| Author | Message | ||
     Bonjoxb12s |
Now, I'm not interested in getting into the argument here but I'll say this. If some of these individuals had read other posts on the 1125R, they would have seen that many commented on "fixes" that were taking place as the bike was at the "track days". I'm sure Buell has all intentions to run these bikes into the ground and make sure everything is running as smooth as possible BEFORE putting one on the show room floor. Trojan and Al.... thank you for all of your products and I'm sure I speak for more than just myself. Without you we would not be able to turn these great bikes into something personal and meaningful. Buell, thank you for making a great bike and selling it at a fair price. Coming from a dealership I know the mark up, and I'll be glad to tell anyone that Buell isnt becoming rich from selling their bikes. They are doing the best they can, and I'm sure putting a lot more money into these projects then they are getting out. Thanks to BOTH parties here for trying to get Buell's name out and give us what we want!! | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
I've got over 10,000 miles on my original ULY drive belt and no problems so far with it. | ||
| Ceejay |
Has anyone seen a belt fail at the inside pass events? I didn't at the one I was just at, where there was a bunch of tubers, XB's and close to 20 1125's. I know a race track isn't exactly real world, but I'd think you'd pretty hard pressed to find a more challenging environment than one where the rider quality goes from newbie to expert, and the speed ranges from 150 to 30 to 150 in less than 20 seconds. Plus they get gas, maybe a tire pressure and oil check. Probably 50 buells, didn't notice a single belt break... | ||
| Jaimec |
Yeah, but how well would they hold up on the daily commute to and from Brooklyn along Atlantic Avenue? Now THERE'S an acid test! | ||
| Reepicheep |
This must be another language thing... at first, I read that as "oh geesh, Buell blew it again, and built a bike that needs to be professionally tweaked in order to handle right". And I was all set up to point out that *any* motorcycle requires professional tweaking to handle right. But I don't think you were saying that. I have now rode the 1125R. The motor is astounding. I can hardly wait for one to show up in a lightning chassis. I might even tolerate a radiator, it pulled that hard and had such an incredible power band. The handling was also fairly amazing to me, but I am a lousy datapoint. I was a fast novice rider, and treated the 1125r I rode like it was unfamiliar and somebody else's bike, with extreme respect and caution. That being said, I was probably lapping faster with the 1125 riding cautiously then I was with my 9sx pushing fairly hard. I talked to one of the track instructors afterwards about their impression. I asked if the 1125R stock suspension would be up to track usage. His view was that it was far more likely to work for a track rider then a Japanese bike stock setup, mainly because Buell is not building bikes assuming 150 pound riders that are 5'2". He then went on to say that any bike would benefit from $3000 to $9000 custom configured Ohlin's or Penske's. This included the Ducati's that come stock with Ohlins, he recommended they sell those parts and buy the *good* Ohlins parts that are tweaked for their weight. So is the 1125r suspension up to competitive racing? It's close, but no, and neither is any other reasonable production bike. It's a $5000 difference... and if you are serious about racing at that level, you will buy it. Is the stock suspension good for serious track days / fun oriented racing? Yes. Is the suspension absolute and total freaking overkill for the street? Yes, yes, and yes. For perspective, about the worst tire you would run on the track is something like a Diablo Super Corsa III. I bet those things turn to dust after about 2500 street miles, and I bet they are a $160 tire. I bet the stock 1125r suspension is already overkill for that level of tire. There wasn't any flaw in the 1125 handling so basic as "the belt is binding up the rear suspension". And I saw no belts with any problems all day long. And these bikes were being ridden *HARD* and put away wet. Beat the snot out of them for 10 minutes of a 20 minute session, wheel them back to the paddock, get the next group of riders on board, and get them out on the track for the next 20 minute session. Repeat from 9am until 4pm. What a great setup to try and break a motorcycle. Flaws on the 1125 during the day? One of them needed brakes bled. I think they *might* have wheeled one more out with some sort of a stumble / fueling problem. The other 38 ran perfectly based on what I heard from everyone... and while there were some personal preference issues (i.e. I