| Author |
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Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 05:22 pm: | 
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I believe there is some 'free play' in the Free Spirit belt tensioner.
Could this be adjusted to suit race conditions and perhaps utilizing the need for less belt changes when changing pulley sizes, maybe?
Rocket |
Timbo
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 06:24 pm: |
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I believe there is some 'free play' in the Free Spirit belt tensioner.
Could this be adjusted to suit race conditions and perhaps utilizing the need for less belt changes when changing pulley sizes, maybe?
Or, could this be opening up a whole new can of worms that would require additional testing and development?
I dunno, just occurred to me while reading the above posts.
Timbo |
Sokota
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 07:43 pm: |
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Adjustable tension pulley would be a new design , not modified stock pulley , with an adjustment range 1.5 to 2 inches. Would need a tension measuring tool to adjust to spec. Does a tensioned belt system give up HP to a chain drive? |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 08:48 pm: |
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Or, could this be opening up a whole new can of worms
Timbo, seeing as you've quoted my post, I take it the 'can of worms' reference is to suggest another argument on my part? That's not going to happen.
You know, this place is often likened to a pub but I doubt anyone ever really thinks how much it really isn't like a pub when we start bickering amongst ourselves. If it were, half the arguments here wouldn't exist because the comments made that started them would be seen and taken in the context they were meant in. The internet unfortunately requires a more delicate touch at times than the local pub table, and the net doesn't serve pints!
I didn't want to get into one with the Buell guys or Court, but trying to convey that when someone's got your back up isn't easy. More so when you feel you've been made to look a fool.
As for the topic in hand.........
I'd like to see Buell put that XBRR into a street bike, with a slipper clutch and belt drive. Such high torque and horse power is wasted on a track only Buell. It's also nice to have the trick parts, such as the slipper clutch, and have it run with a belt drive. Chains should be a thing of the past in this day and age. Todays belts are high tech components. They make a lot more sense on a modern performance motorcycle than a metal chain does that saps horse power and needs some form of lubrication.
As an example, if the XBRR was run as a street version it could \ would soak up some cost in development and production of parts like slipper clutches and alternate ratio pulleys, suitable belt(s) and tensioner's, which would cross over to the race XBRR. At least that would be my assumption based on no experience in the matter what so ever. So don't flame me.
Am I alone in thinking an XB1350S-RR with twin throttle bodies, slipper clutch and belt drive would sell as many as Buell could build? That's what I've waited 8 years for - an underdog for the road, not the track.
Rocket |
Ortegakid
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 09:24 pm: |
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Oh my *^%^&%$^ god, I agree with rocketman for once!
Nothing could be finer than to have a buell xbrr for the street!, and yes the techno would trickle, very rapidly, me thinks!
Well said rocket!, have a Mcewans scotch ale on me! |
Henrik
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 09:25 pm: |
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There would issues beyond the adjustable pulley; part of the Buell belt and pulley design keeps the belt at constant tension throughout the swingarm range of motion.
Changing belt and pulley sizes and moving the axle and tension pulley to accommodate the gearing ranges necessary would probably make constant belt tension impossible - making rear axle adjustment necessary and make tension pulley location questionable.
Henrik |
Sokota
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 10:07 pm: |
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Henrik, this is all hypotetical, but ideally the belt size would not have to change, axel position would be fixed,small gearing changes acomplished at rear pulley ,larger gearing changes at front pulley [as in one, posibly two teeth smaller or larger,rear pulley possibly up to 4 teeth both ways] thus the needed adjustable range of the tension pulley is kept to a minimum.Same suspension arc.It could happen ,just takes develoment $$$. Therfor Chains are for racing....belts are for sissys...err I mean street bikes. 
(Message edited by sokota on March 26, 2006)
(Message edited by sokota on March 26, 2006) |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 10:59 pm: |
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Well I don't know much at all about the XB Buells but I do know the belt when in tension Buell style is bloody tight. I always thought this had a bearing (no pun intended) in rear wheel bearing issues, but that's just me. So if you feel the belt tension in a Free Spirit application, it makes one wonder why Buell didn't do likewise as it appears to be less severe in tension. I'm sure there's an extremely valid engineering standpoint that I'm not party to, but the Free Spirit tensioner must open up some possibility of interchangeability (that big word again), no matter how slight, in order to give some difference in ratio allowance, given the Free Spirits seemingly more available movement.
