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Hughlysses
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2017 - 10:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

http://www.carblogindia.com/hero-hx250r-launch/

EBR supposedly had this bike to the ~99+% completion stage at the time they entered receivership. All Hero had to do was take the plans and test mules back to India and do a little fine tuning. Now, ~3 years since the prototype was shown, Hero has given up trying to bring the bike to market.

Important safety tip- Make sure you really know WTF you're doing before you try to screw over your technology partner or it will bite you in the a**.
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Crusty
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2017 - 11:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If you f**k with the bull, you get the horn. Technologically speaking. He, he, he...
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Ducbsa
Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 05:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I see a badwebber commented well on the linked story. IMHO, Hero was unscrupulous in buying 49% ownership from EBR in bad faith with a strategy to shaft Erik when they thought the time was right. It appears that he suspected as much and was prepared legally and IP-wise. I assume the bankruptcy papers that EBR filed so quickly took time to prepare and were sitting in a desk drawer ready to go.
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Court
Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 07:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


quote:

“We at Hero MotoCorp don’t support just showcasing concepts but bringing products into mass production. It takes time to come up with something completely new, you can just predict a little bit. Within the next two years, we will come up with a lot of new models. You can expect news on the scooters, you can expect news on the commuters between 110cc and 150cc and even beyond. So, I think we will keep you guys from the media quite busy for, let’s say, next 12-18 months”, he added.




That just does either true or sincere . . .

Frankly . . . HERO blew it.
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Mnscrounger
Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 12:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"I see a badwebber commented well on the linked story"

Thank you for the kind words Bruce.
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Ducbsa
Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 06:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Former neighbor in Apple Valley!
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Midknyte
Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 09:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

What pieces or IP could they be missing that after 2 (3?) years of trotting this thing out on stage they can't fill in?

https://youtu.be/HuxJqIs2a-Y

(Message edited by midknyte on December 19, 2017)
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Snacktoast
Posted on Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 10:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Frankly . . . HERO blew it.

This sums it up quite well.
That bike was nearly turn-key at shut down.
What a waste.
After all that transpired, I'm glad they won't make a cent off of the work that went into it.
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Ducbsa
Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2017 - 04:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"What pieces or IP could they be missing that after 2 (3?) years of trotting this thing out on stage they can't fill in? "

That is a mystery; Hero makes millions of bikes for families to ride on, so they know how to tool up for production.
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Stevel
Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2017 - 05:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

My "gut" says that it wasn't IP issues that prevented the new models coming to market. I suspect that the necessary manufacturing technologies are not available in India. India is very much 3rd world. Things we now take for granted like aluminum pressure casting don't exist in India. This technology is very expensive to implement. EBR's designs require the newest tech. Add to that the volatility of the Rupee in relation to first world currencies and the problem becomes very risky indeed. If the required tech has to be imported, manufacturing and sustainability would suffer.
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Ducbsa
Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2017 - 05:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Developing the supply chain, including sub-suppliers, seems like would have been done in parallel with design, to make it compatible with what was available. Maybe it was for Hero to do and they dropped the ball.

The way BMC and EBR got all the pieces subbed out across the globe impressed me. When I had a plant tour just before the XB's came out, the guide said they didn't make a single component in East Troy and for instance, the motor was "just a part number to them". From the assembly video, it does look like they assembled 1190 motors, so maybe 1125s, too.
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Hughlysses
Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2017 - 07:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I was thinking yesterday- while the failure to bring the HX250R certainly seems like justice for Hero, it probably hurt what’s left of EBR as well.

If this bike had made it to market, it might have provided good advertising for what EBR could do and increased their chances of finding a buyer to continue the brand.
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Midknyte
Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2017 - 01:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Maybe, hopefully, other parts suppliers took a hint from what they did to Buell and declined to do business with them...
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Mnscrounger
Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2017 - 05:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Given the way Hero is spinning the story, if it had made it to market, I bet they would have buried ANY indication it came from EBR. According to Erik in a 2015 interview, there were a lot of designs on the cusp of, but not in production. I have no idea what product designs LAP still has that are of value, but if they won't produce, they diminish in value every day. I still hope one day they just give up and give it all back to Erik to do with what he chooses. He seemed to be the source of magic in the elf dust anyway.
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Court
Posted on Wednesday, December 20, 2017 - 10:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

HERO makes more bikes in a day than Harley-Davidson makes in a month. If I recall . . when EBR hooked up with them . . .they were making 34,000 bikes a day. I am led to believe that number is somewhat higher now.

