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Blake
Posted on Sunday, March 17, 2019 - 07:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Shoggin,

So the USA legislated that Japanese car manufacturers produce more fuel efficient cars back in the 1970's during the OPEC oil takeover?

Huh. I did not know that.

Silly me figured it was consumer choice and market forces that compelled improved fuel efficiency and smaller sleeker vehicles.

Fleet regs aren't as effective for the tech dev as you imagine. How's that Chevy Volt doing?
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Ciemny02
Posted on Sunday, March 17, 2019 - 11:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It will take longer for USA to adapt, comparing to Iceland for sure.
But this is the unstoppable change.
ICE engine technology is old.... More than a century old. Not much has changed since the first combustion engines. Idea is the same. Time to move forward, especially when there are more eco-friendly and cheaper solutions.
Someone will say that batteries manufacture and utilization process is not green at all. It is definitely not perfect but technology is moving fast forward and have much lesser impact on the environment compared to old black oil and its extraction from the sea bottom etc and it's further burning.
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Stevel
Posted on Sunday, March 17, 2019 - 11:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I am amazed by the poor education level of young folks these days. Not just in the sciences, but general education, like civil studies, history and basic geography. Yet as illiterate as the general public is, it is amazing how quick the public is to take advantage of a good deal. The Government does not ever have to promote something advantageous. Good shit promotes itself.

So if the Government is promoting something, avoid it like the plague. The Government never drives innovation, it usually inhibits it. Politicians are scientifically illiterate and yet they are responsible for making our laws. How sick is that! So when responders on these forums start talking green, beware. They are usually not correctly informed.

(Message edited by steve-l on March 17, 2019)
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Shoggin
Posted on Sunday, March 17, 2019 - 01:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Blake,your point is valid. So is mine.

You are forgetting about a little American gov't entity called the EPA. They legislate MPG, and emissions goals for the manufacturers to meet.

And a current thing called EURO-5.

And in this state... C.A.R.B.

Etc.
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Ciemny02
Posted on Sunday, March 17, 2019 - 01:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Stevel,
I can clearly see you are bit narrow minded. Go and expand your horizons first. Travel, visit, before stating absurds like the one about 20miles of paved roads in Iceland.. It is derogatory ignorance. After gathering some experiences and more broad knowledge of subject, without mixing politics into it, think again.
First of all I would recommend to visit my beautiful second biggest town in Poland. The place I had to run away from after 30+ years of constant sickness, absence in school and later work. After thousands of euros spent for the "best" doctors, most educated pulmonology professors etc, after hundreds of swallowed pills and so on and so on. I was told I have severe allergies and asthma, so called modern diseases.
None of this educated idiots did not mention one simple fact: polluted environment.
I started to look for solution hopelessly on my own. First some alternative medicine, more caution diet a lot to talk about. No expected effect at all. When I was in the moment where 20min of appointment with best doctors cost me 100$ I said "enough".
I made one very firm step: I changed environment for the cleanest possible. That's how I ended in Iceland. Now after few years here I am the great example of a healthy person. I haven't swallowed any pill for years and last year I was out of work for two days due to some sort of flu.
So come and visit my town in winter, when all these cars and burned coal ruin the air to suhh extense, that living there is becoming dangerouse. Where new born kids end up with new types of allergies, pulmonology problems etc.
Iceland is clean and pure on itself. This kind of drastic changes, like electric cars is more needed in other parts of the world, like Poland for example. I am happy though that I live in a smart country with clever approach for the future and health.
Iceland boosts the longest life expectancy. Americans on the contrary.

