| Author | Message | ||
     Fmaxwell |
If Buell is SOOO competitive in price and has so many technological advantages, why in the world does it lag so far behind in sales? There are many reasons. Certainly, advertising plays a big part, and Buell's ads are few and far between. So does racing, where the Japanese and Italians put a lot of focus. Many of the sportbike buyers today really believe that they are racers and need to get the bike that is two tenths of a second quicker per lap in the latest comparison testing in Cycle World or Motorcyclist. Erik Buell understands what makes a bike fun on the street. He's not trying to make a race bike with lights. He's making bikes that work great even when you find yourself in the wrong gear after braking in a turn to avoid a deer or a soccer mom on her cell phone. When you make a product designed to appeal to enlightened, intelligent riders who don't think with their gonads, then you're going to have a more limited audience for your product. | ||
| 45_degrees |
Garrett... Sorry you don't know. | ||
| Dongalonga |
Well Im glad you consider me enlightened and intelligent  | ||
| Blake |
"But from what I've heard (just heard, mind you), most consumers wouldn't consider Buell to be in the same category." I disagree. The sales in Europe where folks are paying a hefty premium for Buells would seem to prove otherwise. The bikes are selling. Besides, I'm pretty simple. I pretty much see three categories concerning motorcycle markets, the bargain bike market, the semi-exotic bike market, and the super-exotic bike market. I put Buell XBikes and the late model tube framers in the semi-exotic market category with the BMWs and Ducatis, and Aprilias. They sure as heck don't belong in the bargain bike category. Buell is a relatively new competitor. How would anyone expect them to have developed a reputation like that of Ducati or BMW? The bikes do sell for the price being charged or a bit less when haggling is entertained. Econ 101... yes? | ||
| New12r |
When you make a product designed to appeal to enlightened, intelligent riders who don't think with their gonads, then you're going to have a more limited audience for your product. Nice to see someone gets it. | ||
| Blake |
Jaime, Those are all RWHP (rear wheel HP) numbers. The 102 HP is the published RWHP number I found for the new 1200cc BMW four valver boxer engine, which as you accurately state puts out about 120 BHP at the crank. | ||
| 45_degrees |
Dong... just a friendly notice...  for the post count, I mean. The other stuff is just that... just stuff... not directed at anyone. | ||
| Dongalonga |
Damnit is it 07/08/07 yet because my bike is sold and I want to go test ride something new SOON!! | ||
| Garrett2 |
"garrett, sorry you dont know" what do i not know exactly?? | ||
| Barker |
Dongalonga, We might see something sunday, but it might be months b4 we see one @ the dealer. dont hold ur breath. | ||
| 45_degrees |
Garrett-  What I mean is when the RR based engine comes out (and with the same displacement as the race version @1338 cc), it would logically be called the XB13 with R, RR, S, Ss, etc. on the end. I've noticed in other threads wishing for it as the XB14R. Just an observation. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Here is my post from another thread: "I could build a superbike in my garage with 100% outsourced everything. It would be at 10 times the cost and half the competitiveness of production bikes. Isn't that the trick, though? To get from garage to mass production? Look at Buell generations. The tubers were the first real production ready models. Apples to apples they provided less for more. 1999 X1--MSRP $10,599 2002 X1--MSRP $10,895 2002 M2--MSRP $8,995 2007 XB12S--MSRP $10,495 2007 XB9R--MSRP $8,895 With each iteration, Buell is able to produce a better bike for less money. Much of that benefit is from volume. Much of it is also from outsourcing. Outsourcing isn't the magic pill that would make Fisher or Roehr competitive. Both will have to surpass the economies of scale to cover fixed costs, R&D, etc. The next iteration of Buell will provide the next level of benefit for price. IMHO Fisher and Roehr are not even close to success. Neither is Cycz. Success isn't in producing a motorcycle. Anyone can do that. Success is in producing a motorcycle that will sell in the marketplace, competitively. This is why I believe Buell is on the verge of HUGENESS! Buell has survived the first two generations of production. They sold in spite of them being less competitive than other bikes from a pricing standpoint. The next generation will be competitive in both price and performance. Were I Fisher, Roehr, Cycz or Ducati, KTM, Aprilia, or Triumph, I would be concerned. Very concerned." Keep in mind that with every single generational iteration of bike, the economies of scale improve. It becomes easier and easier for the manufacturer to provide more for less. I don't know what the inflation adjusted price for the 1999-2001 Buells would be, but I presume that they would be close to the $12-13,000 or more market price today. So if the trend continues, I would suspect the new model to take advantage of economies of scale again and provide more for nearly the same cost. I would expect an R&D premium over the 2007 models, but maybe not. As the performance and refinement curve meet the market price curve, I believe sales will increase. Consumers will feel there is better value. More bang for the buck. There will unfortunately be an offset to the "value" price, market demand. If more people become interested in purchasing Buells than were before, supply will become lower (or demand will increase in relation to existing supply). Dealers who previously were inclined to discount off of MSRP to move models faster will not have to. As a result, we may be paying closer to MSRP than before. I didn't pay full MSRP for mine, and I dare suspect few here did either. Part of the reason that the "repliracer" prices are lowest per HP are that they have economies of scale and volume discounts. Discounted labor costs don't hurt either. There is an additional market dynamic at work. Domestic products are perceived to be of lesser quality than their foreign made counterparts. Ask your typical (non-UAW) consumer which product is more durable and better built a Chrysler product or a Honda product, the answer would come back Honda more than Chrysler. Whether this claim has any merit or not is inconsequential. The bias persists. In addition, foreign products are perceived to be more "exotic" than domestic products. Folks will buy a foreign product at a premium even if the performance is not better than what is domestically available simply because it is "foreign". I believe this is part of the reason why Europeans are willing to pay a premium for Buells when Triumphs and Ducatis are available. There Buells are the "foreign" bikes. This is also part of the reason Chinese "Yuppies" prefer Buick and Japanese seek large Detroit metal classics and Elvis. For what Buell provides (and I pray will deliver Sunday), I believe they are very well positioned and priced. | ||