No clue if that's accurate . . . but the stats are all public.
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Stevel
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2017 - 09:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Court,
You are correct, but look at the models they make. None of those use modern manufacturing processes.
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Jaimec
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2017 - 09:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

As far as "Large Motorcycles" (250cc or better), I understand Royal Enfield is the biggest motorcycle manufacturer in the world. Also the oldest continuously operating motorcycle company.

https://newatlas.com/royal-enfield-worlds-top-sell ing-big-bike-indian-motorcycle-market/50859/

(Message edited by jaimec on December 21, 2017)
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Hughlysses
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2017 - 09:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I have a big question regarding Hero. All their models up to the EBR venture were powered by old Honda engine designs manufactured under license. They broke up with Honda shortly before courting EBR, and their license was set to expire some time about now. One of the big reasons they wanted to partner with EBR was so that they could develop new, in-house engines.

Since all that fell apart, what are they going to use to power their motorcycles?
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Greg_e
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2017 - 10:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Who cares what they use for engines at this point. But they will probably buy a chinese clone from something like a Yamaha TTR125 and clone it again in an even cheaper way.
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1313
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2017 - 11:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hugh,

I'm surprised you are questioning this. Maybe because you are now retired you are slipping? ; ) Obviously I haven't followed this further, but this press release also included Engines Engineering from Italy.

Like I said, I haven't followed up on this, but I guess we could hope that with what Hero did to EBR, Engines Engineering might pull an 'MV Agusta' on Hero.

Anyways, that is what I *assume* Hero will do for engines...
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Rsh
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2017 - 06:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

There are quite a few engine design houses out there. Some have manufacturing ability (Rotax) and other's come up with a design and shop for a builder in China and Italy for example.
I don't think Hero will have trouble finding engines.
Hero currently not being able to follow through with the EBR designed HX250R is not going to put them out of business as most EBR affectionado's would like.
Hero now sponsors a golf tournament along with having Tiger Woods as a spokes person, making Hero look like good guys. Crazy world.
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Mnscrounger
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2017 - 07:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Rsh: As the biggest motorcycle manufacturer in the world, I don't expect Hero to be one bit concerned about me, Badweb or anyone else badmouthing them. HD didn't give two bits about what Buell owners thought either, and they are an order of magnitude smaller than Hero. That won't stop me from expressing my viewpoint about their business ethics.

Disclaimer: the following is based on NO inside information, it is just a rant.

I can almost excuse Harley, as they were/are in a money crunch, and needed to circle the wagons to survive. I would argue discontinuing the belt buckles and drink coasters would have saved them more money, but that's for a different and older rant. Hero had money to burn, and despite that sold empty promises to EBR in exchange for hard work. "They were coming to America, and EBR was going to be the distributor for all their product lines." ( in hindsight just so much B.S.)

Unlike HD, Hero didn't hit a financial wall with declining sales and falling stock prices. Hero financially undermined their tech partner, and then lit a fuse to try to implode them and take over. It wasn't a happy ending for EBR, but I'm glad it also blew up in Pawan Munjal's face, and he got NOTHING for his money.
Until I have the whole true story, from a reliable insider, in print for me to re-tell accurately,that's the story I'm going with.
Rant off: (now a reminder to Court) Sounds like another book is in order.
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Hybridmomentspass
Posted on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 12:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"I would argue discontinuing the belt buckles and drink coasters would have saved them more money, but that's for a different and older rant."

Why?
Actually I'd think thats where they make a ton of their money.
Cheap-made Chinese items they can sell to ANYONE.
The bikes, themselves, arent cheap, these items are.
Not everyone can afford a new $20k bike, but who doesnt have twenty bucks to spend on their mancave or a gift for a friend/relative?

