| Author | Message | ||
     Mrakz83 |
What to make of this? http://touch.cycleworld.com/all/124533#1 | ||
| Court |
Fabulous. It seems Geoff, and the team, have a clear understanding . . from simple on the ground logistics to the issues with the bike. This is going to get good. | ||
| M2typhoon |
Court, This is not going anywhere until next year. If they are just now putting parts on the bike to raise red line, I don't see much beyond finishing races perhaps without melting a motor. It's to late to make major difference now. | ||
| Hughlysses |
As Geoff says, they're hoping to be able to at least collect some points this season, which I believe means a 15th or better finish. | ||
| Ffbuell1 |
I certainly feel for Geoff He is a nice guy. but it almost seems that the higher ups I at EBR and Hero really had no clue what racing at this level would take to be competitive,because constantly blowing engines and not even being able to start some races is inexcusable at this level, I will however continue to route for them but as far as purchasing a new EBR I think I will hold off until reliability proves itself. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Anyone basing your street bike purchasing decisions on WSBK results is, don't take this the wrong way, being stupid. If you are buying a bike to race WSBK, then the results are very relevant. I understand there will be a number of people doing exactly this. Their money, their business, but I'm not going to pretend its not like saying I won't buy an orange because apples are covered in pesticide. | ||
| Hughlysses |
The way I see it, these are the possible explanations for their performance thus far: 1) Neither EBR nor Hero realized how difficult WSBK would be. 2) EBR realized how difficult it would be, but Hero (who's footing the bill for the effort) said go ahead anyway. 3) EBR planned to develop race parts to make the 1190RX more competitive, but has been too busy with other projects to do so up to now. 4) EBR and Hero fully expected the results we're currently seeing, but elected to compete anyway while a clean-sheet new motorcycle design which will be competitive in WSBK next year is being developed. I find #1 completely implausible. | ||
| Court |
I think it's exciting . . . . but then . . . I remember when trying to get $3,000 of inventory financing was a big deal. EBR is in the big game. Neither Geoff nor Erik Buell are neophytes. I'm going with "I'll bet they know more than folks on the internet think". Poor results . . . not that I enjoy them more than anyone . . . won't impact sales or turn some of the most focused folks I've even known into quitters. Quite, I'd suggest, the converse. The folks I've worked with, in my 30+ years of playing with Buells, will see this as a thrown gauntlet. This works nice for me. I'd hoped to make several overseas races this year and the new job won't allow that. I'm hoping next year to do at least 3 of the races and I'm betting it's going to be fun. Racing is the hardest thing a manufacturer can take on. I'll bet the folks at EBR and the folks directly involved in the racing know that. There have been times that just making a bike or hiring a single person seemed an insurmountable challenge. Now, seeing EBR add more than 100 employees in the last year, I'm betting they are up to meeting the challenge. We can go on and on and on . . . . as non-racers with precious few details speculating on what we'd do. Perhaps a construction worker in NYC and a grocery store exec in Sacramento can put their heads together with an auto body pro in Indiana and figure out a solution . . . . but for me, I'm betting on The Elves. | ||
| Mog |
It is always best for the hero to have have a firm foothold on which to compare his successful quest. Always best, an impossible challenge to overcome. One in which the challenger and crew are exposed to the crucible, forging and quenching of the task. Erik is one for the man and the myth. In this case I feel Pawan Munjal may have introduced Erik to Genesha. A glance at the nonsecular icon might give rise to the obstacle presented and that which the Hero must overcome to be successful. Succeed Hero-Erik!!!!  | ||
| Ffbuell1 |
Hello Reepicheep,Your Quote, anyone basing your ,street bike purchase on world superbike result's is stupid,Well then I guess there are a lot of stupid people out there,and it doesn't look like the press is giving E.B.R. much support either Cycle World Crash.net and cycle news all have printed the facts ,The failure of Geoff May to be able to start races in succession due to these so called small technical problem's and a AAron yates out of engines and personnel from WSB turning down E.B.R. Hero"s request for more engines,This engine platform according to many of the poster's on here is very close to show room stock ,I understand that racing at this level is much harder on engine's than street riding but if you see them not lasting a race long session than you can bet if someone rides there's hard what will it be like in 2 to 3 thousand miles of fast street or track day's or club racing?I am not wnting to argue with anyone but I am disappointed in this company ,but very much want to see them succeed. | ||
| Ffbuell1 |
I stand corrected ,it is Geoff May who is out of engine's not Yate's | ||
| Reepicheep |
