| Author | Message | ||
     Buellinachinashop |
Well, I've done some asking around, no I'm not Court, but do know people at HD and when I ask them questions and the same answers pop up, I'm assuming either they all have the same wrong info or all the same right info. But the info that I got was all the same...Take this as you will. 1) Believe it or not, there's some pretty dissapointed folks, both engineers and techs, at Harley who looked at the new Buell power plant as an opportunity, Harley brass didn't. 2) Hold on to your seats. The Rotax motor that is currently being used in the 1125 was not designed for this bike. There was no collaboration between Buell/Harley and Rotax. NONE. This motor was designed for Aprilia. The folks there said no to this motor because of size and weight. It was shelved and then bought by Harley/Buell.  The above statements are all complete and total lies. Your sources have zero credibility. Blake 3) When I asked why Harley/Buell didn't design it.."its all about money, Harley didn't want to spend the money to develop a new Buell motor, basically, they went shopping for an existing plant. They found that in Rotax with the Aprilia motor" 4) when I asked...."who's the mastermind behind the salad bowl scoops???"...."No comment." So, the title of the thread asks what we think of Buell's future. My thought is that if this stuff is true and HD continues to low ball Buell development, I don't see it as rosey. If you think you'll like the Helicon more than the "potato, potato" Harley motors, then you're going to like the future of Buell, because by 2010, you'll see alot more of it. (Message edited by Blake on July 25, 2007) | ||
| Reepicheep |
The forensics don't seem to support the "off the shelf Aprilla" scenario. I am no expert, but here are my thoughts... The power versus weight seems very good... why would Aprilla reject the motor on those grounds? The V angle seems specifically picked to be a consistent with a short wheelbase "trilogy of tech" motorcycle. The drive pulley versus belt tensioner versus swingarm pivot seems classic XB and are fairly fundamental parts of the motor. Why would Aprilla design a motor to fit almost perfectly with existing XB geometry? I think Buell was patenting a few 1125r intake bits a couple years back. Why would Aprilla / Rotax be letting Buell patent parts for a motor they intend to use? Aprilla and Rotax (God bless 'em) are like most makers, and fairly focused on top end power. This motor feels fairly tightly targeted at mirroring the existing XB12 motor power curve up to the XB12 redline, but carrying that line up to a new much higher redline. But it's just speculation.... | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
Reep, I'll ask about those questions, but notice that nowhere was it said that Buell looked at just this motor and got lucky. The term "shopped around" was used. So my thought would be that Harley/Buell did do some homework on what would be the best fit before purchasing. | ||
| Jimidan |
Daveguess sez: Jim, I wouldn't go so far as to call you a troll BUT if you think Buell did something wrong, like not going to all metric on this bike, you simply go on and on about it until somebody slaps you. You think you are right on this and Buell is wrong and you won't accept any other answer. When an ANON says it made sense to them and they had good reason to do it you say that the reason makes no sense to you. If you ran a motorcycle manufacturing facility or even any other business as complicated as Buell your opinion would carry more weight, right now it is your opinion. I agree with some of your assessment, but what you call "poking", I call debate. Of course, I think I am right, or I wouldn't be making the case! What is wrong with that? My question is: Why do you and others try to put debate in a negative light? Where is the implied threat? Anony and I were simply in disagreement about his answer concerning the "mix and match" fasteners decision on the new bike. His reasons didn't make a lick of sense to me then and still doesn't. There were others who moaned stuff like "crap" in the same thread. Disagreement happens in debates. If everybody agreed, there would be no debates...and how much fun would that be? Why do you feel that someone who is making their best case for a change in what they consider an improvement to a bike, has to be "slapped" to get them to stop? You don't have to read anything I write on here...it is your choice to do so. Might I suggest that you and others just skip over my posts when you see them, as they obviously have no benefit to you. What else is this forum for if not to debate Buell issues in a thoughtful and respectful manner, without those in authority resorting to name calling and derisive attacks, and even banning of Buell owners for not toeing the politically correct line? Why does Erik himself ask us in his 'Buell Lines' column in FUELL, "What do you think?", "Do you agree?", "Let us know!", "We want our readers to think of FUELL as a two-way communication device.", and "...we'll need your input.", if he didn't want to know what we thought? Do you really think that Erik believes that asking questions and offering suggestions to a supposedly Buell rep (but who knows now who the hell that was) on a Buell forum on the internet is equal to "poking the bear"? Do you really think Erik would agree with the Anony when he told me that if I didn't like the mix and match fasteners that I should "take up a less complicated sport, like canoeing"? How "thoughtful and respectful" was THAT? What else could Matt King have meant when he wrote, "Whether it is praise, criticism, or anything else you want to share with other Buell owners, we want to hear what you have to say..."? Are all of these request for input, or as they call it, "Back Talk", just more smoke, or was Erik serious? I am betting he IS serious. What are you betting on? Hell, call him up and see, since you know him so well, and let us know. I would suggest that it is not me that is out of step with Erik's philosophy on the need for interaction and feedback with Buell owners, but those that run (ruin) this board and some of the Anonys. Reg is obviously aware of the damage being done by those who purport to have Buell's best interest at heart. Steve A obviously has Erik's philosophy in mind with his thoughtful and respectful posts, as he "cringes" when he reads this stuff. It looks to me like some on here have some issues that they need to deal with, but that is just my learned opinion (I do have a degree in psychology). jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