| Jaimec |
Blake, I can't find rwhp for the R1200S, but I do know that it is in a completely different state of tune from the other R1200 models and puts out significantly more horsepower. I seem to recall reading somewhere that it is the most powerful 1200cc non-watercooled twin on the market (and it uses pushrods). Bhp is rated at 122. I believe the other models are "only" rated at 100bhp. The GS might make less peak power in order to get more bottom end grunt. | ||
| 2kx1 |
OK, According to the Motorrad article there willbe two versions of this motor. One air-cooled (120hp) Two liquid-cooled (150hp) Also it states that it was lightly modified XBRR bodywork. So is this motor going to replace th XB motor completely ? Is anyone at homecoming doing any reconnissance for the people on the Badweb? | ||
| Iugradmark |
One of the biggest challenges for Buell is to evolve and grow without totally wrecking the current very loyal customer base. Major changes in direction for relatively new motorcycles means trashing the value, support, and after market development of items that enhance the overall brand. BMW enjoys great 3rd party support for their products because they continue to produce and refine their products over time making the investment worthwhile to owners and the 3rd party providers of accessories. Furthermore dealers can justify investing in training and parts because they know the bikes are going to be around quite a few years. I hope that the new models are additions to the brand and do not create a vacuum for current owners. | ||
| Ducxl |
One of the biggest challenges for Buell is to evolve and grow without totally wrecking the current very loyal customer base. I totally disagree,unless they do something like "Torqueplus Engineering" did. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Polaris and KTM gained economies of scale outsoucing engines. they sold competitive products at a competitive price and grew into the successes they are today. | ||
| Court |
>>>>>Success isn't in producing a motorcycle. Anyone can do that. Success is in producing a motorcycle that will sell in the marketplace, competitively. That's a very accurate statement. Of note is that John Britten, a multi-millionaire during his pre-cycle days while shaping glass art, with all his vision, built a total of 10 bikes and never a single legal one. It's tough to carry on that conversation. someone always wants to throw down about what a genius John was . . . no argument there. But his genius and millions were unable to marshal even the start of a serious effort as anything but a one-off boutique builder. The motorcycle, frankly, is the easy part. | ||
| Altima02 |
It makes sense for Buell to partner with Rotx for their dirtbikes, I mean, you can't make a dirtbike with any HD engine. I predict: Same engines, just modified with XBRR engineering. Maybe only 1200's. Next year, Buell dirtbikes with Rotax engine. This builds up the partnership to eventually have a rotax engine in all Buell models. Just seems to make sense that way. What I want: Rotax engines in all models now!! ~120hp. No need for any more, as long as they keep the torque numbers up. PLease, oh please! | ||
| Cgocifer |
"Ooh but,to actually own a Ducati(which i DO),an MV Agusta,or Benelli,or even KTM." Do you want a cookie or something? Nah, I'd rather own a Buell, an Infiniti G35 Coupe, a custom 1965 Chevelle, an F-150 daily driver and Buell hauler, a kayak, and fly to the Bahamas every year.  | ||
| Pushrodpete |
Didn't see this posted in any of the 97 threads on the new Buells, SO: According to motorcyclenews.com: "At 9am Monday morning we’ll bring you the world’s first video and pictures of the most exciting sports bike we’ve seen since the Ducati 1098. Sadly we can’t say what it is yet as we’re under a strict legal agreement to bring it to you on Monday morning, but rest assured we’ll bring you first look at the most exciting V-twin motorcycle of the year. It looks like nothing else you’ve ever seen, sounds like a proper V-twin racer and from what we’ve seen of the video, this is a seriously good handling new motorcycle. Make sure you click back on Monday morning as we bring you the world’s first pictures and exclusive video of the bike being put through its paces." http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults /mcn/2007/July/jul2-jul9/jun0607newvtwinsportsmoto rcyclelaunchesexclusivelyonourwebsite/?&R=EPI-9253 4 If the "like nothing else you've ever seen" proves correct, that rules out the red Firebolt photo from Motorcyclist... | ||
| Pushrodpete |
OH SHIT. Or its the KTM Venom... Anybody know KTM's unveiling date???? | ||
| Buellshyter |
Is anyone at homecoming doing any reconnissance for the people on the Badweb? I got ya covered, Lars. | ||
| Dongalonga |
I would bet they are not referring to KTM as we have all seen the pictures of that bike for almost two years now. The Buell on the other hand we have not.....well most of us havent!! | ||
| Court |
Don: I'm betting you are right. The KTM is old news, having been "soft intro'd" for the last several years. As time was spent trying to get used to origami . . . well, the rules changed. I'd bet on the Buell. Just a hunch . . . | ||
| Bombardier |
I wonder what the next model will bring. Perhaps all the things that have been wished for on this board. Perhaps not. I wonder if after the new bike is out what will be wished for next. Me........ I think Mr Erik Buell got it exactly right with the XB. Perhaps we will look back and wish for the simplicity of the Ole XB in the near future. | ||
| Teddagreek |
"It looks like nothing else you’ve ever seen" Timing would say Buell? There has been a Rumor of a Victory sportbike? | ||
| Jimduncan69 |
Buellshyter: can you say 1125R !?!?!? | ||
| Dongalonga |
You know they still will forget helmet lock | ||
| Spatten1 |
And the pliers that you get in a $6k Japanese bike's tool kit. |