We agree that there are a lot of stupid people out there.  One of the nice things for me personally about riding a Buell has been the kind of people that tend to ride them. I like good handling bikes, but I tire of most sportbike riders. Lots of people who couldn't even run at an intermediate track day pace run out and buy an R1 or GSXR-1000 so they "have enough machine" when a skilled rider on an SV-650 could hand them their ass on a track. These engines aren't wearing out, they are being pushed beyond their design limits in order to try and close a significant performance gap relative to other WSBK entries in WSBK trim. It could be a durability problem with the motor, which isn't proven on the street yet. But it is certainly a "Youngs Modulus" thing (google it). Flex a piece of metal less than X amount, and it's a spring, and it will basically flex and recover that way forever. Flex it at X + .1 amount, and it won't recover completely, and it will break. The difference between "forever" and "one race" can be a knife edge, and experienced WSBK teams know exactly where it is. If somebody wants to buy a street replica of a WSBK winning bike because they are a fan, it's their business and their money. A motorcycle is an emotional purchase and you should buy something that pushes your buttons. I think the converse is not true however. To day I won't buy a street bike replica or X because the WSBK X is blowing motors. For track days and racing, I'd look at other racers in the class and see what they are having success on, and seeing what parts and availability are for particular models. It will probably be all over the map and vary wildly by region. For example here in the states, where we do not have tiered licensing, Japanese inline 4 bikes are very popular for the track. One reason is because they perform well. A bigger reason is that there is a never ending stream of parts and salvage bikes pouring from wannabe ricky racers that saw an R1 win Superbike, and figure they couldn't possibly live with anything less, even though they still can't take a turn to save their lives (literally in some cases). Lots of salvage bikes with 3000 miles on the clock...  | ||
| Court |
>>>>Well then I guess there are a lot of stupid people out there There really aren't. What there are is a lot of people on internet boards who SAY they base their purchase decisions on things like racing. During the years we bought extensive and expensive demographic research at Buell (actually it was John's group and our meetings were always at HD HQ) I learned a LOT about where bikes sell (Few folks can explain why PA has so many HD dealers and why Detroit was the sportbike capital of the world) and who buys them. When you are REALLY selling them for a business . . .you don't base marketing decisions on things like social media and internet chat rooms. Talk . . . as the age old saying goes . . is cheap. | ||
| Classax |
I'll go on record as saying there are only two reasons to use professional racing results as a factor in the purchase of a race replica. You are either a fan of the brand or you plan to race it at that level or beyond. Other wise it means little because the bikes you see on the track rarely reflect what you're buying in the show room. EBR is having troubles its clear, but then even when I'm pushing hard on a track day, I'm not on the rev limiter of 11K almost all the time. These guys are running it at 11,800 ALL the time and really could use another 1K. Run any vehicle like that without radiator fans, on race fuel, with high compression ratios, advanced timing, while trying to come to grips with the ECU, and TC and ABS and Wheelie control, on a big jug V2 that has tons of engine braking and you'll likely break the cost effective parts too. The average street rider isn't landing stoppies at 100mph while downshifting, 10 or 12 times every two minutes for an half an hour. Your average track day session is 20 minutes and you're out there trying to go fast true, but these guys are out there trying to ride the edge of destruction. Speed cost money plain and simple. And anyone who's raced knows the moment you improve one area, you expose another weak link somewhere esle. So you can't want all forged parts or Ti knick knacks without paying for it in a $25-30k a copy per bike. ( over 6000 miles and mines runs fine by the way) | ||
| Ljm |
I offer the following manufacturing numbers from 2003 to 2010 for your consideration. During that time, Buell's one (correct me if I am wrong) one championship at the national level or above, with a number more podiums I can't identify off the top of my head. Nice racing presence, but not as successful as other manufacturers. During that 8 model year period, almost 80,000 bikes were sold, at an average of almost 10,000 per year. Clearly those bikes were not purchased based on race performance, or for that matter, to be raced. People buy them based on other factors, and they will continue to do so. That microscopic minority who buy bikes to race, primarily at the club level MAY buy based on race performance, and inclusion at the AMA, BSB, WSBK, etc. levels is based on a variety of factors, not the least of which is factory support and sponsorship. So, who will buy EBR's? People who like the concept, like the bike, want to buy American, who take them for a ride and fall in love with them, etc. Are there people out there that will only ride what Josh Hayes rides? Sure, but they are not most of the motorcycle buyers. We are. XB9R & XB12R Firebolt (Sport-Fighters. 