Buellinachinashop...wow! You got some nads, dude. | ||
| Davegess |
I believe points 2 and 3 to be, as Court would say "inaccurate statements". I can see why some H-D folks would be saying that however. | ||
| Anonymous |
Buellinamachinashop is wrong on every count except perhaps 1. That might explain the utter, contemptible lies that he repeats in his points 2, 3, and 4. Buell and Rotax went into this project as partners, and the Helicon engine's basic design came from early meetings between Erik and Rotax engineering leaders, which was refined in later meetings and documents. (Rotax has told us they never had a more complete spec book for an engine project than they had for the 1125.) Features such as the engine-contained dry sump were entirely Buell conceived, and the entire engine packaging was intended for correct engine weight distribution in the chassis along with having a compact engine with a very over-square bore-to-stroke ratio, something difficult with a narrower V. These assertions and rumors are being spread by bitter people who want to do Buell real damage, and this is simply lying evilness. | ||
| Spiderman |
Buellinamachinashop does your H-D friend just work in the facilities dept? | ||
| Milar |
I wrote: >HD is pretty good about keeping things >personal and giving the illusion of being >a "member of the family." For instance, >Willie G is fairly accessable. Perhaps a >future role model for Erik? jungletym wrote: >Wow, do you think that Erik is not >accessible? Of course not. I'm sorry you misuderstood. When HD was struggling in the 1970's HD management was quite close to the owners. I remember Vaughn Beals as an active rider and rally attendent. As HD became a multinational success, senior management were sometimes businessmen first, riders second (as it should be). Willie G became the "face" of HD. Attending rallies, talking with owners. He did less design work and more PR. I was merely suggesting that if BMC wants to grow AND maintain it's ties to it's owners, one way to do it is to have Erik assume more of the Willie G role as the human "face" of BMC. M | ||
| Spiderman |
well Erik does that and designs some kick ass bikes. (Message edited by spiderman on July 25, 2007) | ||
| Anonymous |
"2) Hold on to your seats. The Rotax motor that is currently being used in the 1125 was not designed for this bike. There was no collaboration between Buell/Harley and Rotax. NONE. This motor was designed for Aprilia. The folks there said no to this motor because of size and weight. It was shelved and then bought by Harley/Buell."} WHoo! THat's a good one!  | ||
| Olinxb12r |
Wow.... What an entertaining thread. I hope what anony just said about the engine is true, but if it isn't who cares. I don't really care if I'm buying a bike with an engine that Aprilla couldn't make work in their chassis. Buell seems to be headed in the right direction in my opinion. They are very patient in the way they release new models, and that helps with the profitability of each model and the overall success of the company. There is no reason to redesign a motorcycle every 2 years unless the company is selling 100 times the volume Buell sells. The market of current Buellers is tiny compared to the potential market of sportbikers out there that wouldn't buy a Buell in the past because of the engines. Now Buell has a bike to appeal to those riders, and if current XB and tuber customers don't like it they can just keep their current bikes or buy something else. I say congratulations to Buell, and thank you for breathing new life in to the very capable XB chassis. I'm not certain as to whether or not I will ever own an 1125, but I will certainly look at one when I'm in the market again. I'll weigh the pros and cons of that bike against the other bikes I'm looking at and make the best decision that I can. Everyone else should do the same, but I think the 1125 will be a turning point in the sales and popularity of the Buell brand. | ||
| Milar |
>well Erik does that and designs some kick >ass bikes. That's today and todays production levels. The title of the thread is: "Some thoughts on the 1125R and Buells future." | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"I don't really care if I'm buying a bike with an engine that Aprilla couldn't make work in their chassis" Aprilia turned it down. Nothing was said about them not being able to make it work. | ||
| Spiderman |
Aprilia turned it down. Nothing was said about them not being able to make it work. Aprilia never seen that engine, It was Buell design from the start... | ||
| Jungletym |