prefer the howl of an inline four over a twin), I didn't hear anyone say that the bike had any limitations. The guy I went with, riding his dedicated race Honda 600rr, was amazed at how much better power of the 1125r was, both in terms of power spread, and in terms of top end. Oh how things have changed... | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Of course, all bikes need suspension settings to work better. Of course, I like the fact that Buells are very sensitive to suspension settings, more that many bikes. You never get bored ridding it, since you always experiment and always find small improvements. It shows that the suspension is of good quality, and that the chassis is rigid. Ducatis are just like that, sensitive as well. Of course, belts are strong enough these days. My XB12R have 32.000 km and really had no problems with the belt. I am acually very happy that I use no 'chain spray' and my back wheell is always clean. I still think that a belt, will get less stressed with the spring tensioner. Of course Buell's (XB & 1125R) rear suspension works fine with the fixed tensioner. I just believe that they would work even better with the spring tensioner. In any conventional bike, when the chain gets very tight, the suspension is not working as it should. Sometimes if the chain is too tight it does not work at all. That is why manufacturers recomend a certain slack in the chain, so that when the suspension is compressed, the chain is not too tight to fight against the suspension. This is very clear to any biker, and especially the ones doing off-road, dirt riding, since their bikes have large rear suspension travel. The same with belts. When belts get too tight, the suspension is not working freely. For the XB, it is a 'smart' thing that the fixed tensioner makes the belt to get tight, when the suspension extends. Under acceleration, when the suspension compresses, the belt gets loose and the suspension works OK. But when braking or over bumps, when the suspension extends, the fixed pulley makes the belt too tight and the suspension is not working at its 100%. I think this is very clear, and I wonder why it is so difficult for many people to accept. I do not sell these tensioners, so there is nothing for me to gain. Reepicheep, I agree for the Corsa III. I think Michelin Pilot Power 2CT would suit the bike better. They definately suit the XB much better than Corsas | ||
| Spatten1 |
Last year when Liberty sponsored the Buell track day at Pocono (not exclusively Buell), I was as the starting line, looked to my right, and there was a broken drive belt on the ground at the side of the track. Don't have any clue what model it came from. It was ironic though, sitting next to all those chain drive bikes staring at that broken belt. On the positive side, I had a great run with the Buell. The flag marshalls at Pocono are old bearded Harley biker types. On my last run I got the thumbs up from the guy working the end of the banking at the fast left turn. He was stoked that I was able to stuff some imports with the Buell under braking then pull away through the next set of turns. I run mid-pack with the Buell in the intermediate class at Pocono. That is WAY underpowered, relying totally on handling and riding too aggressivley for my own good. The Buell works great there. The cool part is you get a lot of surprised positive comments because no one expects you to be able to do anything with it. There is nothing better than beating someone with double your horsepower. | ||
| Anonymous |
The same with belts. When belts get too tight, the suspension is not working freely. For the XB, it is a 'smart' thing that the fixed tensioner makes the belt to get tight, when the suspension extends. Under acceleration, when the suspension compresses, the belt gets loose and the suspension works OK. But when braking or over bumps, when the suspension extends, the fixed pulley makes the belt too tight and the suspension is not working at its 100%. I think this is very clear, and I wonder why it is so difficult for many people to accept. Perhaps it's because we know exactly how little the tension changes over the entire range of suspension travel, including extension, which is the whole point of the Buell fixed tensioner design in the first place? | ||
| Sokota |
A observation I made immediately after installing the Free Spirit pulley was how much easier the rear wheel spun by hand . | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Hi Anonymous, 'Perhaps it's because we know exactly how little the tension changes over the entire range of suspension travel, including extension, which is the whole point of the Buell fixed tensioner design in the first place?' OK, I personaly do not know how much the tension changes. But, I do know that the spring tensioner works 'magic' for the XB's rear suspension. Maybe the fixed tensioner is making the belt too tight and the suspension is not working at its 100% potential. I have a question for you Anonymous: Have you actually given a spring tensioner a try to see for yourself?? Or, what you say is based in theory and solving equations in computer models?? | ||
