| Author | Message | ||
     Fmaxwell |
Blake wrote: "I wonder how many Buell enthusiastic Harley-Davidson dealers would eagerly welcome American sport bikes back into their showroom and their service bays?" Maybe all three of them. Most HD/Buell dealers were apathetic towards Buell sport bikes, employing salespeople who didn't understand (or, in some cases, even respect) sport bike riders. They knew little about the Buell motorcycles on their showroom floors -- or the motorcycles against which the Buells competed. On top of that, the animosity went both ways, with most sport bike riders having no intention of even setting foot in a Harley dealership (lest their friends ride by and see them there). Buell's sales were crippled by Harley's refusal to let Buell Motorcycles exist as an independent brand, sold and serviced by dealers other than Harley. Many sport bike riders would go to their local sport-bike-friendly dealership and choose between the competitors to Buell, never even seeing or considering the Buell brand. | ||
| Buelliedan |
well said Max | ||
| Buelliedan |
As for being skeptical. Unfortunately the past years events have done that to me. I was actually on the phone with EBR the morning that they shut down and not a word was said about any issues. I then received a call from a customer about 2 hours later telling me to check the internet as they had just shut down. It is easy to be a cheerleader for the brand if you have little skin in the game. But when you are in business that is tough to overcome when you had invested so much into it. A lot of you seem to feel that me being skeptical is a sign of me being a naysayer of the brand. Far from it. I love the brand but passion can only go so far in business when you are losing money unfortunately. So many of you I don't think understand how badly hurt the EBR dealers were by the shutdown. Many had bikes siting on their floor that they had floor planned for $14,000 each and more. They were lucky to sell them for $9,000 after the closure. A loss of $5,000 per bike is tough for the smaller dealers and it will be difficult for them to risk it again if the brand does come back. Even before the shutdown it was difficult to get dealers to sign on for EBR and it was a struggle to sell EBRs for even a $2,000 per bike profit. For every month that a bike sat on the showroom floor that cost a dealer about $150 in floor plan interest. If it sat for 6 months there goes half your profit. I can only imagine last years events will make that even harder to get EBR dealers to come back now. It wasn't like when HD shut down Buell and gave dealers huge incentives to sell off the remaining bikes. The EBRs that were on showroom floors in April were paid for by the individual dealers and they were left to fend for themselves to get rid of them often at huge losses. LAP will have to offer some great incentives for them to come back IMO. (Message edited by buelliedan on February 25, 2016) (Message edited by buelliedan on February 25, 2016) (Message edited by buelliedan on February 25, 2016) | ||
| Zhen13 |
The local EBR dealer here in Illinois MCC. Sent me an email stating that even though EBR will be producing new motorcycles for 2016 they will not be carrying them any longer. But will still be servicing. It's a shame, but I can't say I blame them. | ||
| Court |
Dealer here ..... One of the largest multi-brand Sportbike stores in the USA had dropped EBR several months prior to the 2015 shuttering. I'm not trying to be a naysayer either. But, when the patient died they already had an advanced cancer. It's going to take, as DAN property observes, someone with ........ a ton of perseverance and deep pockets and a passion that overides common sense. Coming back and doing the same thing over again will ..... Well Einstein answered that for us long ago. | ||
| Noone1569 |
Spoke with my local dealer, who tells me he is the #1 EBR dealer in the world by sales volume, and he stated that EBR has been in contact with him recently. He expects a face to face meeting in the next couple weeks; he will continue to support EBR and should have 2016s in his dealership in the next couple months. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Lots of interesting comments above. I think it stands to reason that nobody with common sense would try to start a motorcycle company in the first place. Of course, common sense just isn't much fun sometimes, is it? Ryan- it's good to hear something positive is happening with at least one dealer. | ||
| Mnscrounger |
"a passion that overides common sense" Sounds like a lot of the people on this forum.... | ||
| Buelliedan |
I have spoken to a reliable source and it seems like I was wrong. Yes, they do plan to start production back up again next month and will be offering the 1190 RX and SX. No changes from previous years except for paint color. Prices have not been determined yet. | ||
| Midknyte |
The 2016 SX will have a softer shock spring per info at the IMS, so there are some small changes | ||
| Buelliedan |
I am pretty sure the softer spring on the SX actually came out on the 2015 model but there were only something like 3 2015 SXs delivered to any dealers before the shutdown so in ecense it is new. I know the 2015 SX I had did come with a different shock than the RX. | ||
| Hughlysses |
This was posted to EBR's Facebook page today:
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| Speedy13 |