(Message edited by ciemny02 on March 17, 2019)
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Mnscrounger
Posted on Sunday, March 17, 2019 - 01:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"ICE engine technology is old.... More than a century old."
Ciemny, your right in that I expect at some point in my life I will own an electric or hybird vehicle, and it will probably serve me as well or better than any other for the purpose I bought it.
Stevel is also right, "Good shit promotes itself.", but I have one caveat to add.
When something works well, there is no rush to replace it. I still grin when I pull the enrichener knob, and hit the start button on a 1941 Ford 9N. After sitting all winter in a pole shed, the engine fires in about three revolutions. The pure simplicity of purpose in the product design, and minimalist engineering in the execution, retrospectively is a work of art.
(Though when introduced it was actually quite tech splashy to get all those features of three point hitch, live PTO, hydraulics, and electric start in a tractor that small, for only $585.00)
There are lots of more powerful, comfortable and versatile tractors out there, but why spend the money on them when what I have serves the purpose?

Stevel's reaction to government and green technology in his last statement to me seems a bit knee jerk, (I took it as if the government promotes it, it must be bad.) but I also see his point about those who know nothing driving polcy. I would like to remind that some of the greatest technology advances came from a governments, (usually ours), desire to accomplish a goal. I'm referring to the space program, satellite communications and material science advances. They were often conceived and intended for military strategic advantage, but often found their way into mostly benign civilian use.
Personally I am a fan of the idea of truly green unlimited energy. (Though that has yet to be realized fully)
I do look forward to technology options in transportation based on market forces,and lifestyle choices, not government mandates.
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Gregtonn
Posted on Sunday, March 17, 2019 - 02:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

ICE engine technology is old.... More than a century old.

It is much older than that. The first documented ICEs used gunpowder as fuel.
There have been huge changes since then.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_inter nal_combustion_engine

In terms of practical use for transport the electric motor was ahead of the ICE.

https://www.eti.kit.edu/english/1376.php

In terms of "green" potential electric vehicles have as many issues as ICEs.
Materials for batteries and motors in EVs are most often strip mined. Ore processing is also required and again is a very dirty process.
While extraction and processing of oil is by no means a clean process it is cleaner and has fewer dirty byproducts and waste and used less energy.
Then there are the power generation and electricity distribution requirements. Most people don't notice all the substations and transformers in our towns and cities.
Add to that solar panels and wind generators, which at this point are not efficient enough to provide the power to self replicate, and you have a very ungreen replacement for the ICE.

That is not to say we should not continue to improve EV technology, we just need to continue to develop it using intelligent solutions.

G
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Ciemny02
Posted on Sunday, March 17, 2019 - 03:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Gregton, nice facts. Thanks.
Plenty of information but I was left with the feeling of you being a litle biased : )
Consequences of errors during oil extraction on oil platforms, oil spills into the ocean, leaks from cargo ships and fires of drilling shafts are far greater and harmful than evaporating brine ponds on the sun. You did not mention also that reserves of oil will last around 50years from now if we won't increase the oil extraction.
Second and that's a big difference, battery once made works. There is no such significant harmful byproducts like in the ICE.
I am not taking only about vapors and fumes and CO2 emissions but also, oil changes etc.
I do not know how it works there on your land but here everybody is very happy that government introduce gently this philosophy.
Iceland is situated on the edge of the world. Fuel is expensive. Why spend stupid amount of money on something which can be easily replaced by modern solution which cost nothing in a long run.
Of course, no thrilling sound and vibrations but I take torque instead and clean air.
I am not sold completely yet. We still need many years to go fully electric. I am not owning EV and not planing to in next decade. But definitely a combination of EV and ICE. I am sold on PHEV hybrid.

Sincerely Bart

(excuse me for edits. My English has limitations.)

(Message edited by ciemny02 on March 17, 2019)

(Message edited by ciemny02 on March 17, 2019)

(Message edited by ciemny02 on March 17, 2019)

(Message edited by ciemny02 on March 17, 2019)
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Gregtonn
Posted on Sunday, March 17, 2019 - 04:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I was left with the feeling of you being a little biased

I suppose I am, having been raised on a farm and worked in other locations where the nearest electric outlet was miles away.
In those places a spare can of fuel will usually get you back to where you need to be.

