| Author | Message | ||
     Jscott |
http://www.ydr.com/newsfull/ci_5125737 | ||
| Court |
How funny . . anyone find irony in the fact that they are meeting at Toyota arena? Wonder if the handwriting on the wall could be clearer? | ||
| Old_mil |
Perhaps they should pick up the phone and call the workers over at Ford? | ||
| Court |
Great idea . . .I'd call quick while they are still answering the phone. 
Actually, I think Ford is going to pull out and return to greatness. But some difficult lessons in the labor/management arena will be required. | ||
| Jscott |
"Actually, I think Ford is going to pull out and return to greatness. But some difficult lessons in the labor/management arena will be required." Have you seen some of the European Ford's? They are sweet. Building a car the public wants goes a long way. | ||
| Court |
>>>Building a car the public wants goes a long way. You may thank Ford, more than any manufacturer in the world, for illustrating that vividly with the F-150 pick-up truck which has become the sales standard by which vehicles are judged. | ||
| Jscott |
Yeah their truck are great... that's why I said CAR. | ||
| Jimidan |
Does the MoCo really think that the workers are going to soften their stand just because they got an extra day vacation?  But seriously, I don't know what the worker's sticking points were on the new contract, but how can they bitch about a four percent wage increase in each of the three contract years? Regarding Ford, the new generation of cars like the Fusion look pretty good to me. In fact, the big three are building some pretty nice cars these days...I like the Caliber. | ||
| Blake |
Starting out at $36K/year base compensation (not including overtime pay) on a production line seems like an incredible deal to me, for the employee, not for the corporation. Harley might do well to ditch that facility and open one somewhere else away from the greedy claws of the trade unions. Kilgore, Texas would be perfect. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) The folks here learned their lesson when upon being subjected to a union strike at Kilgore's largest employer, Mansfield Plumbing, makers of fine porcelain furniture, the corporation honored their word and simply closed up shop. The place is still sitting empty after near ten years. Seems to me that the unions are too greedy and are fixin' to hurt themselves more and more every day. There used to be a real and serious need for the trade and labor unions. I don't see it anymore. I could be wrong. When the jobs go to Mexico and China though, I'm sure some folks will commence to blaming the big bad corporation. For now they just carp on endlessly about the "high prices" of Harley-Davidson motorcycles. I'm a big believer in the free market. (Message edited by blake on February 01, 2007) | ||
| Outrider |
Hey...Milwaukee and Wisconsin will be forever indebted grateful if Harley moved those jobs, which were stolen from us by AMF, back home. | ||
| Cobradave93 |
Don't listen to what the company whats you to hear. I am a worker at York and the company is making this into an issue of hourly pay and it is not. The issues that are at hand are of our pensions and healthcare. The 4% raises are there only if we take the lower form of healthcare they give us. Also, the two tier wage system that they want is not fair because those just starting in assembly would never get up to the same level we would be in the entire length of the contract. I think that everyone doing the same job should get the same pay. This is a company that is making billions and we didn't ask for anymore than what we had in the previous contract. | ||
| Two_buells |
If it wasn't for AMF there would be no Harley today! or Buells! Cobradave...great post! If it wasn't for some great UNION employees from Wisconsin and York, Pa that took many concessions in the lean years there would be no Harley today! or Buells! Not to mention the non-traditional Union employees teams that had a big part in designing the Kansas City Assembly operation and new State of Art Softail Manufacturing plant in York. | ||
| Court |
Mike and Dave: Thanks for "real time" input. Regardless of where folks may come down personally on the issues, it's quite cool that two of you, in the midst of this, come here and factually state your case. Kudos and I do hope things work out for you. Personally, the two tier wage thing has historically never worked. Despite some interesting attempts in history, any time Ee' "A" and "B" are doing identical tasks to an identical standard and the single thing differentiating them is wage, something must eventually give. I have a problem, just me personally, with any system that constrains me from working to my full potential. . . . likely a big part of why I spent my career working for myself. Thanks to both of you for your contributions. Court (card carrying I.B.E.W. member since 1969) | ||
| Wolf102 |
watch harley move to right to work states like arizona where union is worthless | ||
| Two_buells |
some great support from our Union Brothers & Sisters in Milwaukee and KC..... Thank you York for doing what we in milwaukee could not. I also was one of the 536 no votes here, 2nd time around mind you. If invited, there are many of us who would like to come and join you and show our support and solidarity. As for Brian R. above, do you really think that the price of the bikes will come down if we give in to all these concessions. Go ahead and challenge the company to put that in writing and see what you get. They got a lot out of us here. Go and check the prices out now. Gimme a break. Troy -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ I was one of the 536 that rejected the companies proposal to the Milwaukee Union the second time. As sad as I am that many of my local brothers and sisters are spineless weinies, I also am proud that other H-D union members have the guts and foresight to stand up to the bean counters now running our company! Fight the good fight York! Those of us in Milwaukee with half a spine are with you all the way! Kurt -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ as a Milwuakee no voter! Please hold your(our)ground! We couldn't walk. It wasn't a bargaining think. Good luck, I have your back! andy -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Just wanted to let our brothers and sisters in York know that we in KC stand behind them 110%. STRONG