I am the service manager at MCC and hope that we continue being an EBR dealer.We have been in the dark for a very long time and are still waiting for the "Big News" Of all the brands we sell, this is the only brand I would spend my money on.We took some major losses on all the bikes we sold. If the Company can work with us, and we get a good demand for the product, we can move forward | ||
| Court |
quote: BIG news coming next week. Gosh ..... That sounds familiar :-) | ||
| Dave |
Good to hear Speedy13! I really hope MCC sticks with EBR (...after the rug was pulled out and jaws legally wired shut.) Post when you'll be on the track with your RX! DAve | ||
| Blake |
Dear Max, Buell/EBR enthusiastic HD dealerships are surely a minority, but not so slim as you imagine. You may have missed the primary premise implied, the enthusiasm being warranted by a solid commitment from the corporate leaders at Harley-Davidson Inc. Too many are die hard sport bike enthusiasts. They want the product if it is supported and allowed to develop as it should. You don't stop eating pistachios even after choking on a few bad nuts. You just pay a little close attention to what you're about to chew on. Maybe I should have used okra as an analogy, but all okra is good, isn't it? | ||
| Blake |
Don't tell the folks at Zero Motorcycles that starting a new motorcycle company does not make sense. In their target market, they are flat out embarrassing the likes of Harley-Davidson. What may not make sense are certain overly optimistic business models, those like Henderson and Motus for instance. Start simple, be successful, grow. See Zero. See Thompson Centerfire. See Glock. See Honda (from a small motorbike to now virtually every form of engine powered vehicle and equipment there is). And as much as we despise the way they treated EBR, look at Hero. | ||
| Blake |
Dan, I don't see your comments as naysaying. Having skin in the game makes all the difference. What would you do differently if you could do it again? | ||
| Hughlysses |
I don't see your comments as naysaying. Having skin in the game makes all the difference. I absolutely agree with this; I hope I haven't given an impression to the contrary. What would you do differently if you could do it again? I'd also like very much like to hear what you think EBR should have done differently, from a marketing standpoint. In the information I found on a couple of official EBR sites before the 1190RX came out, they said a lot about all the things they were going to do to help promote the brand and help dealerships thrive. I didn't see much evidence that that happened. | ||
| Court |
>>>I'd also like very much like to hear what you think EBR should have done differently, from a marketing standpoint. I would too. | ||
| Mog |
When Erik wadded what he felt was the porcine Buell Blast, he either advertently or inadvertently left a hole in the motorcycle world, later filled by 300 to 500cc road and repli-bikes. However, there is still no icon of stature (Manx) and the closest heart pounder, jaw dropper and over priced, is the nearly OK running Royal Enfield Continental (also of India). Had he cobbled any bike even slightly better with a decent AC four stroke (Rotax or Husqvarna, etc.) engine, he might have had a base continuity to afford a stream of presence and even a positive standalone cash flow (a lot of ifs here). If a variant had been a somewhat dowdy cruiser, hell, maybe HD would have used it as a Learn to Ride bike until their bed wetter came out. I will never know. Me thinks Erik may have learned much more 'market' from Pawan and the Hero folks than Pawn Monjal would like to admit. It is my prayer that Erik brings that special kernel of a thought back to the USA which was his engineering practice and turn the tide on Hero....... everywhere. A twin 1190 (Super Street) and a single 595 (Runabout)? Makes my eyes water (speed & wind, ya know?).  | ||
| Midknyte |
https://www.reddit.com/r/Harley/comments/47u02z/on_the_topic_of_the_sportster_once_being_a_sport/ Just saw this...  | ||
| Snacktoast |
The only thing true or even remotely of relevance to this conversation from that reddit post is, "Everyone says they want an American sportbike until they see the price tag." There is most definitely truth in this. Americans (in general) want everything cheap and they want the highest quality at a cheap price too. What consumers (often) don't realize is how expensive it is to make or assemble things in this country. When it comes time to pony up, whether you like it or not, most won't put their money where their mouth is when it comes to "American is better than foreign". Sure, I'm speaking in generalities, but so many people that aren't in manufacturing in this country don't have a clue or realize it. Those that ARE often have an immense pride in the product that they produce, as did EBR employees. | ||
| Fmaxwell |
Blake, you wrote: "Buell/EBR enthusiastic HD dealerships are surely a minority, but not so slim as you imagine." I'm not basing it on imagination. I own two different Buell motorcycles -- an XB12Ss and an 1125CR -- and I've been to four Harley dealers that carried Buells in Maryland, two in Virginia, one in Florida, and, if memory serves, at least one in California. I met very few sales people who had knowledge and enthusiasm when it came to Buells and even fewer who also knew anything about the competition to Buell. You wrote: "You may have missed the primary premise implied, the enthusiasm being warranted by a solid commitment from the corporate leaders at Harley-Davidson Inc." No, I didn't miss it; I just don't agree with the implied premise. Local Harley franchise owners and salespeople have shown little interest in what "corporate leaders at Harley-Davidson Inc." are solidly committed to when it's something other than a Sportster or big, air-cooled, pushrod V-Twin. Their bread and butter is sales of traditional Harleys, clothing, gear, and 'lifestyle accessories' and that's where they focus all of their training, branding, and efforts. Neither do most sport bike consumers care about the commitment of Harley management; they still aren't going to set foot into a Harley dealer. I really want EBR to come back and succeed and I see them doing that by competing on the same sales floors with other high-end sport bikes from companies like Aprilia, Ducati, MV Agusta, and KTM. | ||