| Paintballtommy |
okay vagelis46 what annony says makes sense. they know how Little the belt tension changes over the ENTIRE suspension travel. so obviously theyve measured it. and then you come back and say again that the tensioner is making it to tight??? and plus as was stated before goodyear are the guys paying the waranty I wonder why they would specify a fixed tensioner? | ||
| Anonymous |
Vagelis, Read through the message string; this was answered earlier. We did test with tensioners and we do a lot of testing as well as analysis. Are you really trying to be insulting? | ||
| Vagelis46 |
'Are you really trying to be insulting?' No. Unfortunately, with just writing a text, my tone is not clear. I am just trying to express my riding experience to other Buellers. Also talking to people from the factory is good. I really find this discussion very interesting. I have a passion for motorcycles, and this is quality time. I have nothing more to say for this discussion. But I will say this : BMW will enter the WSBK in 2009. What do you think for this ? | ||
| Paintballtommy |
what the •••• does that have to do with a spring loaded belt tensioner? | ||
| Buellshyter |
They designed it to be a fixed tensioner in order to get rid of drive lash. It's one of the selling points of the bike and something Buell is proud of. +1 to that !! I find drive lash very annoying, especially after being spoiled by the very smooth operation of the Buell drive line. | ||
| Alchemy |
Hey, why not comment as we are all respectful friends here. I see two issues under discussion here. One is too much tension on the belt restricting the action of the suspension. The other is the belt breaking due to too much tension on the belt. We do know that belts have broken. Seems to me if the belt is not under tension then at some point that "slop" (the travel allowed by the spring) is going to be taken out as the engine accelerates very briefly under no load (slop). Shortly thereafter the slop will end and result in the added momentum allowed by the slop being added to the force of the engine. Seems to this non-engineer that this would be substantially more stress on the belt and possibly result in more stress-related breaks. The only advantage would be in removing the belt more easily (perhaps) and having less handling damage to the belt as a result. This could be real and the fix would be a better considered (drop dead simple) method of removing the tire with no risk of belt damage. It may be that spring loading reduces handling damage to the belt when changing tires etc. I am certainly not sure of this. As for the spring loaded slop freeing the action of the suspension I have to wonder if there is not a price paid in the smooth predicable action of the suspension when the end of that spring loaded slop acts on the suspension and tire traction. It would seem to me that predictable action of the suspension would benefit from a consistently tensioned belt. How is the action of the suspension to handle the additional action of the variable spring loading in a suspension element that is sometimes under compression and sometimes extending? As much as the spring loaded tensioner sounds at first like a good idea, I have to say that if the design accounts for the tension on the bearings and suspension elements adequately then the fixed tension idea is fundamentally superior in concept. Or maybe I am just woefully misunderstanding this discussion which is quite possible. I am thinking and learning a bit which is a good thing.  | ||
| Dave_bogue |
Chain driven motorcycles do not have chain tensioners. Why does a belt driven bike benefit from one? Dave Rice-burner owner | ||
| Al_lighton |
No driveline lash is one reason. I've ridden Ebears Tuono a bit, and the horrible amount of driveline lash is the first thing I notice when I ride it. It wasn't bad but it was definitely present on the tube frame Buells. But the XB LACK of driveline lash is directly attributable to the use of that idler. But the other thing is the handling gained with the squat control that the idler permits. If you put a swingarm at that angle without an idler, the change from full loose to full tight as the swingarm rose would render the bike undriveable from both a lash, wear, and vibration perspective. The idler permits the proper swingarm angles for optimum drive and handling. Read the article that someone posted a link to earlier. It is a very good explanation, and it makes perfect sense. Idlers are good. | ||
