| Author | Message | ||
     José_quiñones |
Here's the Spyder version of the engine for reference:   (Message edited by josé_quiñones on July 25, 2007) | ||
| Davegess |
I have it on very good authority that Buell speced out what they wanted and selected a vendor to make the engine. They are Buell specs for size, configuration, weight HP torgue, etc. They work long and hard with Rotax to get what they wanted. Did some things that are standard Rotax practice make it into the engine? One would be foolish to not listen to the advice of the folk who design and build these for a living. One would be justified in saying it has some common Rotax features, one woul dnot be justified in saying it has Aprilla features. Any Aprilla appearing things are likely common Rotax practice. Did it take Aprilla leaving Rotax for the Buell to happen? NO it think this project was moving forward long before Aprilla left Rotax. Did Aprilla have something to do with this design? NO. Are there folks at HD who are PO'ed about this and willing to say Buell did not conceive this engine in an effort to denigrate Buells efforts? YES Can't tell you about the oil filter. I am pretty sure you will be able to buy a filter at an H-D dealer. | ||
| Rex |
good thread, and good reading. I cannot imagine Erik and the engineers at buell just taking a motor from the shelf. they are too proud of what they do, and have too much knowledge to not give their ideas to the group. family look in the motors...probably. something already working in current motors to save time and money, why not use. probably some jealousy, which is normal in any company. but the internet is anyones game. read and take what you want. How long has people been writing, give me a fast high powered water cooled motor. now they have. I know I need to start consolidating some bills, payments, to make room for a new bike in the stable. now to order higher bars, hard bags, cool. rex | ||
| Bob_thompson |
I believe Dave has it right. He said "Are there folks at HD who are PO'd about this and willing to say Buell did not conceive this engine in an effort to denigrate Buells efforts" YES...and I must strongly agree after the way I am treated in most pure Harley chrome and leather shops, and its even evident to some extent in their Buell recommended shops also. I'm usually treated like a red headed stepchild if I even mention my Buell. I usually just ask for a corresponding Sportster part which half the time is out of stock. Like I mentioned before in this thread, if HD and Buell are going to be world class, as they should be, they should consider some profound changes with parts and service for their future expansion. To stay dormant got AMF and early HD in trouble before. Lets not see them revisit the 70's. They have a real chance with Buell and the ever expanding sportbike market. They are for the most part a great American company and I wish the the best for the future. | ||
| M2nc |
I think Jose' has posted pictures that illustrate what Dave has mentioned. There are some areas of the two motors above that are similar. Then there are some areas which are totally different. I can see were Buell may have used an off the shelf clutch and transmission. Heck even with improvements HD is still playing catch up, so the Rotax is probably better. But the head orientation and design, intake orientation and design, overall capacities and cooling inlets are totally different between the two motors. I have read where Buell has stated that they have never had this much input in the motor of one of their bikes since the RW750. With HD I read they were only allowed to make changes to the Sporster motor if it did not require tooling changes at the motor plant. If all this is true, the new Rotax built motor is more Buell than the old HD lump. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Here is the other side:   | ||
| Court |
>>>>Buellinamachinashop is wrong on every count except perhaps 1. That is a 100% accurate statement. I suspect there are some unsettled folks, some the victims of intentional misdirection and "bad intel" since they sought to impede rather than advance an exciting project. These are the same people that when I was at M.I.T. working on a Buell project that would have been light years ahead of anyone in the industry, quickly clamped down on the project citing "Over my dead body will Buell ever have anything that HD doesn't" - not only did I save the e-mail but there are a couple folks at HD who are still major pissed that I have all the documentation, including the video that was made when the program was presented at the Harvard Faculty Club and on the same stage with Bill Gates in CA. It's a simple N.I.H. "small minds" concept . . . Harley-Davidson, as Dave Gess properly observed recently, is charging head long toward a cliff. It's evident in the mindset and thinking of some of their top execs who arrived from middle management. The solution to any problem is put fringe or chrome on it. As they head toward this cliff they know neither how to stop nor how to fly. The mindset, at present, is "don't touch nothing. . . it was great when we got it, just keep doing". Harley-Davidson is incapable, subject to current constraints, of building a motor as good as the Helicon. The tales will continue. Like Shawn Webster when he got his ass kicked in 7th grade, you'll continue to hear all sorts of tightly woven tales. The motor share about 0 parts with anything currently made, was entirely a product spawned of Buell thinking and lots of trips to Austria (remind me to tell you a HILARIOUS story about how my wife became an unwitting accomplish in keeping this motor under wraps) Frankly it's a hell of a motor, the product of American ingenuity and world-class manufacturing. Anyone at Harley-Davidson who is not celebrating the success of Buell should be ashamed of the role they are playing in undoing so much good that has been done at Harley. I'd be looking for new friends if someone from HD pumped me full of that much shit. Kudos to the Team at Buell. Court | ||
