| Author | Message | ||
     Vagelis46 |
I have installed a "Free Spirits" belt tensioner on my XB12R, and immidiately noticed the rear suspension working better. The rear wheel keeps a better contact to the road, and most importantly, ,when braking hard, the rear wheel stays on the ground. Also the belt is definately less stressed, and I bet its life is much greater with the tensioner. Is the factory considering using a spring-loaded belt tensioner on the 1125R??? I guess the cost is not an issue here, right?? Is this the missing link for a 100% boolet-proof belt for the 1125R + better rear suspension and handling??? | ||
| Anonymous |
One word answer to your bottom line question: No. | ||
| M1combat |
So on deceleration the spring will compress... I'd guess that this will put slack in the top of the belt. Snap the throttle open and the engine spins up a tad... Maybe the shock loads from that will snap the belt easier? I would guess yes. I would also guess that the tightening of the belt near the very bottom of swing arm travel would act something like a reversed progressive rate spring where the last bit of swing arm extension actually reduces spring rate. That sounds like a good thing to me as well... I've never heard anyone else mention anything about handling improvements coming from the spring loaded tensioner. The only thing that would help to keep the rear on the ground under braking would be you using less brakes or physically modifying the shock so the swing arm could drop further (not a good idea IMO). I think it's in your head... No offense. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Hello M1, "I think it's in your head... No offense." No offense, whatsoever. I just propose to you to buy one tensioner for your XB, and see for yourself if it improves the rear suspension and braking stability or not. http://www.britnett-carver.co.uk/trojanhorse/prods /pc8.html Sometimes if the majority thinks in a particular direction, does not mean they are right. I have the impression, from one thread, that you had brake overheating problems with a particular pad brand, that everyone else were saying were the best. The majority is not necessarily right. I am backing up your claims for those pads, since I also had big problems with them. Switched back to EBC GFA345HH and I am OK now Hello Anonymous, "One word answer to your bottom line question: No." Since the factory seems so confident about sorting the handling issues of the 1125R, and all your solutions are 100% right I wonder this : Why the bikes introduced to the press where having problems and got so many negative comments ? | ||
| Spike |
If that isn't bait I don't know what is. To keep it relevant to the idler pulley; which review mentioned having problems or negative comments related to the belt tension or the rear suspension? | ||
| Reepicheep |
How does a spring help a belt that has no slack throughout the range of it's motion? I saw very few problems and negative comments in all the press reports I have been following closely. Even if there were, to claim that it would be fixed by adding a spring loaded tensioner is just plain stupid. The only theoretical advantage I could see to a spring tensioner would be if you got a rock or some other debris between the belt and the pulley, and while the tensioner would theoretically allow the belt to "stretch", the tooth phasing wouldn't, and the torque of either acceleration or deceleration wouldn't, so I doubt it would help you in the first place. It would be an easy test... disconnect the shock and try and move the rear swingarm (with belt in place) through it's entire range of motion. I bet it would do so easily, and I bet there is virtually no slack at any point in the movement. With no slack, I don't see what a spring tensioner would accomplish. | ||
| Rfischer |
Bingo! | ||
| Bobup |
the spring tensioner would accomplish this.... sales of an aftermarket bolt-on product that someone will make money on. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Hi Reepi "Even if there were, to claim that it would be fixed by adding a spring loaded tensioner is just plain stupid. " Nice comment, and nice way to start a discussion. Since you are a software engineer, it would not be easy for me to convience you for the benefits of a spring loaded tensioner to a belt drive. Maybe you should perform a much simpler test than the one you propose. Put the rear spring preload of the XB to 1 and sit on the bike, feel the slack of the tensioner. Then put the rear preload to 7 with the bike on the side stand and feel the slack. Then we can start the discussion of the benefits for the working of the rear suspension, with a constant load of 10kg on the belt, throughout the range of motion. | ||
| Jaimec |
Basically what YOU are saying is that this treatise is a bunch of hooey then: http://tinyurl.com/ytjjl5 | ||
| Glitch |
OK I'm not running out to my bike right this second to check... In my mind I can only see the spring loaded pulley holding any tension when the rear tire has lost contact with the ground? Stoppie? | ||
| Rfischer |
I think Vagelis has nicely sawn off the limb he and his drive-belt spring tensioner equipped XB12R were parked on. Word up, Man: give it a rest. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"I think Vagelis has nicely sawn off the limb he and his drive-belt spring tensioner equipped XB12R were parked on. " My english is not that good to understand what exactly you are trying to say. So please, re-phrase it! | ||
| Rfischer |
Sorry, didn't mean to disrespect you. Translation: The point you have tried to make is technically wrong. Give it up. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"Sorry, didn't mean to disrespect you." Apologies accepted. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I would *never* start a conversation that way Vagelis46. I continued a conversation *you* started with:
So I followed with:
