| Author | Message | ||
     Ft_bstrd |
The answer to needing to make more money isn't a union. If 100% of the population were union and their wages were doubled tomorrow, would that fix the problem? If labor costs double from $14.00 an hour to $28.00, that labor cost goes into the price of the products. So now the item that used to cost $14.00 now costs $28.00. The worker still has to work an hour for the same product. For the worker who's wages are now $28.00 per hour to see any real increase in buying power, he/she will need to buy a product unaffected by the artificial labor cost increases. This means buying foreign made products where a labor cost arbitrage is created. There are additional issues with the artificial wage increases. Doubling the wages places the individual into a higher tax rate, federal state, local, social security, medicare. There will be negative wage arbitrage between the higher wage cost reflected in the product price and the wages that actually are seen by the employee. If price is fixed (competitively), then some other variable of manufacture must be adjusted to compensate. In the case of US auto manufacture, it's materials, R&D, technology, design, etc. Unions only work in the favor of it's members when a few are union but the vast majority are not. The goal of card check is to GREATLY increase union membership. Given the wage/price paradigm, the end goal is NOT what is best for the members but what provides greatest power to the unions. | ||
| Old_man |
Unions are more than about wages. They are also about protecting the individual worker from the power of the large corporation. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Used to be. | ||
| Johnnymceldoo |
I would be very pro-union if in my life I had seen union people proud of their work and company and had a team mentality. It seems though that its a union vs. employer mentality. Maybe the employer was in the wrong and maybe not but it all boils down to free will. Were all born with it. We need more self sufficiency and less entitlement mentality. | ||
| Court |
>>>Unions are more than about wages. Absolutely. I've long said that anytime you think money will solve a problem you don't properly understand the problem. Part of the problem, and I'm not suggesting it applies in this case, with the current union structure are the number of folks you have to pay who are not working (producing). Think about how General Motors and Chrysler were having to pay folks who were not working 85% of their pay . . . . It's not the union wages so much as it is the work rules. Many are ridiculous and choke productivity. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Think about how General Motors and Chrysler were having to pay folks who were not working 85% of their pay . . . . ARE having to pay....... the current furloughed GM employees are receiving 80% of their pay. | ||
| Old_man |
I worked when I had no protection from the whims of my employer. I had two young children. I would be scheduled to work 4p to 12p Christmas eve, then 8a to 4 p Christmas day. The same deal on New Years. No extra pay for working holidays. Days off nonconsecutive. 3 different shifts in a week. Drove 25 miles to work, changed into a uniform, then told it was slow, it was now my day off. No pay for overtime worked. And it seemed that everytime someone farted we had to work overtime. We had no power, were forbidden by law to strike. (Message edited by old_man on May 15, 2009) | ||
| Jstfrfun |
Things all over have changed since the 1940s, like I said there WAS a time when the unions were needed, but now the union is all about the union not about the employee. The little guy still resides at the bottom of the priority list. And now it's a joke punchline about the one guy shoveling with five guys watching as supervisors. | ||
| Old_man |
That happened to me in the 60s and 70s, not the 40s. | ||
| Old_man |
Even in the early 80s, my shift was one 8a - 4p, two 4p - 12p two 12p - 8a every week. with my days off split. I worked every weekend. Not a penny extra for this. I worked every holiday. It was hard to tell if I was coming or going. I was knock out department watch commander. | ||
| Dbird29 |
Didn't hurt you none. What's your bitchin' all about? | ||
| Old_man |
Tell us something about yourself Mr. bird. Would you rather not? | ||
| Court |
I loved those days . . . . I was an overtime ••••• in the late 60's, early 70's. My foreman was always looking for someone to come in early and fuel trucks and everyday there was a chance for overtime, often many hours. I used to get kidded cause lots of times I'd work really late and just curl up in one of the tool trailers and never go home . . . . . Now sure I 'd want to do it now but hey. . . .the union saw to it that I got paid OT for all those hours and it paid for my undergrad. | ||
| Madduck |
In the late 60's early 70's I worked Soo line railroad, union and government took turns ruining our lives. I started split shift, 2 day shifts, one second shift and 2 nite shifts. Union bosses used the shift schedule to "punish" members who they thought had an attitude. Mainly about shaking new guys down for extra "contributions". Government made sure we as members couldn't do anything about it as railroads were essential service. In 1971 a couple of the boys just back from Vietnam straightened the situation out by sending a couple of the national representatives into intensive care for a week or so. Life that year got to ok. Made me a believer in violence as the only solution to a very limited set of problems. | ||
| Dbird29 |
Old_man I am just a simple caveman Buell rider. Don't see the need to play the victim and fluff my self up. But you just carry on with your fluffing. | ||
| Court |