| Midknyte |
some o ya'lls got some readin to do... http://a1264.g.akamai.net/7/1264/1354/1e959d6a08bc 2b/www.buell.com/en_us/buell_way/buelltech/pdf_111 2_2004.pdf http://www.buell.com/en_us/buell_way/buelltech.asp | ||
| Trojan |
If you put a swingarm at that angle without an idler, the change from full loose to full tight as the swingarm rose would render the bike undriveable from both a lash, wear, and vibration perspective. Not necessarily Al. When you change a stock XB to a chain drive you obviously have to have a lot more slack in the driveline, yet don't suffer any handling. driveline lash or drive problems at all, even using the stock swingarm. Also, compare the angle of the swingarm on the XB to the CBR600RR and you'll see that they are very similar. The CBR uses no idler yet has the smoothest drive you could ever wish for coupled with handling that is as good or better than the stock XB. The Tuono & RSV range has a notoriously snatchy low down drive which is exacerbated by slack chain adjustment. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Dave... the short answer is that a chain will permanently stretch as a part of normal use. So even if you did initially design a zero lash system like the Buell, it wouldn't last, as once the chain stretched (non linearly) your slack is back. The belt doesn't stretch... so if you could then solve the lash problem (Buell did it with an idler wheel, other makers at other times have done it by locating the output sprocket in line with the swingarm pivot), you have then really solved the problem. I was talking with an import rider at the track day, and pointing out how easy it was to mount the rear wheel (no fussy axle adjusters), the 20k+ mile belt life, the 5 lbs less rotational and unsprung inertia, and the zero lash, and you could see the wheels turning. His followup question was "why isn't everyone doing it?". My answer was that the technology was not really there until Buell put all the pieces together and pushed the belt makers to really improve things... and for the same reason that imports don't have exhausts under the engine and they stick them up high and off to the side. He was sharp enough to get the reference... a generation of sport bike riders have now seen the mainstream press do the full cycle of going from "Buell is making these quirky and crazy design changes again" type comments to "Suzuki has finally caught on to the Buell benefits of an underbike exhaust". If there is not wider adoption soon... it will probably because Buell has locked up a patent or two. Belts with tensioners and zero slack are a huge benefit for a bike for a lot of reasons... I just spent way too much of yesterday morning putting a new chain on my KLR-250 (9000 miles on the bike, old chain snapped with no warning in the middle of nowhere). It was a royal, messy, and time consuming PITA. I'm lucky it didn't crack an engine case (the swingarm is already badly damaged by what was likely a jammed up broken chain from a previous owner). If I had done it right (remember, this is a 1985 KLR 250 that I got for $600 on ebay) it would have been $150 or more, and a two or three hour job, and should be repeated every 12k miles or so. The KLR-250 is a great little play bike, but it is driving home to me just how spoiled I have been with the XB9SX. Karmic payback for fighting the good fight with the M2 (which frankly, in hindsight, was even more reliable then this KLR). 20k miles of oil / gas / tires, and even tire changes are far simpler then your average import tire change. It's an incredibly low maintenance bike. I have 20k on the XB9SX original belt now. I am torn if I should get a new one this winter, mount it, and carefully put the old one back in a box and have it hanging on the garage wall for the wife to run out to me (or for me to run out to somebody on the RAN list) when my belt fails... or if I should just keep riding this thing and see how far it goes. Hard to drop the $150 or so for a new belt, when the original looks *perfect* after 20k miles. | ||
| Trojan |
I have been riding bikes for 30 years now, and have NEVER broken a chain, on the road or racing. Since 1998 I have owned only Buells and have bought & replaced 5 belts because of failures. I would be quite happy never to own a belt drive bike again. Everyone has anecdotal evidence to prove one side or the other. I very much doubt that we will see the big 4 Jap factories adopt belt drive on their sports bikes any time soon for a number of reasons. Chains lose less power than belts do, and in the ultra competitive world of 600 & 1000 sports bikes every bhp counts. Most sportsbikes are designed with the track in mind, and chain drive allows easy and quick gearing changes that belt drive does not. I can see plenty of commuter bikes picking up belt drive, and BMW already use it on their 650 & 800 models, but I don't see it catching on in the supersports category. Remember, even the 'offical' Buell racers don't use belts on track. | ||