| Rsh |
This is the press release from BRP Rotax: BRP-ROTAX becomes supplier of a new on-road engine for BUELL MOTORCYCLE Company A 1125cc DOHC V-Twin, liquid-cooled powertrain, exclusively developed and produced by BRP-Rotax for Buell Gunskirchen, Austria, July 9, 2007 – BRP-Rotax, the Austrian affiliate of BRP, is pleased to announce the production start of a new 1125cc motorcycle engine. The new engine, exclusively developed for Buell, will be produced by BRP-Rotax in Gunskirchen, Austria. "BRP-Rotax is leading in developing and producing high performance engines destined to a wide range of recreational markets," said Gerd Ohrnberger, vice-president and general manager, BRP-Rotax. "We welcome the opportunity to team up with Buell on this market-leading motorcycle" he concluded. Buell joins BRP-Rotax's well-renown list of clients like BMW and Aprilia. (Message edited by rsh on July 25, 2007) | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"Frankly it's a hell of a motor, the product of American ingenuity and world-class manufacturing." Not according to the Press Release...."exclusively developed for Buell" To me that reads that they designed it. It doesn't read...Developed by Buell, built by Rotax" If this truely was Buell's idea, and they developed this idea, Rotax wouldn't be taking credit for it. While I agree that this motor wasn't pulled off of some shelf and tossed into a frame. I do believe this is some varient of an already produced and tested motor...otherwise it wouldn't make sense for Harley to buy it. There's cost savings up the "ying ying" for Willy and Co to shell out money for this. Its not done out of the goodness of their hearts. | ||
| Blake |
. . . . . | ||
| Birdmanrh |
Dear Lord.....I think you guys should learn how to ride a bike and then go do it. If rode half the time you spend coming up with the conspiracy issues and crap just for the sake of post count you would not be so negative. Go RIDE!!! | ||
| Blake |
John (inachinashop), I have 40 minutes of recorded interview with Erik Buell that I am transcribing; a major portion of that interview refutes the complete and utter fallacy of any assertion claiming that the Helicon "is some varient (sic) of an already produced and tested motor." The Buell/Rotax Helicon is a completely new engine and Buell played a major role in specifiying its attributes and performance, even its configuration, and in guiding its design and development. Period. Take it to the bank and lock it up. (Message edited by Blake on July 25, 2007) | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
I have the iPhone, I post while riding. Was the iPhone designed by apple or AT&T?? | ||
| Cognac104 |
Buellinachinashop: Interesting information and insights. Your sources must be right up there in Buell.. | ||
| Curtyd |
My GOD man, how do you actually work with any other people? OK, you win, we all believe you, those poor HD techs were denied their shot at success by some money grubbing euro-trash. Do you and your "LOCAL" feel all better now? AMAZING, he admits it's all just talk, rumors and innuendo and still persists in planting the FLAG on his RIGHTNESS. Wouldn't believe it if I hadn't just read it. | ||
| Anonymous |
Cognac, No, actually his sources are completely full of lies, and unfortunately he doesn't know any better. Someone who wants to belittle Buell's effort for some sad self-serving reason. People can make up stories all they want, but this engine was specifically designed for the 1125R by the combined team of Buell and Rotax, and in no way came "off the shelf". Anyone saying that is a liar or a repeater of lies. | ||
| Cognac104 |
Anonymous, I say let's give Buellinachinashop a chance. Maybe he can say who or where he got this information. Would that make it more or less credible then? | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I believe there is overwhelming information from not only the Anonys to other people who are "in the know", trustworthy and credible, to categorically refute what Buwwlinachina is trying to state here. | ||
| Blake |
Don (Cognac), What don't you understand about "utter, contemptible lies"?  We don't give such blatantly malicious lies a second chance around here. | ||
| Curtyd |
Look, my guess is it probably is the local union guys who always think it is better to attack the company than to actually cooperate and be the best darn labor force available at any price. That is where I'd bet most of this attack on the new motor comes from. No one ever called the Aprilia or the BMW an Austrian bike. He read a press release from Rotax and draws a conclusion from it to support his 'Anti Buell'. All companies do it, press releases. It is part and parcel of pushing their image around to pump their business or their stocks up. This is just some guys afraid of losing their seniority based factory job because Buell outsourced a motor. Lucky for us they did, anyone here like the V-Rods? I guess with this reasoning you could say the V-Rod is a PORSCHE. (Message edited by CurtyD on July 26, 2007) | ||