G
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Stevel
Posted on Monday, March 18, 2019 - 04:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Wow Clemny,
You call me narrow minded? I have lived all over the world. Not visited, lived. I did this for many years. Nobody wants oils spills and pollution and it is unfair to point to all those ills and blame it on fossil fuels. Consider that fossil fuel is stored solar energy and as I stated before, it is the gold standard for energy storage safety and density. Whatever comes after oil must meet or exceed that standard. Renewables cannot replace fossil fuels. It isn't possible. The world's energy requirement far exceeds the capability of all the various sources of renewables by huge margins. Iceland is not an examble the rest of the world can follow. It is unique.

Yes the ICE is more than 120 yrs. old. You have to ask yourself why it is still the engine of choice after all these years. I can list all the reasons why that is so, but the answer is simple. There is nothing better at the moment. No matter what governments want or even insist on, no body is willing to commit economic suicide to be more green. It isn't ever going to happen. Keeping food on the table and a roof over your head will always carry the highest priority. Being an idealist is not a crime, but being impractical is, when it wastes valuable resources.

Nobody really wants to address the real issue. The actual cause of all these problems is over population. We are too many and we are outstripping the earth's resources, but this issue is too unpleasant, controversial and unpopular to address. No worries though, if we don't deal with it, mother earth will. Brace!
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Ciemny02
Posted on Monday, March 18, 2019 - 07:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Stevel,
I understand your approach but the change is inevitable. I would say that your thinking is more idealistic than mine : )
You would like to keep oil as it is and ICE engines as there is nothing better atm, but it is impossible. Like you said: overpopulation. I completely agree on that fact. But oil is dissappearing and will be dissappearing faster and faster each decade. There is no other way. Only what we can do is to find different source of energy. We cannot reduce the amount of people. Oil will be gone anyway.
Iceland is a difficult to compare. 100% of its energy today comes from renewable sources.
But not only Iceland is on the good way.
Sweden is going 100% electric also. They are going to skip fossil fuell next decades.England the same (IMHO England will be next. There is a project going on in Iceland to build power lines on sea bottom between Iceland and UK. Energy will be sold to UK and UK will be distributing it further to EU. Also Germany.
Germany are technically able to supply 78% of country power need with renewable sources of energy.
Interesting article.

Peace out

https://www.clickenergy.com.au/news-blog/12-countr ies-leading-the-way-in-renewable-energy/

(Message edited by ciemny02 on March 18, 2019)
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Jaimec
Posted on Monday, March 18, 2019 - 03:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Part 2:
https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/fuell-is-more-t han-an-electric-motorcycle-company-part-2
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Dstro
Posted on Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - 03:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Stevel, come on, man. Is this the hill you want to die on? "...fossil fuel is the gold standard for energy storage safety and density?" It is a silly hill.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

Look, two seconds of a google search yields a basic reference of things with higher energy densities. By your logic, the next thing we should make our cars run on is probably melted ice cream. Carbohydrates have a higher energy density than gasoline, and the worst damage done by an ice cream spill is probably an ant problem or a sad child. I'm far too lazy to make a list of a fraction of the harm done to people and environment alike by fossil fuels. But, nobody's been burned to death by ice cream, as far as I know.

And are you suggesting that it is unfair that people blame oil spills on the fossil fuel industry? ...Did I read that right? Please follow up on that train of thought; I'm thinking of cancelling my cable and could use the entertainment.

Now, the next thing that is blatantly wrong: "The world's energy requirement far exceeds the capability of all the various sources of renewables by huge margins." If you are saying that renewable energy sources don't make enough energy to meet people's needs, I've gotta ask: have you heard of the Sun? Our Sun? Are you saying that humanity uses more energy than the Sun? I'm pretty sure you don't but just to cover my bases, do you realize that isn't possible for humanity right now?

On the other hand, if what you're saying is that the current amount of energy produced by renewable resources is not sufficient to sustain humanity, then you're right. Which is kinda like calling the Wright brothers a-holes because they weren't making 737's. Do you know what the most common photovoltaic material used is when making basic solar cells? Silicon. Which, when you get down to it, comes from sand. It's dirt. People are making energy from dirt. The foundation of this technology is literally dirt-cheap. Do you really think that people won't be able to make money supplying a demand that is constantly growing while starting from dirt-cheap? Or do you think there's more oil than dirt?