| Jaimec |
The biggest issue of using a belt for racing is gearing. You'd need a different belt for nearly every pulley combination; it's not just a matter of adding or removing links like it is with a chain. I'm surprised BMW is campaigning a shaft-driven motorcycle in endurance racing, but I guess gearing changes are less important that pitting for chain repairs. They've announced they WILL compete in WSBK in 2009. I'm guessing they have a chain-driven IL4 coming out real soon... no WAY you can compete with a shaft drive in THAT class! | ||
| Dave_bogue |
I have changed the gearing (usually -1 front sprocket) on every chain driven motorcycle (all I-4 engines) I've owned (numerous). The exception to that is my SV1000. The Suzuki V2 has so much low rpm torque that I had no desire to alter the gearing. Therefore, I don't think that gear changes on the larger displacement 1125 will be a factor for the street rider. The V2 engine is a wonderful thing for the average sportbiker on the public roads. I look forward to NOT having to lubricate a chain before every Sunday morning ride. I want the belt! BTW, I know that BMC likes to tout it's advanced engineering by using the belt, but didn't Buell just use the belt because it's part and parcel of the Sportster drive train? Dave Former Sportster 1200 Sportster owner (with 883 "pulley") | ||
| M1combat |
Yes Matt the Buell racers don't use chains on the track. I wouldn't either unless my belt drive ratio happened to be just right. I'd bet they would use it on the street though. If you don't have the over riding need to switch gear ratios then belts are a very attractive alternative. Better in my humble opinion. "BTW, I know that BMC likes to tout it's advanced engineering by using the belt, but didn't Buell just use the belt because it's part and parcel of the Sportster drive train? " WTF? Maybe... But it's nice that they were smart enough to finally do a belt correctly AND that the system turned out to be better than a chain in every respect aside from possible gearing changes. Go Buell. I've been riding for 24 years and I have broken a chain. It sucks. I've broken two belts (I was abusing one and the other had a hole in it already) and neither did damage to me or the bike. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Trojan... are you sure about chain losses versus belt losses? And is that for "the day out of the box and in lab conditions"... or for 5000 miles into ownership with average owner maintenance? | ||
| Metalstorm |
Boy do I feel left out. I've been riding since 1985 and I havn't broken a chain or a belt yet. What am I doing wrong?   As much as I love the no lubing required by a belt drive, the selling point for me is that single hole for the axle. No adjustments needed. I get a warm & fuzzy feeling of pure joy every time I have to take the rear wheel off/on | ||
| Spike |
So uh, anyone actually measure the belt path through the range of suspension travel yet? So far we have two parties that claim to have measured the belt path length through the suspension travel, both sell products based on their claims, and neither has posted their data. Until that happens, everything claimed about the use of tensioners is anecdotal and subjective while any additional comments only serve as rhetoric and semantics. | ||
| Imonabuss |
It seems to me you can pick whichever you prefer. Buell has reasons for doing it their way and the aftermarket has different reasons. I certainly am sure Buell has full CAD data and FEA analytical work as well as information many of the other CAE engineering tools they choose. They also have an enormous amount of time on the track testing, far more than anyone in the aftermarket. So, if you want to install an aftermarket part there are plenty of choices, and you may have good reasons to change for your use. Doing so because you believe Buell did the original design wrong or did it to save money or did it because they are ignorant, closed-minded, etc. is probably unfair to Buell. Along with many European and Japanese imports, I have owned a number of Buells, some of which I modified. The ones I modified turned out worse for me in the end, because I basically ride as a quick street sportbike rider, and not on the race track anymore. The ones with trick parts on them sit parked because they are loud, uncomfortable and less reliable. They are fun, and were fun to tinker with, but OE seems best for me. | ||
| M1combat |
"So uh, anyone actually measure the belt path through the range of suspension travel yet? " Yes... http://tinyurl.com/ytjjl5 |