| Dbird29 |
The line and method of argument looks familiar from a few years ago. That guy swore he overheard all the plans at the Hooters. Maybe Buellinachinashop should change his name to BuellinaHooters? | ||
| Gregtonn |
José, After a once over of the two engines I would agree there are some similarities. However I think the differences are much more significant. 1. The Spyder engine uses cams directly over the valves with conventional bucket and shim adjustment. 2. The Spyder uses the more conventional method of driving both intake and exhaust cams with the cam chain. 3. The Spyder uses a dry sump system but requires a remote oil tank. 4. It is obvious that there was a very significant effort to make the Buell engine lighter. These are some of the things I noticed after examining the pictures for less than a minute. Yes these engines do have some similarities. I believe the differences/improvements of the Buell design are much more significant. G. | ||
| José_quiñones |
I agree on all counts, as I said earlier this is a clear improvement over the V990. But it's clearly a Rotax, not that there is anything wrong with that.... | ||
| José_quiñones |
"I guess with this reasoning you could say the V-Rod is a PORSCHE. " I wave at Porsches when I'm riding my Vrod.... By the the way, the Revolution engine is assembled in Kansas City along with the rest of the bike. Parts come from all over the world, but it is assembled in the US. Would people's opinion of this engine change if it was assembled here instead of in Austria? | ||
| Spiderman |
Would people's opinion of this engine change if it was assembled here instead of in Austria? No, they would still find something to bitch about... | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
My girlfriend read this entire thread...she could careless about Buell, Harley or Honda. After she read it all she turned to me and said...."Do these guys really believe that Erik Buell, a Harley employee who can't even post his real name on a message board due to HD rules, is going to tell you the whole truth about what Harley wants and wanted with this bike?" My answer was, "I sure hope so, but I wouldn't expect to see his plans posted on the web anytime soon." Her response.."some of these guys need to wake up, Erik doesn't walk on water, he walks on concrete floors at Harley Davidson" I'm looking forward to reading EB's interview when Blake posts it. Believe it or not, I do like to learn. | ||
| Mikej |
"Maybe he can say who or where he got this information. " I would suspect that the talkers are already identified. Dbird29, BuellInAChinaShop is not the Hooters poster from before. You can hear a lot in a busy crowded place if you can focus your hearing or are in a good audible path. You can hear a lot on a lake too, for example you can hear two people talking on a boat 20+ yards away almost better than you can hear your fishing partner 8 feet away in your own boat. (You can also hear people talking on their lakefront porch while you are out on a boat.) ;) "I wave at Porsches when I'm riding my Vrod.... "  One thing I'm curious about with this new engine is will the Buell people be allowed to fix or repair engine issues on the assembly line? | ||
| Elvis |
Buellinachinashop, Do you even believe what you're saying or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point? I can't see how you can find any logic in some of the things you're suggesting. Let's assume for a moment that Harley calls all the shots and wants to take the cheap route. Wouldn't the cheapest thing to do be to say: "Here Erik. Here is your modern, powerful liquid cooled engine. We like to call it the VRSC." The Helicon engine looks to be one of the best V-Twin motorcycle engines . . . EVER. If that's what happens when Harley makes Erik their bitch and takes the cheapest approach, I hope they continue that route. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Here are some other 'dots' to connect if you're into conspiracy theories: 1. The first Fischer prototype was powered by the Rotax 990. You can still see pictures of it on their website. Then they suddenly switched to the Korean Hyosung engines. What year did this happen and why? 2. Aprilia was bought out by Scooter giant Piaggio in what year? What year did they begin to design their new in-house 1000cc V4 and 750cc Vtwin engines? | ||
| Ceejay |
Look at those two motors, sure they share some similarities, but the placement of things, while maybe only an inch or less here or there are huge differences in manufacturing/tooling. Plus the thought into making those changes is huge. Do you honestly believe that Aprilia would give Rotax a design, come back six months to a year later and say, naw you guys built it bigger than we thought is was going to be? I seriously doubt they are that disconnected. Sure they'll have some similarities-Rotax has been building motors for good while now, and Buell would be ignorant to not listen to their input, but when it comes down to it, Buell is putting up the cash-yes they are owned by HD, but in the end Buell has to balance thier books just like everyone else... |
