| Author | Message | ||
     Thepup |
I said a 45 degree V-Twin,other V-twins are shorter.If they go with any other engine,it better not need valve adjustment,couldn't be done with the current frame without pulling the engine. (Message edited by thepup on July 04, 2007) | ||
| Boxjoint |
"Yeah, what has the engine got to do with underslung muffler, fuel in the frame, and ZTL? Remember, the Sportster doesn't have any of that either and yet Erik was able to engineer all those neat ideas into that antique lump of a motor." I am strictly referring to if they outsource to rotax. The rotax motor has their own wet sump desighn. If that were the case then there would be a fairly deep oil pan down there. That would account for the underslung exhaust and oil in the swingarm. I doubt they would loose the ZTL brake system. The fuel in the frame I would assume would stay but there *might* be an issue with mounting the motor (wich would be counterbalanced and not need the isolation system) . Most ridgid mounted motors in a twin spar have their mounts around the head. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I would hope that Buell would not use the current frames with a completely different engine. That would not make much sense considering that you would need a radiator, it would have a stacked tranny, the countershaft sprocket would come out in a completely different place, engine mounts would be totally rigged, the engine would be much shorter so placement would not be optimized cramming it in a XB frame, etc. | ||
| Dongalonga |
This is true and pup I concede the point on valve adjustments alone...what a friggin nightmare that would be. I guess we will all see in a few days. | ||
| Jwhite601 |
And all us guys who have older xb's could just go to the dealer and order the mounts,engine,radiator,hoses,etc. and update our bikes to 08 specs. Spatten1 you got it all backwards. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Good one Jeff! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Agreed! Why would the next generation have any more to do with an XB than does a tuber? IF there is a new powerplant, EVERYTHING will be developed and engineered around it. New engines provide new opportunities and new challenges. Where the XB provided a solution a problem is created with a new engine. The best concepts will be adapted to service the new platform but altered to meet the technological and engineering requirements. Were you to try to scavenge parts from an XB to install on another bike, virtually none of the really important bits would fit (Frame, exhaust, swing arm). The forks maybe, but not much else. Conversely, there is virtually nothing on an IL-4 that would work on an XB or a TL1000R for that mater. If in fact there is a new engine coming, nearly every single part save the T27 fasteners and the loctite will be redesigned. Count on that! | ||
| Blake |
If it ends up being an XBRR inspired/derived engine, then it may still share some parts with current engines. | ||
| Blake |
Scott (Box), I doubt that Buell will prefer an oil pan over an underslung exhaust. It sure wouldn't be a big deal for a competent engine manufacturer to incorporate a dry sump configuration. | ||
| M1combat |
Well I hope they stick with fuel in the frame. With a redesign of said frame if it's needed but Fuel in the frame is a good idea. How do you figure that the fuel is carried as low in a standard bike Pup? I pull my XB up next to a race replica and their tank is as high as my airbox cover... My fuel isn't up that high. Also... an overhead cam engine doesn't exactly make for a really short engine. Now... If you were to place the oil reservoir somewhere else (like in a swingarm for instance) you would be able to still have the exhaust under there. WRT the overall height of the XB engine... Well it's a long stroke engine. De stroke it and give it OHC's and you have a win/win situation IMO  . In any case... I say keep the fuel in the frame and oil in the swingarm, widen the V angle and rotate it more forwards so the front blocks less air to the rear, and shorten up the lower end of the engine by moving the oil to the swingarm. Oh, and put the radiator under the seat. That all sounds doable but I think it would move the weight bias towards the rear. Not a good thing. Who knows what we'll see... I'm still excited (as long as it's not more colors... I like my black just fine). That's all for naught though . I still think we'll see an RR engine derivative. It just makes a lot of sense IMO. The engine has proven to be pretty reliable on the track so far and there's no reason they couldn't have made more tweeks to it to make it even better. I mean... Why would they have made it SOOOOOOO quiet if it was JUST a race engine? Just a couple of days . | ||
| M1combat |
"If they go with any other engine,it better not need valve adjustment,couldn't be done with the current frame without pulling the engine." Why's that? You can pull either head on an XB with just a simple engine rotation. Takes about 30 minutes if that once you get the bike off the ground. I would think that's just as simple as draining coolant and all that's needed on most other bikes these days... An engine rotation really isn't that big of a deal... | ||
| M1combat |