Rocket |
Timbo
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 12:33 am: |
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Rocket,
No thought of argument. I was just thinking out loud.
Maybe "can of worms" was a bad choice of words (that whole intention lost in the internet thing) but it does describe what I was thinking.
I would think switching to a belt final drive system would be major when you consider the need for flexibility in gear ratio selection, and it may raise more issues than it solves, initially anyway, that's why I wondered if additional testing and development might be needed to make such a big switch (if they neglected to do so, and ran into more trouble, how bad would that make them look?). What about tooth durability on the belt under such loads? Would the belt have enough "give" to realize any real world benefit from making such a switch? What about pit stop tire changes (Daytona only), would a belt system make it more cumbersome and take more time? These and many more variables would be raised.
Like I said, I dunno the answers, but it would need to be looked into and analyzed.
All of this would set the program back further and add more cost.
Also consider that the current drive may be close to being dialed in anyway, at least it sounds that way.
As far as street application is concerned, I agree 100%, but for now, the topic at hand is the race bike version of the XBRR.
Timbo |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 12:48 am: |
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I could see potential problems at Daytona with belts do to the belt's sensitivity to rough handling.
How many belt failures have been attributed to lack of due care when changing tires?
Just a thought. Not a condemnation of anyones ideas. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 05:40 am: |
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Also consider that the current drive may be close to being dialed in anyway, at least it sounds that way.
Yes Timbo, this is close to the heart of the topic and perhaps very true, which leads us back to the cush drive thing. I have no thoughts on such as I know nothing technical about what is required for these set-ups.
Rocket |
Henrik
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 10:14 am: |
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Mark; can't come up with fancy engineering drawings, but I think changing pulley size front or rear would mess up the "balance" of belt tension built into the stock belt/pulley/idler system. I think it would require a major re-design to accomplish with a belt, what is already do-able with chain.
Would be pretty cool. Thought Daytona, as mentioned would likely be out of the question with a belt.
Henrik |
Jimidan
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 11:08 am: |
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"I could see potential problems at Daytona with belts do to the belt's sensitivity to rough handling.
How many belt failures have been attributed to lack of due care when changing tires?"
The decision to use chains instead of belts for racing was dependent on ease of changing final drive gear ratios. The new belts are not fragile, and in fact, are very resilient. They can withstand all kinds of torture without breaking, including rocks being poured into the belt/sprocket while turning (demonstrated in testing for the Uly). Think about all of the applications where belts are being used these days...like to turn blowers on dragsters, to turn valve trains on all kinds of OHC engines, and secondary and final drive on motorcycles.
jimidan |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 03:20 pm: |
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The FACTORY SPEC.'s are too "TIGHT" for
BELTS therfore they would not make 25 miles of RACING STRESS at DAYTONA if they even made that !!! |
M1combat
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 03:32 pm: |
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Care to back that up Lafy? Have you looked at the XB setup?
I'm not saying they'd make it through Daytona (only because I don't have the means to prove it), but 25 miles? Come on man... |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 04:02 pm: |
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I think LaFayette is referring to the tube frame specs. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 06:03 pm: |
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I know... but they don't run tube frames in the Daytona 200. |
Shazam
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 01:05 am: |
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"I think changing pulley size front or rear would mess up the balance of belt tension built into the stock belt/pulley/idler system. I think it would require a major re-design to accomplish with a belt, what is already do-able with chain."
I am running a set of Freespirits Pulleys on my xb, down three teeth in rear and up one in front..... on a stock "fragile" '03 belt.....no problems
with 107 lb/ft of torque....
I also think they make a set that is three up in the rear....
what's the question? |
Jimidan
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 12:30 pm: |
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We had some fun with this topic on another site so I thought I would give you guys a shot.
So I was in the XBRR pits and said, "Ya' know Henry, the first thing I thought when I saw the XBRR was that I wanted one. And I am an old man. If it can raise the passion in my old body, it surely must have the young bucks in a complete rut. Think that Buell marketing has any plans to make a production repli-racer out of this thing?"
Henry replied without blinking an eye. "No, there is no market for it". How does he know? I just told him that as a consumer, that I thought there was, but he summarily dismissed it as if I had no idea what I was talking about. Typical HD MoCo arrogance, or learned prognostication?