WE STAND TOGETHER, WEAK WE FALL ALONE! wayne From one Harley worker out here in Milwaukee, let me say "right on brothers and sisters..." I am so glad you guys are doing what we did not have the right to do. (Our contract was not up and we did not have the right under our contract to strike) If you guys need any help at all please feel free to call our union. We will get money food...what ever you guys need while your out there holding the line. We will stick together. Jeff | 01.31.07 - 10:53 pm | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Like Jeff said we in Tomahawk stand behind you and are gald you are willing to make a stand. Let us know what we can do to help. WHen I left the plant this morning everyone was wearing red to show solidarity and support for you guys Stand strong. We just won with goodyear now it our turn. Steve | 02.01.07 - 8:56 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- its neither about money nor power...its now RESPECT. Before our contract was up the company LOCKED US OUT .now thats showing us isnt it ioleta sisson | 02.01.07 - 9:18 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- most people probably think that all we want is more,more, more. we are not cat! we just want what is fair and they are trying to take everything away from us and make it sound like we are greedy. this is not the case. this company is making BILLIONS and they want us to give up the things that make this company so great to work for! brett | 02.01.07 - 10:41 am | # -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Message edited by Two_Buells on February 02, 2007) | ||
| Cobradave93 |
Not only would these new hires only be paid less, but also would not be allowed to participate in benefits that we have. We are fighting for future workers, not ourselves. So is that greed on the union members side, or greed by the company to eventually wipe out current union members who helped make the company as successful as it is today. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Not only would these new hires only be paid less, but also would not be allowed to participate in benefits that we have. We are fighting for future workers, not ourselves. So is that greed on the union members side, or greed by the company to eventually wipe out current union members who helped make the company as successful as it is today. I don't want to step on your toes about where you stand, but this exactly how things work outside of a Union. I'm about to graduate college in May, and am currently interning at a major US Corporation. It doesn't matter where I go, I'm going to have to pay, out my own pocket, for health care. It's just how it works. I'm NEVER going to find any company that would offer me a pension (aside from working for the state, which requires me to join a Union), and if they did, it would be taken away from me soon after. My seniors will all have benefits that I can't have, including pensions for some. Times are changing. In fact, they've already changed. This stuff is going to suffocate the companies you work for. My significant other is a counselor in a state-funded school for special need kids. She makes $31,000 year with a MASTERS DEGREE, and pays $200/mo for health insurance. You guys have it pretty damned good either way. The Rotary telephone used to be state-of-the-art. Just because they used to charge $40 for one doesn't mean they still can. I honestly do wish everyone the best of luck in all of this. I know most have families to support, and I don't ever want to see Americans out of work, especially in the deteriorating manufacturing sector. I hope both sides can come to a reasonable agreement with little mess and life can carry on. | ||
| Nevrenuf |
i'm from the pittsburgh area and know what happens when things go over seas with the steel market. alot of people lost their homes, cars and had to relocate elsewhere. they were some pretty bad times for alot of people. although i'm not union now i still beleive in them if managed properly. what i've read so far it just seems like it's a survival thing more than a greed thing so i do wish you guys all the luck in the world. | ||
| Chasespeed |
I got a theory for everyone... This WILL get me flamed... For those that are not happy with their pay... Go join the armed forces.. Those that are unahppy with their benifits package, join the armed forces.. Unhappy? No offense to anyone, but there is no pitty here.. And this was a rather hot topic a twork this morning... Well, I need to head off to my OTHER job here in a few, to help pay to survive... Chase | ||
| Court |
>>>Those that are unahppy with their benifits package, join the armed forces.. I know I did. They paid for my college, a great chunck of my first house, I got a fat check each month WHILE going to school.....then they paid for my pilot's license (I remained a "student" for my first 120 hours and logged all trips as "practice") and then my instrument training. All this and they made me an Expert Marksman in my spare time. The military was, bar none, the best gig I ever had. | ||
| Stingaroo |
Chasespeed, good point, I got only 12 years till I retire. On a bad note that is not open for everyone. For instance Dad did his time 1966-1970, 2 1/2 of those years in Vietnam. I do not think that is an option open to him at the age of 61. Court, I agree, if it was not for the GI Bill, and 100% paid tuition through the PA Guard I never would have attended college. Brian | ||
| M2nc |