When HD was struggling in the 1970's HD management was quite close to the owners. I remember Vaughn Beals as an active rider and rally attendent. As HD became a multinational success, senior management were sometimes businessmen first, riders second (as it should be). Willie G became the "face" of HD. Attending rallies, talking with owners. He did less design work and more PR. I was merely suggesting that if BMC wants to grow AND maintain it's ties to it's owners, one way to do it is to have Erik assume more of the Willie G role as the human "face" of BMC. Sorry still confused. You are right that Willie G needed to be the face of HD because they were struggling. Buell has been growing the last two years and Erik has not cut back on being the human "face" of BMC. I sold Buells and HD's for three years and honestly I am jealous that I am no longer in that profession anymore. I would have loved to have the 1125R during the time that I was selling Buells. I am excited about the future of BMC. The XB platform spun off 7 different models, how many will the 1125 platform have? The interest in Buell, in my opinion, is at an all-time high with the 1125R. Yes, it is going to bring in new Buell riders, but why wouldn't we as a Buell community want that? Tuber owners interact with XB's owners and so forth, why would the 1125R change that? | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"Aprilia never seen that engine, It was Buell design from the start..." "haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabullsheet"...excuse me. | ||
| Birdmanrh |
Hey Buellinachinashop, Would you mind explaining this bike to me...   | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
Sure.....Looks to me that HD didn't want to spend the time and/or money to engineer, design and test that motor themselves. They also found a vendor for the current Buell motor. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"Buellinamachinashop is wrong on every count except perhaps 1. That might explain the utter, contemptible lies that he repeats in his points 2, 3, and 4" How's #4 a lie? I asked a simple question and not one of the three folks I talked to would say a word on it. All I'm reapeating is what was stated by three people I know at HD, all three are either engineers or techs. I'm not sitting here in my office making it up. If you don't agree, that's your opinion, if you want to get defensive, that' your right. I never said this was right or wrong info, I simply told it like I heard it. (Message edited by Buellinachinashop on July 25, 2007) | ||
| Birdmanrh |
Sure.....Looks to me that HD didn't want to spend the time and/or money to engineer, design and test that motor themselves. They also found a vendor for the current Buell motor. In other words....you have no clue. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
No I don't. No more than I know the truth or lies about the current motor. I posted what I heard. Not what I know as fact or fiction. again...."Take this as you will" | ||
| Elvis |
All I can say is: Thank God Harley didn't force Buell to use a Harley designed and built engine. I have a feeling there were some heated discussions over that one, and I'm glad Erik won. Does it really seem logical that Aprilia would ask Rotax to design a 72 degree V-Twin and then, when it came out larger than their 60 degree V-Twin, say: "No thanks, that's too big."? I'm glad Aprilia decided to make their next engine in-house, because I think that gives Rotax something to prove with this engine. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"All I can say is: Thank God Harley didn't force Buell to use a Harley designed and built engine." Yeah, Lord knows all the current Buell/HD motor's are garbage. If HD wanted to force that issue, the 1125 would be a HD power plant and there'd be nothing Buell could say about it. Who owns who? Think about. Harley allowed another company to put a motor into their bike. Gee, money had nothing to do with that choice. | ||
| Rainman |
I don't care about all of that stuff. I just want to ride the damn thing! | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
Amen! | ||
| Not_purple_s2 |
I don't care if it was designed by elves and runs on pixie farts. It's a 146hp high-reving, lean, mean, bad-ass Buell and I want one. | ||
| Indy_bueller |
I'm sure there are plenty of people at HD that are pissed about the new Buell engine, and would anonymously say anything to bash the 1125R. I was told directly by someone that works for HD that the engine was designed in cooperation between Buell and Rotax. This individual is in a position of needing to know details about it, so I trust what they said beyond a shadow of a doubt. Buell put the specs out for bid. Rotax won the bid. Buell and Rotax designed the motor together. | ||
| Neb25 |
That torque curve is the "real deal" and must have taken some serious hours of R & D to develop. Given the history of how Buell likes their motors to deliver power, it makes sense that they would have specified this motor. | ||
| José_quiñones |
I don't believe this engine was sitting on the shelf and HD/Buell bought it. However, there are a few things in the Helicon engine that betray its Aprilia/Rotax V990 roots. 1. The Buell "Hydraulic Vacuum-Assist Slipper-Action Clutch" sounds very much like the Pneumatic Power Clutch used in the current 990 motor powering Aprilia Bikes and the BRP/Can Am Spyder. 2. The oil filter. I posted this question in another thread and have yet to receive an answer: "The engine uses an internal cartridge as opposed to a spin on oil filter. Was this specified by Buell to Rotax when they designed the engine or did Rotax just stick with what they normally do in this area?" If Buell actually specified the use of an internal cartridge, what were the reasons and does the one HD sells fit or would the one I bought from my local Can Am/Aprilia dealer fit? 3. The on board Diagnostic Information system is similar to the one used in the Aprila Bikes and the BRP/Can Am Spyder. 4. The version of the V990 used in the CanAm Spyder features a belt pulley instead of a chain sprocket. It also has a reverse gear in the transmission. So putting a belt pulley was not that big a deal. This engine is what a lot of current and potential ("I won't buy it because of the HD lump") Buell owners have been waiting for. If it took the fact that Aprilia opted out so we could have it, so be it. This is clearly an improvement over the current V990. I'm sure Aprilia fans will be happy with the V4. If it's not true then there are some of the usual internal politics going on between HD and Buell. Will someone drop this rumour to Motorcyclist? (Message edited by josé_quiñones on July 25, 2007) |