As for this - odd they wouldnt finish it. BUt I dont see how them finishing it would have ANY affect on current EBR or by not finishing it that it would have a negative impact on HERO
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Upthemaiden
Posted on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 07:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I agree, HD is a t-shirt company that happens to also sell motorcycles. I think financially they'd probably do better selling kitchen towels, belt buckles, toilet paper roll holders, and garden gnomes, but of course the motorcycles have to be there for the other items to be worth anything.





As far as the differences between Hero and HD, I agree HD was having a harder time financially, but I've never really held a grudge against them for saying they couldn't afford to make Buells, it was purely the way they handled it. Supposedly they refused to let the company live on without them because they were tied up in HD financing, but otherwise Buell could've been sold to another company, or even back to Erik, instead of them paying so much to close the doors and take his name with them.
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Jaimec
Posted on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 09:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Don't forget, Adventure bikes are all the rage right now, and HD shot themselves in the foot by ending the Ulysses along with the rest of Buell. When that bike was available my local dealer even told me it was the hottest bike they carried and they couldn't keep them on the floor!
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Hughlysses
Posted on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 09:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Killing Buell sure seems like it was a very expensive permanent “solution “ to a short term problem.
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Greg_e
Posted on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 09:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

HD could make a decent adventure bike with the XG750 engine and a new frame or tweaks to the frame and suspension. Nothing stopping them except their legacy.
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Hybridmomentspass
Posted on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 10:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

To add, since we're in the Christmas/holiday time - There are multiple HD stores that I know of in an hour radius that have opened up AGAIN this year - they sell clothing and home good kind of stuff. A few parts, some chrome bits, but its just a retail outing.

So, yeah, I disagree with the statement that dropping those line of things would have made them better financially.
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Crusty
Posted on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 12:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

While I think that the MoFoCo could make a decent Adventure bike based on the XG 750, I think that if they did, almost nobody would buy one.

Just like the XR1200, XR1000, XLCR, etc.
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Rsh
Posted on Friday, December 22, 2017 - 01:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I agree, I believe these days especially, HD makes more money selling there "life style" merchandise than they do selling bikes.
This merchandise is not cheap, the markup must be substantial as the majority of stuff is made in China.
Whenever I used to visit my HD dealer for parts or service on the Buell's, there were always people visiting from all over the world buying large quantities of merchandise to take back home with them. I would imagine this happens all over the country at the more popular HD dealers.
A number of these people/groups would also rent bikes from Eagle Rider and wanted to look the part while getting the "life style" fix while visiting America and more so in this case Hollywood.
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Tootal
Posted on Saturday, January 06, 2018 - 12:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Back in the 2000's I went to the Czech Republik to visit my uncle. I took a train from there to visit a friend in Berlin Germany. I did go to the HD shop in Berlin and bought some T-shirts. Although I knew enough German to get what I wanted it was quite obvious I wasn't German. The lady waiting on me asked me if I'd rather speak English. She was the owner's wife and spoke perfect English. She asked if I was American and I said yes so after getting my shirts she threw in a coffee mug and some key fobs. What was very different from American dealers is that this one had a bar as you walked in the front door. To get to the dealership you had to walk out of the back of the bar. They had Miller on tap!

So I myself am guilty of owning way to many HD t-shirts. I will say none of them are new and are all wearing out. I might have to start replacing them with Indian shirts!?
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Crusty
Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 10:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Do like I do. I buy Hanes Pocket Beefy-Ts right from Hanes. They cost somewhere between 1/4 to 1/3 the price of Harley or Indian shirts and you can get them in any color you want.

I won't pay extra for the privilege of giving free advertising to a company any more. If they want to give me a shirt for free, I'll wear it, but I sure as hell won't pay them to promote their products.
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Mnscrounger
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2018 - 12:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If they brought back "Buell" I'd be merchandising junkie, and a possible bike customer, but only if they retained Erik on a lucrative consulting basis to make sure products with his name were worthy.
I think a "Buell" coffee cup would hold the coffee better when going around corners.

One thing for sure I would NEVER buy a Hero branded product. I would also go further out of my way, to trash their reputation to anyone interested in hearing the story.
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Eviled98
Posted on Saturday, January 20, 2018 - 05:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)


img_2919_jpg
Eat your heart out.
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