What do you guys think? Would an XBRR repli-racer sell?
I think we can assume that when I said a "production" model of the XBRR, that it would be detuned (but keep the basic engine configuration) to meet the EPA limits. Hell, the race bike is certainly quiet enough now to meet the noise standards. They could use projection headlights and LED tail/marker lights without messing up the looks.
It wouldn't necessarily have to have the Ohlins, but Ducati and others are starting to make premium bikes available with them, so maybe offer them as an option.
Back to the original question though, is a repli-racer XBRR a feasible model? It would sure clear up any question about whether it is a legal FX bike.
One comment on the other site was, "Buell is becoming increasingly more popular with the younger crowd; a repli-racer would definitely have a market.
If Buell can rack up a few podium finishes, the call for one would be deafening."
So if the deafening call for a repli-racer occurs in the Harley Davidson forest where nobody is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
jimidan |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 12:59 pm: |
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There's no market for the XBRR save for in the AMA...
That said...
Is there a market for an XB1350R?
Engine cases, caliper, same body work as the current "R", "R"/"Uly" frame, Ohlins all around, X1 tach with a small digital speedo that you can barely see, No ram air, mag wheels if they are legal...
Essentially an "R" with the "RR" cases, bore/stroke, heads and running 115-120 RWHP... I'd buy one AND I'd keep my 12R.
They have to. I think the AMA will make them or already has. Just MO... |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 02:45 pm: |
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>>>>Typical HD MoCo arrogance, or learned prognostication?
From Henry Duga? You must have been drinking.
My guess is that if he dismissed the question, without appearing to give it a heck of a lot of thought, that two things come into play.
First, Henry would have, nor want, anything to do with that element of the business.
Second, unless things have changed since I first met Henry at the races years ago, I'll bet he was fairly busy.
You will see a great deal of the XBRR filter to the street. Absent that the case for proceeding with the project never would have held up.
Court |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 03:30 pm: |
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"You will see a great deal of the XBRR filter to the street. Absent that the case for proceeding with the project never would have held up. "
Word.
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Race_pirate
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 03:40 pm: |
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As much as it would be cool on the "Kick A$$" meter, I would guess that the MoCo would keep things as they are. Buell is producing a real world, reliable belt driven bike. Lets say for every 3000 sold maybe 1 or 2 of us go ahead and race it. Now for the cool part, most people that get a Buell make it their own by making it a race replica, pimped bling-cycle, hooligan bike, chopper, etc.. but at the heart its still a Buell with the owners stink on it. I would imagine that the S models are probably the top seller, and at this time I cant see Buell or the MoCo changing up the format for such a low percentage of people willing to buy that kinda bike. (And I wish the other FX teams would realize aside from the engine, its really all XB.) Suspension, bodywork & chaindrive are all things you can do on your own to create your own XBRR.
I really believe that the XBRR move is brave and really a milestone, something will trickle down. Its not like Buell has 300 engineers working all day on making the previous years bike obsolete like the Metric companies, but I truly feel that the pond is shrinking and somebody is not the small fish anymore, or atleast thats whats in the making.
Would I like to see a street version of the XBRR, sure..... |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 04:00 pm: |
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The XBRR certainly has a market outside the AMA. Why wouldn't folks buy an XBRR to run in Supertwins against the Milles, 998s and 999s? All of the other bikes are expensive, too, and wouldn't it be fun to give them a run for their money? Or what about in FUSA Superbike? Looking at lap times, it would be competitive there. If I wasn't too old and slow, I'd sure get one! |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 04:17 pm: |
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Harvey Mushman is the name Steve McQueen used as a race name to sign up with !!!
You are now FAMOUS !!! |
Race_pirate
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 04:22 pm: |
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Ya... But what was his racing number???? |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 04:49 pm: |
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Sorry... I guess I shouldn't have said just "AMA" as I really meant all the classes it's competitive in. I just meant that the "RR" isn't street legal, so there's no market for it on the road . There is certainly a market for an XB1350R though... |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 04:54 pm: |
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Cool, Steve McQueen is visiting BadWeB from beyond. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 05:48 pm: |
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Summoned back by Sheryl Crow. Why didn't someone tell me she was a little wierd before I made the trip?! |
Buellistic
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 06:14 pm: |
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M1combat:
"PLEASE", never give up !!! |
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