17899 built) XB9S & XB12S Lightning (Street-Fighters. 15184 built) XB9SL Lightning Low (Lowered version of XB9S. 1513 built) XB9SX aka "XB9CX" Lightning CityX (City Cross Urban Assault Bike. 9632 built.) XB12Scg Lightning (Lowered version of XB12S. 5561 built.) XB12Ss Lightning Stretched (Longer wheelbase version of XB12S. 7013 built) XB12STT Lightning Super TT (Motard Inspired Tourist Trophy. 1755 built.) XB12SX Lightning CityX (XB12 version of the CityX. 860 built.) XB12X Ulysses (Adventure Sport. 7432 built) XB12XP Ulysses (Police Model. 137 built.) XB12XT Ulysses (Adventure Sport Touring. 1911 built) 1125R - 5836 1125CR - 3099 1125RR – 3 77835 9729 per year | ||
| M2typhoon |
"People buy them based on other factors, and they will continue to do so. That microscopic minority who buy bikes to race, primarily at the club level MAY buy based on race performance, and inclusion at the AMA, BSB, WSBK, etc. levels is based on a variety of factors, not the least of which is factory support and sponsorship." The most prolific club race bike is a SV650. Was never meant to be a race bike. They are popular due to price and overall performance. | ||
| Ffbuell1 |
Hello to every one who has responded ,Obviously we are all Buell E.B.R. fans,and really want to see much success ( I own a 2009 xb12r Firebolt ) and love it .Now everyone made great point's about the relationship or lack there of between WSB racing and any other riding and I can agree to a point ,But what I am trying to say is when a lot of people see only failure when following racing on the world stage they are going to question it's basic architecture and reliability> all one must do is remember the early Buell air cooled Sportster based engines ,seeing them hand grenade once they started making any real power was tough but that led to the much more durable and reliable xb perimeter framed model's. and yes i plan on one day purchasing a new E.B.R.But I will wait a year before doing so because I can not ride this year any way I had a very serious accident back in March on my Fire bolt. | ||
| J2blue |
I'm going to chip in with my little bit of experience. I definitely won't buy a next bike based on race results no matter who the manufacturer is. Why? My 1125 is way more bike than any road can usefully permit. I'm always trying to dial back the throttle and just slow down and enjoy the scenery but it's just impossible. I really have to be concerned about not landing in jail. I wish I could afford to ride all track days, and maybe even race on track, too, but my budget is limited. I love "Reba Lucille" my red headed demon bike, but buying anything that can beat her on the track is rather pointless for me. Like so many others I am looking forward to what the AX model turns out to be. Maybe it will be very durable thanks to lessons learned from testing in WSBK. Maybe. | ||
| Classax |
People who really follow racing are usually very aware of the technical differences and improvements required to make a successfully durable racer. the casual fan may or may not. The reality is there will always be those who buy form and those who buy function at the extremes and the vast majority in the middle who buy the form that best fits their functions. I don't think that the core demographic that EBR is targeting with the RX or SX is overly concerned with the bikes grenading in WSB, to the contrary they are keenly aware that the whole purpose they are being pushed to that point there(WSB) is to ensure/prove they don't do so on the street or local club event. | ||
| Court |
>>>I don't think that the core demographic that EBR is targeting with the RX or SX is overly concerned with the bikes grenading in WSB I'd be willing to wager that less than 0.005% can tell you what WSBK is or stand for. Less than 10% have no clue who or what HERO is. | ||
| Sir_wadsalot |
Am I reading this right? You're bragging on 10,000 bikes a year? 200,000 bikes or so overall? How great HD/Buell's market research was? It doesn't matter that EBR's grenading engines in WSBK? Honda sells like 25 MILLION bikes a year. You know why? They have a fantastic reputation. Buell might have sold 10,000 bikes that same year, you know why? Terrible reputation. You know what I always heard? "I'd might buy one if it wasn't for the harley motor." I said it myself, and that's why I didn't have one until the 1125 came out. It sold like shite- why? Terrible reputation. It is a FANTASTIC bike, and won it's AMA class. We cheated, arguably, but the average squid wouldn't know or care about race politics- we won with it. Still, bad rep due to the media. XB's didn't sell in large numbers due to the bad rep (deserved or not) of the Sporty engine. The problem is, blowing engines and DNF's in SBK is gonna get the new bike/company a BAD REP in the sportbike community. Honda/Kwak/Yammy/Duc...whatever, all dependable, all fast....EBR? What's that? You mean them guys who keep blowing up? I'll have to look into that....don't they have harley motors? This is the kind of crap we/they/whatever need to avoid. Sure YOU would buy one, and I would buy one, but it's the rest of the world that's