r's for 14,000. I'm not going to sell them for 10,000. I'm going to sell them for MSRP plus freight plus setup plus taxes and tag. And I'm going to stick to that number like glue, because the bike (and the company) is worth every damned penny of that price, and so is the service you get from my dealership. | ||
| Blake |
Some Harley salesfolk may not understand that most other new motorcycles sell below MSRP just like most new automobiles. Freight and prep added on top of MSRP or any agreed sales price would rub me the wrong way too. If I had an option to pick-up a new Buell from the factory and/or setup/prep the bike myself, then maybe that scheme would seem more valid. But bottom line is the total price no matter how it is achieved. Yes? | ||
| Jlnance |
If HD were to adopt something like GM's Saturn brand, a one price affair, then you could alleviate some of the pressure caused by internal competition. Does GM tell Saturn dealers what to charge, or just have a no-negotiations policy? I don't think dealers can be told what to charge. I believe it violates price fixing laws, which are there to ensure the competition you're trying to eliminate. | ||
| Bonjoxb12s |
Set-up/prep and Freight are all included when an individual dealer buys from corporate. These "fees" they add are just adding a few extra $$ to line the dealerships pockets with. It doesn't hurt the dealers to sell at under MSRP and why? Because H-D has a $2500 to $4k profit on each bike (that doesn't include the screaming eagles that are higher). Now Buells don't fit into that category, as they really don't have much mark up.... my point is selling the bikes under MSRP doesn't hurt Buell in any way..... they already have been paid. If anyone is losing out, it's the individual dealer...... | ||
| Buellerandy |
This ones easy- here at Appleton, I'm one of 51 employees I guess theres no real reason for us to be paid decent wages. Thank god I don't work on a percentage, but in the shoes for those who do...have you ever had job where customers come up to you daily to ask you to work for less? Not being an dick, just adding a different perspective. | ||
| Wolfridgerider |
have you ever had job where customers come up to you daily to ask you to work for less? Every day.... The lower I go on the price the less I make. BUT on the same note, I would rather my customer tell me they got a better number from someone and let me have the chance to match the price. If I can do it I will, If not I will tell them thanks and thats that. Most of the time if I get close, I will get the order. I would rather have 10% of something than 100% of nothing, but thats just me. | ||
| Buellerandy |
Definitely Wolf. I was just trying to bring up a point that just because a dealership says "Harley Davidson" doesn't mean that its employees, managers, and boss don't have to put their pants on the same way their customers do. And when people say "great service" that means $$ as well. For customers to expect a dealership to go out of its way for them, thats an expense on the dealership. One that plenty of dealerships are willing to do as long as they can afford it. If a dealership is giving away product for a low marginal profit that hardly covers the ability to cover being open, how would it ever be able to take care of its customers and employees? There have been a number of dealerships seriously affected by how much other dealerships are discounting bikes which, as stated before, lowers the value altogether in that area. Area meaning a state sized location if not multiple states. I know I'm probably preaching to a choir, but HD is a corporation, dealerships are still privately owned, and bottom line discounting on HDs as well as Buells has the ability of affecting even the most formidable dealerships. I've only had my job/position for less than a year and I saw that after my first 3 Buell sales and 2 Harley sales this past spring. And I do agree with discounting to a degree. Which is up to that individual. I have the best intentions on having satisfied customers, but when I have someone coming up to me expecting a 1500.00 drop off from our listed price on a current year production model(HD and Buell), that person didn't come to purchase a bike, they came to steal one. I mean, does anyone else feel me on this topic or am I just blowing things outta proportion? Sorry for the rant, this whole season just had my mind boggled from what I had been expecting. |