>>>Made me a believer in violence as the only solution to a very limited set of problems. There are times. Our union used to have a group they spoke little of called the "Minutemen". They were notorious, when the NYPD showed up on horseback, for dumping bags of marbles. When a couple folks were going to quit the firm I was working for in 1999, two of them showed up at their house with ball bats at midnight, to help clear up where they would be working. The leader was a fellow who was about 5'2" and his nickname was "two guns". He made his name wrapping a guy in barb wire and dangling him in an elevator shaft until his thinking was aligned. I spent four years studying labor law and legislation and never really knew how "negotiation" was done till I moved to New York City. Bad news is that my former boss just got pinched a couple weeks ago by the FBI. They say he's the leader of a local mob family . . . imagine that. | ||
| Old_man |
Mr. bird, I know what you ARE by what you do. You are a little sniper hiding in the dark. Never anything intelligent to add to a discussion. Keep hiding and taking your little pot shots. They, like you, don't amount to much. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Who are the mob families these days? I never hear anything about the mob. It's as if they fell off the face of the earth. | ||
| Dbird29 |
Does that mean I can be the victim now? | ||
| Old_man |
None of the officers of my union were paid. They were not professional union. All unions should be that way. Just people doing the same job as the other members. | ||
| Court |
>>>>It's as if they fell off the face of the earth. Yeah right . . . http://mob-news.blogspot.com/ Just had 11 of our employees at work arrested by the FBI. Reading the indictments, which included photos, made the Sopranos seem like an episode of Captain Kangaroo. It's a funny world. | ||
| Buellgrrrl |
If HOG (NYSE) has excess capacity and the lease at East Troy is about to renew, it'd make more sense to move Buell production in with the Sportsters and V-Rod in Kansas City. Buell's offices could be tucked into the excess space HOG has available in the Milwaukee area. BTW, OM, you're right about union office pay- I've been a steward and trustee before. All we got as stewards was free dues and the trustees got something like $200 a month. If you figured all the time we put in on union business we probably weren't even making minimum wage. Out full time Business Agents didn't do any better- their pay was fixed at the highest hourly wage for our members times 40 hours a week. All the BAs worked way more than 40 hours a week, and some took quite a cut in pay to become union officers. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
it'd make more sense to move Buell production in with the Sportsters and V-Rod in Kansas City One is union based production and the other is not. I don't see that working out, too well. | ||
| Buellgrrrl |
The KC plant is union and MO is a "Right to Work" (for less) state. Any East Troy production workers that transferred to KC would receive union scale and benefits but would be free to decide if they want to join the union or not. | ||
| Court |
>>>MO is a "Right to Work" (for less) state. That is inaccurate. Missouri is NOT a right to work state,  The balance of the information in that post is factually lacking as well. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Interesting to note where the greatest job growth has been as well as where the current lowest unemployment is. Right to Work States might just be the last line of defense to Card Check. I expect to see continued job growth in Right to Work States. It's a good time to live in the South! | ||
| Loki |
Try getting hired by a RR and not be a member. Even in the "right to work" areas. | ||
| Buellgrrrl |
Court, even if you're right about MO, no worker with a brain is going to complain about being "forced" to accept union wages and benefits. Heck, if I hadn't been "forced" to join a union three decades ago I wouldn't have the money to replace my lemon Buell with a new BMW nor have a pension that allows me the time to ride the BMW. FB, with wages even lower in places like China, why would a runaway manufacturer bother moving a shop to the south? Loki, the railroads are under a different set of labor laws. Yes, there are some non union railroads, but you probably wouldn't want to work for one. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Don't know. Ask Saturn. Ask Nissan. Ask Toyota. Ask Hyundai. Ask Volkswagen. There are significant hurdles to moving a plant to a foreign country. If workers could be had for $35-$40/hr could be had domestically vs. $75-$80/hr, having a domestically located plant is advantageous. Ultimately, I don't believe there is much GM and Chrysler will be able to do to survive. It's too little too late. They will sell off the assets that are valuable to foreign buyers and the rest will go down a dark hole. The UAW will have significantly fewer employees for whom to advocate. The UAW will make a run at the other auto manufacturers. Few will bite. The American people will be the ultimate losers in that we will pay for the benefits under the UAW out of OUR collective paychecks. I can't imagine that ANY of the original employees under the UAW would have wanted THEIR benefits at the cost of wages of other employees. Nonetheless, NON-UAW employees WILL be paying and are paying the cost of benefits to UAW employees. The end outcome of the whole deal is that instead of being employees of Chrysler, Ford, or GM, the members of the UAW are employees of the Federal Government. In an effort to negotiate higher wages and better benefits, the UAW has guaranteed that all of their members are unemployed by any domestic auto maker. Bravo! Job well done! | ||
| Birdy |
There were a lot of plants that supplied the Big 3 were I use to live, most are long gone now. BUT do you think the non-union works at those plants were EVER going to see the big UAW wages? Heck most didn't see $10.00 an hour. Big UAW wages have to come from some body, like you and me. I'm sorry if I feel they cut their own noes off but that what I feel about it. |