I said that because: 1) Contrary to your assertion, there were very few comments about negative handling. 2) Even if there were, to claim that they would be fixed by adding a spring loaded tensioner would be nearly 100% speculation, and would run nearly 100% contrary to currently established facts. So I responded just like any good software should. I didn't say *you* were stupid, I said it would be a stupid assertion to make. If I said it, it would be just as stupid an assertion, and would have to be filed away with many other stupid assertions I have made in my lifetime  Your later note was a step in the right direction, and started to try and establish some new facts. If you can do that, then it will be a lot less stupid of an assertion It's not clear to me what preload would have to do with it, but at least for my bike, with my current preload setting, I have zero belt slack at every position I have managed to observe my swingarm occupy. Further, some calculations Blake did a few years ago show how high compression forces on the bearings and sprockets can go if the belt is binding even slightly. As I type this message, I have a pile of parts from an old M2 Cyclone that were rendered "desk art" by a belt that was only slightly binding. If the XB belt is binding the swingarm, especially to the degree necessary to impact handling, it would be destroying bearings and transmissions. If it had a lot of slack, there would be observable lash in the drive train. If it's there, I have not noticed it in 20k miles on an XB platform. And if it were there, A spring tensioner won't help it. If the shoe fits, I call my own ideas stupid as well, so my apologies if that felt like a personal attack. Your comment towards the anonymous poster felt like a fairly aggressive attack, so I assumed that was the communication standard you wanted to use. | ||
| Blake |
Greek to American to Greek translation issues methinks? | ||
| Trojan |
I've never heard anyone else mention anything about handling improvements coming from the spring loaded tensioner. Improved suspension movement and better handling are just two of the benifits of the sprung tensioner. Others include much improved belt and bearing life. On the XB (and presumably on the 1125 too) the standard 'bow string' belt tension puts massive extra load on gearbox & wheel bearings, adn actually restrict suspension movement simply because the belt tension is fighting against the suspension when in compression but even more so in extension. Believe me, the difference when fitting the sprung tensioner is like the difference between riding a hardtail & a softail Harley. Our research and experience has shown that most belt breakages occur not from stone damage or foreign objects, but when the suspension extends such as when crossing speed humps, railway crossings or opther quite sudden bumps. This puts massive strain on the belt and bearings, and results in snapped belts. When the sprung tensioner was first introduced I sent one to the Buell factory for their views, but never received any feedback or reply. My view is that it isn't fitted att eh factory purely because it would add cost to the manufacture of the bike. | ||
| Ceejay |
The first time I saw an XB I thought it had to be a spring loaded tensioner, but if you think about it, why? The fixed pulley works because someone did the math and put the pulley in the proper position. The belt rides on it when the axle and output are closest to one another. As the the suspension is compressed, the belt tightens until it reaches full compression at which point the belt is most probably off of the pulley-I don't know as I haven't removed rear shock assy to check it and I really haven't thought about it too much while riding. This would be the best way to check whether your belt us under too much tension-pull the shock(it's two bolts) after suspending your bike of course, and then move the rear wheel up and down through its range of motion. If it doesn't move freely due to the belt-I'd bet that your belt is ready for replacement. With heat these belts stretch a little, and as they cool down, they begin to shrink, if yours is too tight it may have had too many cycles on it. Buell would be crazy to make a line of bikes for 5 yrs now that had swingarm that moved fluidly until the belt was installed, and would be even more crazy if they continued to do it. | ||
| Trojan |
Buell would be crazy to make a line of bikes for 5 yrs now that had swingarm that moved fluidly until the belt was installed, and would be even more crazy if they continued to do it. Crazy or not, that is what has been happening. We have sold around 10 tensioners pre week for 5 years to people who can feel the difference immediately. We have not had a single customer come back to us and say that they have not felt an improvement, nor have we had a single customer tell us that their belt has broken since fitting one of these devices. Manufacturers do get their maths wrong sometimes. They also build bikes down to a price in order to make a profit, so you'll see that a lot of parts on stock bikes are not the best available but are economical to produce and provide higher margins for the manufacturer. The belt tensioner is one such area where it is cheaper for the manufacturer to make a fixed item fixed than it is to produce a more complicated sprung tensioner. | ||
| Court |
>>>>The fixed pulley works because someone did the math and put the pulley in the proper position. Lots of math. But . . hey . . . if there is demand for 2,600 after market tensioners. . . knock yourself out. I've never heard of 2600 of ANY aftermarket accessory selling. Congratulations. | ||
| Trojan |
>>>>The fixed pulley works because someone did the math and put the pulley in the proper position. Lots of math. If true, why do belts break when the suspension reaches full extension? and more importantly, why does the sprung tensioner improve things in just about every respect? over the original part? Somebody got the math a bit wrong in that case. Belt breakage due to 'hyper tenion'is not just a remote possibility or a 'one off' occurrence. We see it all the time and it is very common. These are by far the most popular aftermarket part for the XB that we have ever sold, although there are some other parts that have sold almost as many.. (Message edited by trojan on October 01, 2007) | ||
| Jimidan |