the problem. I know the vast majority of what I just said isn't Erik Buell's fault, but it is still a factor that EBR must deal with. It may be better to stop high fiving each other how great it was to corner a tiny little piece of the market that- literally- nobody else cared about, and focus more on how to become a "real" motorcycle company, with big boy pants, that can finish races and everything, just like....everyone else. (That's not aimed at EBR, that's aimed at us, internally as a community.) Again, it's not that SBK racing is comparable to street riding, it's not, but to say it has no bearing on future sales is being willfully blind. It's like saying the Sporty engine is just as good as a Suzuki engine, or people don't need to go that fast, or (insert excuse here). It absolutely has a bearing on EBR's reputation, which already has to dig out from under Buell's reputation, which was poor in the sportbike community as a whole. Flame away. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
sir_wads - I can honestly say that was my favorite post of yours ever. | ||
| Classax |
At one of my local dealerships sits a 1199 quatra engine on display with exactly 583 miles on it. Beautiful paper weight. It seized up and had to be replaced. The fact that this bike did so before the owner could even break it in scares me more than the fact that last season Ducati also blew a motor or 4 as I recall in practices in WSBK. I'm not saying there WSBK doesn't matter, it will affect a few, but those few weren't likely in the business plan to begin with. The people that EBR thinks they will sell the bikes to are too savy to buy because of WSBK performance. True they may have gotten a bump if they were on the podium every weekend, but that likely would influence the majority of likely buyers all that much either. You just don't see many squids on an EBR/BMC machine despite the fact they they are lightning quick. As far as durabilty goes, I see XB's and 1125's on the road and track all the time. Don't see many 4 and 5 year old big four bikes still ripping up the streets. | ||
| Court |
>>>The problem is, blowing engines and DNF's in SBK is gonna get the new bike/company a BAD REP in the sportbike community. I'm betting you have never worked in the sportbike business, I'd take exception to most the things you stated. Try this . . . . next time you see a group of sport bikers . . . stop and ask them "what do you think about Buell's racing this this year?" 99 in 100 will look at you like you're crazy and tell you "Buell went out of business". Try it. | ||
| Ljm |
Question: What percentage of Buells sold? Answer: 100%. They sold every one they built. I suspect that they aren't trying to make 25 million bikes. Just a few, and sell them. | ||
| Buellmojo |
"As far as durabilty goes, I see XB's and 1125's on the road and track all the time. Don't see many 4 and 5 year old big four bikes still ripping up the streets." Huh, not sure where you ride, or attend track days...I see the complete opposite of that statement, and always have?!?! | ||
| Classax |
To clarify most of the big 4 bikes on the road and track are usually no more than 5 years old before they are dropped for something else( SV650 being the big exception.) Where as anyone on a Buell is riding a bike almost a decade or more old. Don't even see many 999's or 1098 anymore and they are great bikes! There are usually at least two 1125R's and XB12R at every track day I've been to in the last two years, and the riders friggin rail them. I missed GSS this last weekend,but a month ago there were 3 1125R's and two XB12R absolutely killing level 3 at that little track. | ||
| Buellmojo |
Do you think maybe because ones options/choices for a V2 sport bike has been limited? I like V2's, so I track an SV1K, that is not my first choice, but with money, availability, and reliability in mind, it made the most sense for me...I can not trust an 1125, and parts are limited and expensive, Ducati & Aprilia are $$$, RC51's & Superhawk's are hard to find not ragged out, if you find one, people want way more than they are worth, in my opinion, so I needed a bit more power than an SV650...SV1K fit... I am one of those people (track) who hang on to said bike, only because I want a V2 that works for me. I assume by what you are saying, these are the same people/motorcycles that you are seeing every time (makes perfect sense to me)? That many Buell's, in one place, at the same time, is not common on the street (that I have seen), nor at any of the tracks that I have been. | ||
| Classax |
Yes V2(real bike options) are very limited Yes its the same guys, Buell riders are a breed apart anyway. I don't know that the 1125r is unreliable or why it cant't be trusted. They do take commitment from talking to their owners. As for parts well it is a 4 year old bike that had a pretty short production run. I know a few local Buell guys and one of the few HD Buell crazy dealers is very close so we often run into each other at various events. | ||
| M2typhoon |
Geoff's interview/statement wasn't exactly letting the cat out of the bag cause we all knew what was up more or less. My question is this. Why did he wait so long to make such a statement? Is it because there's actually something coming to help the bikes soon or is it due to all out frustration? |