The big obstacle with electric transportation that you are pointing out is making renewable energy portable. Which is where batteries come in. You know, that also-cheap thing that powers your smoke detector, your remote, your pacemaker, your flashlight, your motorcycle, and about a million other things in your life? You can't think that it didn't take innovation to make the battery as versatile and prevalent as it is today. You should also know that that research is ongoing. You ALSO also know that batteries transmit energy better than gasoline, right? Even though gas has a greater energy density, about 70% of that energy is spent making heat that we don't use instead of forward mechanical motion? This is why people are focusing on extending EV ranges by trying to make bigger batteries that charge quickly - at the moment, an electric motor is ridiculously more efficient in terms of "energy in" vs "motion out". Ironically, this is why there are people developing thermoelectric materials with the aim of making electricity from the waste heat your ICE makes.

The real issue is overpopulation, you're right; it's basic math. If it weren't for all those other people, we would have more natural resources than we could ever possibly consume. Like our fathers, and their fathers, and so on and so forth. Woe is us for not having the luxury of having more than what we will need. As far as I can tell, this is a tough one to solve without killing, sterilizing, or simply letting countless people die by inaction. The trouble is who gets to choose. I'll just keep hoping that the battery thing works.

In my opinion, the mindset of "There is nothing better at the moment...It isn't ever going to happen" is exactly why so many great concepts have difficulty becoming realized, and is exactly the thing that makes me so surprised you would ever own a Buell or EBR. You certainly don't seem to appreciate the thought and innovation that goes into an electric motorcycle, and I hope you never buy one.

Now, I know I've been mean, but another few seconds of button clicking gave me a great reference on material that is pretty great as far as educating yourself about solar power at the least, should you ever admit you don't know everything and actually want to learn something (I hope you do). There are a lot of things I don't know, and I find it pretty informative. Here's the abstract:

"We ask and answer a series of questions regarding the potential of the sun to supply energy to the world. The questions are drawn in large part from the U.S. Department of Energy Office of Basic Energy Scienceís recent report on Basic Research Needs in Solar Energy Utilization (BES 2005). The answers are given in a format suitable for a lay technical audience, and are supplemented by detailed calculations and comprehensive references."

Here's the link; it's at least a decade old, but the sun probably hasn't changed that much:

https://www.sandia.gov/%7Ejytsao/Solar%20FAQs.pdf
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Stevel
Posted on Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - 06:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Dstro,
Thank you for the references. They are pretty good and worth reading. I suggest you read them again.Your references did not prove my statement wrong. With the exception of radioactive material and compressed hydrogen, fossil fuels have the greatest energy density and specific energy.

You clearly have never visited a silicon wafer factory. They are NOT green, Yes, silicon does come from sand, but the wafer process involves some extremely hazardous chemicals and their disposal is seriously problematic. It is for this reason most wafer manufacturing has moved to the third world where disposal restrictions are much less strict. A few years ago solar cells were 5% efficient and had a less than 5 year effective life span, but even today after many improvements in efficiency and cost have been made, today's cells are advertised at 18% efficient and then only when new on a perfect day at noon in Phoenix. We have a long way to go before solar power generation can come close to meeting the worlds energy needs. Even combined with all the other renewable energy sources, we are no way close enough to eliminate the use of fossil fuels, especially for vehicle use. A further consideration is the amount of water required by these renewable energy sources. Water will be a very serious concern in the very near future.

You have not read all my inputs to this thread. I clearly stated in my first response the superiority of electric vehicles. Please reread. I am also a proud owner of a Segway since 2011. I really like electric......I do! However, it is this experience that has led me to my opinion. Existing battery technology is many, many years away from being a direct replacement of the ICE and fossil fuel. How many of the readers on this forum has had serious issues with LiPO4 batteries? It is really good thing that our bikes are not used in cold weather. LiPO4 batteries go to hell in a hand basket below 10C.