When the sprung tensioner was first introduced I sent one to the Buell factory for their views, but never received any feedback or reply. My view is that it isn't fitted att eh factory purely because it would add cost to the manufacture of the bike. Nawww...Buell has shown that it is not at the mercy of the HD bean counters by making the 1125R with all metric fasteners, rather than a "mix and match" bike with both SAE and Metric fasteners, just to save a few bucks. I am just not buying it that they would skimp on something like the spring idler pulley that would have saved hundreds (thousands?) of owners the anguish of breaking a belt on their XB bikes. Surely Buell looked at spring tensioners in their analysis and testing phases of XB development. | ||
| Trojan |
Unfortunately Jimi, I think Buell are no diferent from every other manufacturer when it comes to bean counters and saving money for more profit. There is not a motorcycle manufacturer in existence that is in any way Altruistic enough to be making bikes purely for our benefit. The bottom line for all of them from Zhong Shen to Buell is profit. Motorcycle companies (with a few expensive exceptions) give us just enough to be happy with and as little as they can get away with for the price we have to pay. If this was not the case then every bike would come with top of the range suspension and chassis parts, would cost an absolute fortune and would be the only bike we would ever buy. There is no difference in price between metric & Imperial fasteners. In fact the metric ones may work out slightly cheaper because they are more commonly used worldwide. Obviously, being European, Rotax won't work with Imperial size fasteners so Buell would have been faced with either a complete mix n'match (more expensive) or choosing all metric. There are plenty of other parts on the bikes that are obviously built to a price rather than to a quality, and that is exactly the same for every manufacturer. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Buell has shown that it is not at the mercy of the HD bean counters by making the 1125R with all metric fasteners, rather than a "mix and match" bike with both SAE and Metric fasteners, just to save a few bucks. Good sarcasm. For those that didn't catch it, the bikes are still mix-n-match according to Annony. I am just not buying it that they would skimp on something like the spring idler pulley that would have saved hundreds (thousands?) of owners the anguish of breaking a belt on their XB bikes. I think it also comes down to engineers being principaled (read stubborn). Denying that belts have broken is folly. Buell seems to stick to engineering principals despite shortcomings, and keep improving things rather than using conventional designs to put an issue to rest. | ||
| Jaimec |
What if they wrapped the pulleys in teflon tape? | ||
| Hammer71 |
I am just not buying it that they would skimp on something like the spring idler pulley that would have saved hundreds (thousands?) of owners the anguish of breaking a belt on their XB bikes. Instead they skimped on the headlights. Hopefully those are better on this bike. | ||
| Reepicheep |
If Buell was trying to save money on that idler wheel assembly, they failed miserably. That thing is a beautiful piece of aluminum. It's going on my desk when the original wears out. Here is some math that would be relevent: Given the various pulley sizes, how much force would have to be applied to break a belt? What is the corresponding crush strength for the bearings on either end, and on the idler wheel? Is it even possible to break a belt by "over tensioning" it without crushing a bearing? I tried it on my M2 and failed... the belt was fine, the bearing becam scrap metal. Vagelis, sorry about my tone above, I apologize. It was stupid of me to speak that way, it added nothing to the conversation. | ||
| Anonymous |
There is no cost cutting involved here, and it really is disappointing to see people who have no idea of the facts bashing like this. I suppose that is the world of the Internet. The belt manufacturer is involved in every aspect of the design, and they approve of the fixed idler. Since they are not paying the bill for the idler, but are paying the bill for warranty, why would they not require an idler? They receive back and analyze every failure we can get to them from the field and from testing, and they have never identified too tight as a reason for failure. They do complete microscopic analysis and know what the issues are. The fact is, they are more concerned about "too loose" than about "too tight". In their opinion the standard design is never too tight. But that's just the educated opinion of the people who manufacture the belt. Yours may vary. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
There are many things that improve the XB12R instantly, but the factory never gave the required attention. All these would cost the factory something like an extra $150 for each bike. But 10.000 bikes x $150 = $1.500.000. That is a lot of money for the people doing the marketing and financial analysis. I bet these people have never ridden a bike in their life. 1. Nissin 14mm front brake master cylinder. Major improvement in brake 'feel' and power over the 1/2'' fitted. 2. Footpegs. OEM are very slippery when pushing hard, almost dangerous. The ones with the rubber cover, offered as "traction" by Buell lasted 1 month with my feet pushing them. The rubber weared out and they became worse than the OEM. Now I use the "crossroads fierce competition" and these are the ones (or something with similar grip & feel)that should have been fitted in the first place. 3. Spring loaded belt tensioner. Major improvement. I am glad it took Trojan to step up in the conversation, for people to start thinking about it seriously. 4. Better Headlights 5. K&N installed as standard 6. EBC GFA pads The list can go on and on..... I am sure that the factory is aware of these, but ........ Reepicheep, The force required to brake a belt is very large. But the belt would brake under impact, which can be relatively small. Yes, the spring loaded tensioner is one of the things that improves an XB. Sometimes solving an equation in a computer and theory, is nothing compared to real time testing. I hope that Buell will do their testing for the 1125R. Because so far it looks like that Buell have let the major testing to be done by journalists, producing mixed reviews for the most important bike released the last 10 years(in my opinion) I am sure all of us (Buell fans), would agree to pay an extra $1000 to the retail price of the 1125R, for better parts to be installed to the bike, that would improve it dramaticaly. |