I use to hate Unions because I saw what they did to the auto industry in Cincinnati. They had one of the oldest assembly plants of GM making Cameros and Firebirds. As I was coming out of school they shut down the plant. The last year of production was their best ever, mostly because everyone actually showed up to work trying to save the plant. Back in 1977 these guys were making $22/hour, would call in sick all week and come in on the weekend for double time. The company could do nothing but close the door. When the Union tried to take over the plant and get it sold to Izuzu, GM came in one weekend and leveled it to the ground because they had their color test lab in this plant, a state or the art facility at the time worth millions and did not want to lose it to a competitor. It has taken me twenty years of education and work experience to match what an 18yo kid could make out of high school back in 1977. That said, I have seen what is happening to Manufacturing in America and Unions can help if they take a responsible roll in the company and this country. A strike should only happen in the worst of circumstances because it cost everyone big money and those big profits you are trying to get your hands on will not be there. Unions should be certifying their members, increasing the workers knowledge and training. Another area where Unions could be helpful is in monitoring foreign competition for unfair trade practices. A television manufacturer in the states just took the Chinese government to the World Trade Commission and won a judgement that imposes a large tariff on Chinese made televisions because they were flooding the market at a loss to run other manufacturers out of business. I would join such a Union! I think it would be fair for the Union in York to ask for larger profit sharing from Harley, but Pension Plans are considered a huge liability that will cost Harley not only operational cost but will actually lower their credit standing. The airline industry was forced by Banks to dump their pension plans before bail out loans would be approved. That left thousands of workers without retirement plans if they did not have something else on the side. My company just made the same switch but they made it optional. That way those that were close to retirement could keep it, while those of us with longer working time to go could switch to higher yield 401K plans that are ours - as in no company banker can take it from me! I can change jobs and take it with me. The company with also still give me my pension for ten years of service, I just will not continue to increase in seniority. All that change with no Union needed. I have more retirement and the company is happy because the profits today can pay for my retirement later and if profits are not their in the future, they are not sinking in a pension debt and I walk away with my money. Pensions are a thing of the past. (Message edited by M2nc on February 02, 2007) | ||
| Thansesxb9rs |
In the past 8 years I have worked for 3 large corporations. And this is what I have observed: 1) John Deere - Worked in a distribution plant, union would not budge on contract, distribution center shut down. (This had to do with pension and health care premiums). 2) Butler Mfg (Bluescope Steel saved their butts) - One of our large steel mfg plants would not budge on contracts even with pending bankruptcey, company acquired by Australian company, union plants that would not sign or agree to new contract shut down and moved. (This had to do with pension, health care premiums, and lower wage for new employees. Corporate employees from CEO to AP clerks did not receive a raise in the last 3 years leading up to this, plus all bonuses for corporate employees where taken away. 3) Current company outsourced union labor years ago and has had it largest profits ever and has been growing rapidly. All current employees are benefiting from a higher % raise every year. From what I have seen in my few short years is that the Union shops are going to have to understand that there is no room for free benefits nowdays unlike in the past. The funny thing is that most union's don't even recognize that the people to take the biggest hits first are the corporate employees. You just never read about it in the papers. Yes HD may be making large profits NOW!!! But do you really think it will last, they are loosing more and more market share every year. I bet that in 5 years the price of their bikes is down 25%. Sounds to me like the company is planning for the down turn that will happen the only question is how soon. I hate to say it but $18hr as a starting wage is not too shabby. I would hate to see everyone there loose their jobs over future employees, not only will the workers suffer but so will the economy of the town (depending on its size) if HD decides to close the plant and move operations. Sometimes it is easier and less costly for a company to cut it's losses and move shop. Most people never think this will happen but I have seen it done twice in the last 6 years. It is going to be the wave of the future, when a company can't get what it wants for a certain price where it is at it will look else where and find it. | ||
| Slaughter |
We voted our union out a few years back. We now have the ability to be paid on merit and guess what, the deadwood is falling behind. We have more flexibility in our working circumstances - hours/flex time. Better pay. Still have good relations with the IAM Union on the floor. Sure medical costs are rising... welll DUUUUUuuuh! I still carry my own policy so I can afford to race and go to the ER - no regrets, it's saved me a hundred thousand bucks on one trip. | ||
| Reepicheep |
M2nc... My wifes grandpa worked at that Cincinnati plant during that time. | ||
| Schmitty |
I work for Pierce Mfg. and we are the largest manufacturer of fire and rescue products in the U.S. Guess what, no union!! The starting pay that the York assemblers are getting took me 8 years to achieve at Pierce. All while our company turned enormous amounts of profit. And health benefits for free?!! Get real, with the cost of health care these days, hasn't anyone learned a lesson from the UAW's greed? Look at what has happened to the American auto industry. Sure Harley is turning record profits now, but inevitably that too will come to an end. Wise up fellas, it's the year 2007 and nothing is free anymore. And the funniest part about this whole issue is this. When Harley decides to build an assembly plant in Mexico, or China to take advantage of the cheaper labor, you guys will have the nerve to blame Harley when you lose your job. I know this post will probably get me burned at the stake, but I have a right to my opinion. I don't wish to see anyone lose their job, and I wish both side of this situation the best. Schmitty | ||
| Court |
What an interesting theory . . .  | ||
| Two_buells |
What an interesting theory . . . I love it! SO CLOSE TO THE TRUTH! Inventory at the dealers are high..... Its winter, sales are slow...... The last time H-D announced a cut in production projections Wall Street Beat them to a pulp! makes you say...HMMMMM Opps! I see a Black Helicopter flying by....I gota turn off all my Electonic equipment | ||
| Two_buells |
OH yea, HOG closed up on Friday Feb 2: 70.10 +1.34 (1.95%) | ||
| Blake |
Inappropriate anonymous post removed. |