"If it ends up being an XBRR inspired/derived engine, then it may still share some parts with current engines." And I think the RR engine bolts right into the current frame ;). If that's the case AND they change the geometry... I may just go pick up a new engine. I kinda like the geometry just the way it is. I'm thinking I'd need a new final drive system as well (akin to the '03/'04 upgrade) and of course wiring harness etc, etc... | ||
| Thepup |
"Well I hope they stick with fuel in the frame. With a redesign of said frame if it's needed but Fuel in the frame is a good idea. How do you figure that the fuel is carried as low in a standard bike Pup? I pull my XB up next to a race replica and their tank is as high as my airbox cover... My fuel isn't up that high." You do know that that most of what you think is a gas tank is airbox and most of the fuel tank sits behind the cylinders.?I did some measuring on my 2 bikes the Yamaha carries it's fuel 2 inches higher than my Buell,which is a XB9SL,so a regular XB would hold the fuell at the same height. | ||
| Thepup |
"Why's that? You can pull either head on an XB with just a simple engine rotation. Takes about 30 minutes if that once you get the bike off the ground. I would think that's just as simple as draining coolant and all that's needed on most other bikes these days... " What planet do you live on,rotating the XB engine is as easy as draining coolant?Just when I thought I had heard it all. | ||
| Nicozzzz |
regarding the design : is an old design I think 2004 or before is a show that 1 guy made to proof that he is good in design ...but not more ... have you thought at the different configuration of the bike ... ? the new engine will not be dry carter , so the oil will be keep in the engine base ... so I think probably in the swingarm will finish the liquid for cooling ... or will be a new swingarm ... without any box inside .... position of radiator ... probably on side ... the engine fit the hole frame no other way to mount it so there is 10-15 cm.. in each side to put easlily the radiator and the cooling fan ... like honda VTR this create a new trouble the heat air will finish on the leg or there will be a system that remove the hot air and drive it along the hold fan place and push it back ... I remamber that Erik Buell get a patent for a internal air flow system that are very very nice but this means very large bike in opposition to the actual fashion that want very thiny bikes ... of course more nice to look ... other think an actual liquid cooled engine surely is 20-25 lighter than a hd evolution engine .. this mean that the bike adding radiator weitght can be directly around 180 kgs ready to travel and not 209 of xb 12 s model this will mean a superb handling much more than now I think will be very interesting to see buell answers to all the positioning trouble that liquid cooled engine have (Message edited by nicozzzz on July 05, 2007) (Message edited by nicozzzz on July 05, 2007) | ||
| Spatten1 |
1) The bike will have to hold more fuel than an XB if it no longer gets 50 mpg, so the current frame might not be suitable without an auxilary tank. 2) Nic is right, any newer liquid cooled version would be a much lighter package than the evo sporty engine, and would result in a great handling bike. That assumes that the frame and swingarm can be as light as an XBs when more power is being run through it and it needs beefing up. Buell does seem to excel at chassis design, so I wouldn't rule that advantage out. | ||
| Trojan |
OK, here it is.... underbelly exhaust, narrow angle 1199cc V-Twin making around 150bhp, fuel under the seat, dry sump.......Oh no, it's a KTM!  Another bike that the new Buell will be up against in 2008. Hopefully the new Buell will have as high spec parts and look as contempory and purposeful as this does. | ||
| Blake |
If it looks like that, I'll not be interested.  | ||
| Nicozzzz |
to spatten .. regarding fuell .. is to see the bike , cause if they remove the actually fan hole obviusely they must change little bit the fuell pump thy can gain some space , becoming around 20 lts .. enough to made more than 200 kms consider that this engine surely drink less than "old" sporty evo engine , cause with liquid cooling you get a constant temperature on the engine this help to perform a perfet carburation . this help to have lover emissions and save gasoline .. | ||
| M1combat |
"What planet do you live on,rotating the XB engine is as easy as draining coolant?Just when I thought I had heard it all." And you still haven't "heard it all" obviously... I said that and "draining coolant and all that's needed on most other bikes these days..." Please read an ENTIRE post before you go off the handle Pup... In any case... The XBRR engine is 40lbs lighter than the current engine. I think they'll use it. They wouldn't have to solve the radiator issue with it either and I'd bet that it gets even better fuel mileage once detuned for street use. I think it'll have a full fairing though. I'm ok with that. The engine may need to gain some weight for street use but I'd bet it won't gain anywhere near 40lbs. I'll stick by my prediction. 130 HP, Sub 400lbs wet. I'm hoping for 110lb/ft also... They've obviously figured out how to get plenty of air into it at 45 degrees so that's not an issue either. That's the engine I want. If it's a 60 degree Rotax I'll buy one of those too, but I'd rather see an XBRR derivative. I'm still not entirely convinced we won't see bold new colors again but I AM mostly convinced. Me either Blake... That KTM is fugly IMO. | ||