| Midknyte |
>The only thing true or even remotely of relevance to this conversation from that reddit post is, "Everyone says they want an American sportbike until they see the price tag." I hear ya. Yet these same people do believe in a premium product and price point - on something foreign (Ducati, et'al). | ||
| Davegess |
If you want to make an inexpensive bike you need to make a lot of bikes so you need need a broad product line up. To get this you simply an enormous pile of money. Folks like Honda and Ducati and many other got started in a market starved for product, post was Europe and Japan. Cheap basic transportation could make a decent profit and finance more ambitious bikes.I don't see any way to do that today. Cheap basic bikes exist everywhere and make very little money unless you make millions of them. This takes an enormous pile of money. The way EBR tried to do it makes some sense. Take a product that is 90 percent finished, the barracuda, and finish art. This make the pile of money needed much smaller. Use the really nice finished bike to attract investors who have the not quite so enormous pile of money you need to bring the bike to real volume production and then develop and launch a bike with some real volume potential. Unfortunately the only big pile of money on offer was from Hero. Unfortunately it cost more and took more time than planned and Hero proved a fickle partner. I am hopeful that someone will stop in to pull this off. I think that the only real possibilities are BRP or Polaris. I see issues with either of them BUT they do seem to be the only game in town. Unless there is a private invest or privately help company that is will to take a very high risk 100 million dollar gamble for a possible return that will never be very large and could be along way off. | ||
| Fmaxwell |
Davegess wrote: "If you want to make an inexpensive bike you need to make a lot of bikes so you need need a broad product line up." You're right throughout your post, but most of the Monday morning quarterbacks just don't understand. They have no idea of the magnitude of NRE costs to develop a new molded plastic fender, much less an entire motorcycle. Nor do they understand how difficult, and expensive, it is to market a new motorcycle brand, advertise the products, sign up dealerships, provide training and tech support to dealer service personnel, stock warehouses with parts, establish parts distribution channels, and so on. I agree with you that EBR generally took the right approach by making a halo product to wow the motorcycle press. And we'd seen them go from a $40K bike to a $20K version in very short order. Had the money not run out before customers developed confidence in the longevity of the brand, I think sales would have steadily climbed. Speaking as an Monday morning quarterback, I think that the only big strategic mistake that EBR made was entering World Superbike. They didn't have the money, or the engine, to go up against the likes of Ducati and Aprilia. Unlike Ducati's Panigale engine, the EBR 1190 was not a short-stroke, high-revving race engine. It was much better suited to use on a street-ridden sport bike, where a wide torque spread is much more desirable and satisfying than horsepower at the kind of high RPM ranges in which most street riders spend about 0.02% of their time. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"I think that the only big strategic mistake that EBR made was entering World Superbike. They didn't have the money" If I recall correctly, that same argument was being made at the time and some were saying that EBR wasnt financing the racing side but it was all HERO money that was funding it. That is what I remember being said. Was it factual? Who knows. But it is likely. | ||
| Davegess |
Hero was funding it as far as I know and really wanted to move into the Euro market so being there made some sense. If they had stuck with it consistent top tens looked very doable late in year two and even a top 5 at one or two of the more technical tracks. The bike was far closer to stock than anything out there, and I mean roughly $100,000 closer per bike stock. Unfortunately we couldn't get that story out there as it would have been a good selling point but by that time Hero had already began to play games with the money and PR well by the wayside. | ||
| Court |
The racing element . . . . Subject to those with more accurate Intel . . . . was completely separate from EBR. I was told, as Dave said, that Hero wanted exposure and initiated, and funded separately, a discrete effort. If the bike had cost $29.95 USD ...... it simply doesn't matter. Your marketing strategy should never be based on making a series of "we spent less" excuses every Monday. Particular in a series than costs over $100,000/event just to appear. Targets are passing by one more time and there's one round left in the chamber. Choose wisely. |