I must repeat myself here. All governments are parasitic. No government ever has created any innovations, ever. All innovations happen through the efforts of individuals and many times to pure luck. The mother of invention is need and opportunity. It can never be mandated by law. Although idealism is not illegal, it often gets in the way of common sense. Consider the example of Solindra. That disaster is what happens when the government thinks otherwise.
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Mnscrounger
Posted on Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - 02:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"The mother of invention is need and opportunity. It can never be mandated by law."
Agreed, but we have three privately owned companies in the USA launching satellites, cargo, and soon people into space. While you're right in that it was demand that drove the innovation, much of the work they base their innovation on came from what was once described a government folly boondoggle to put a man on the moon. The side benefit to that space race was all the tech spillover into our daily lives.
While I too grumble about safety and environmental regulations interfering with my ICE powered fun, the reality is mandating those things drove design, and got us cars that can do 150 mph all day long with the cruise control and A/C on. They can also do that with a 200,000 mile plus service life. Those were elite supercar speeds at one time, and the few that could do it got 8-10 MPG, and were adrenaline filled white knuckle rides.
Lets look at the handgun industry for another example. They were perfectly content making 40, 60, and even 100 year old designs before the 1994 crime bill limited magazine capacity to 10 rounds. Faced with this new artificially imposed limit,their legacy high capacity designs were rendered essentially obsolete overnight. Manufacturers went back to the drawing boards out of necessity. Now that they were thinking all new rather than just slick improvements, or "nickel plated customs" of their legacy designs, they also employed new manufacturing methods. The side benefit, (or consequence, depending on your view of guns), they got smaller, more reliable, and more powerful than before the mandate.
Government isn't always the best source for innovation, but they do occasionally, ( deliberately or accidentally), drive it.
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Jaimec
Posted on Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - 02:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"Adapt or die."

And I guess I shouldn't be surprised the topic has gone WAY off my original intent of discussing Erik's latest venture.
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Dstro
Posted on Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - 03:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Stevel, I literally work in a ďsilicon wafer factoryĒ as you put it- which tells me that you donít. I promise I know more than you on the subject.

Sorry to gloss over your most recent response, Iím busy during the day. If I have time, Iíll try to address your claims again tonight. Other folks should feel free to take my place though! Plenty of corrections to go around.

Saying that you like electric vehicles because you have a Segway sounds like saying you like MotoGP because you have a Vespa.

It sounds like you stopped considering societyís technological progress about 20 years ago. I assure you that it has gone on regardless of your notice.

I know the links I provided are good references and worth reading. It is why I put them there. I suggest you read them for the first time. Arguing with you is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what you do, the pigeon is just gonna crap on the board and strut around like they own the place anyway.

Not sure whether your government comment was directed as a response to me or the forum in general, but I think that is convoluting a whole different can of worms, so Iím not going to comment there.

Feel free to cherry-pick parts of my response to misrepresent in your reply as you see fit.
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Dstro
Posted on Tuesday, March 19, 2019 - 03:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Sorry Jamiec! Didnít go to read this thread with the intentions of getting on a soapbox. Just not a fan of ignorance when voiced so loudly. Next thing you know people are gonna start thinking vaccines cause autism! I think that Fuell has a good and pragmatic approach to the market, so I am cautiously optimistic. And Iím sure the price point is going to be a lot closer to the mark than HD!
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Gregtonn
Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - 12:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Dstro,

I spent three years designing machines to manufacture silicon wafers.
Some of the gases used are known as "one step" gases.
Why? Because they are so toxic.

G

Maybe someone needs to start a new thread.
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Gregtonn
Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - 12:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Dstro,

I also suspect that factory is the one built a few hundred yards behind my exes house in Oregon.
My son paid for his college tuition working there.

G
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Willmrx
Posted on Wednesday, March 20, 2019 - 01:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This thread has been very informative and I have enjoyed reading very smart peoples opinions. I sincerely mean that! But, the 8th grader in me feels this way....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbJDjNLzv8U
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