| M1combat |
"cause with liquid cooling you get a constant temperature on the engine this help to perform a perfet carburation . this help to have lover emissions and save gasoline .." That's not quite true Nicozzzz... The air cooled engine has a very warm combustion chamber. This is what helps with full combustion (emissions) and fuel mileage. The liquid cooled engines use catalytic converters that burn the unburnt fuel after it leaves the chamber. Because of this you use fuel that isn't giving any power. The Buell doesn't have one of those because it burns all of it's fuel in the chamber. The long stroke helps as well because there's more time for the mix to burn. The downside to a very warm combustion chamber is that you can't run as much compression and it does more damage to the components. | ||
| Nicozzzz |
I think no way to use xbrr engine on the road , to much fragile ant to much maintenance to do .. is a race engine and is at limit of the technology that use ... probably to made it usable on the road you must come back to 110 not more hp at cranckshaft .. more simple with a totally reduction of cost to use an actual technology engine , that permit to enter in a new world of race .. and to reach 200 hp in race version .. remember that the 2001 998 ducati that wins wsk with troy bayliss get 189 rwhp and wasen't 1600 cc only 998cc .. this is the way .. to be competitive in the most important race .. and to be in line with their rules ... 1098 sbk is surely over 200 hp | ||
| Trojan |
If it looks like that, I'll not be interested. Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder. KTM make uncompromising sports bikes and have the most 'edgy' and contempory designs out there. Personally I think the bike looks a million dollars and if Buell even get close to being as good as this then I will be putting a deposit down as soon as possible. As for using the XBRR engine, I don't think that will be a long term option if Buell want to get into racing in a big way. Apart from the fact that the capacity wouldn't allow it to compete in Superbike or Superstock racing, the XBRR engine would be totally outgunned in Superbike/Superstock racing. Buell need a completely new engine in order to move forward. | ||
| Nicozzzz |
to m1 combat : why in winter with lower outside temperature, buell engine goes well than in summer (some more power), and you make more kms with the same quantity of gasoline ? in air coled engine temperature of working is directly connected to the carburation .. in LC engine you get ever the same temperature of working this permit to find immediately and to maintain a perfect carburation .. and a perfect combustion ... that reduce the not combusted parts ... and help to save gasoline .. this is what I know .. maybe i'm mistaking | ||
| M1combat |
I agree with the XBRR engine being outclassed in WSBK for sure . I just see Buell branching off. Air cooled and water cooled. Keep in mind that it seems to be Erik's MO that he makes excellent street bikes first, and will go racing as soon as BMC is financially capable of it. I agree that it's a bit of a catch 22, but I think it'll work better in the long run than Ducati's plan. I see a high torque, air cooled V2 being the absolute best solution for the street. We all know the benefits so I won't espouse them here again , but that's the way I see it. On the track I see a liquid cooled V4 being the best. | ||
| Nicozzzz |
leaving the motogp in a side ( are prototype) in the WSBK don't is truly that are better V4 actually there is some circuit where ducati is better some other where honda is better ... with 1200 cc. allowed surely is to discover .. maybe V2 will be so superior that the weight will be raised .... we have to wait | ||
| M1combat |
Well... a cooler combustion charge will make more power. That said... It's not "exactly" about the absolute charge temperature but about the temperature difference (Delta T) between the charge and the combustion chamber. All engines make more power when the outside temperature drops. It's still a fact that a lot of fuel burned by an LC engine is not burned in the combustion chamber. It's burned by that cat converter. You would think that a more efficient combustion could be had with an LC engine but it just isn't the case. That's why they need to use cat converters (and even secondary air injectors...). That said... I would imagine that across the meat of the power band they probably aren't using their cats as much as in the lower RPM range (per revolution anyhow). | ||
| Jaimec |
Why assume a liquid cooled motor would have a wet sump? IIRC, the water cooled engine in the Aprilia is a dry sump design. And that's built by Rotax... same as we're speculating here. | ||
| Elvis |
Oooops, sorry, wrong thread. I thought I was in the rumor thread, but I appear to be in the "arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" thread. . . . I may be on the wrong thread, but at least I know I'm on the right web-site. | ||
| Nicozzzz |
hey we are behind the rumors .. we are working on the new bike .. we are building her on this post .. let us working  |
