| Author |
Message |
    
Shazam
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 02:05 pm: | 
|
I have a race license
the .pdf does not ask for one though? |
Shazam
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 02:08 pm: |
|
let me rephrase,
Don, what makes you think I would need a race license? and where are you getting your info? conjecture? |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 02:11 pm: |
|
As a racer, you do NOT need a dealer affiliation but it just makes sense that you should. Travelling a couple hours once or twice a month to support your racing habit is the smallest of the payments in time, money and blood you're making to race.
You must use a dealer to order the parts for you since Buell Racing is NOT setup for retail sales. This is OUTSIDE the Buell and HD sales chain. Again, this stuff is all "race only" parts and are non-VIN. Those parts sold to the licesned racers through dealers are usually stamped "race only"
If your dealer sells race-only parts to a non-racer, I bet they get cut off at the knees if word ever got out.
The reason that as a racer you SHOULD be tied to a dealer is that you CAN get discounts if the dealer sees merit in having you as a racer running their logo. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 02:15 pm: |
|
And yes, as a licensed racer any/all parts will be available to you.
We're trying to get Bartels or Glendale to pick up a set of the twin 61mm throttle bodies and other induction goodies for our two main bikes. I believe that once Daytona is done and the current bikes headed for Barber are provided for, some of the parts are going to start becoming available but realize this is early in a very limited production effort.
(DISCLAIMER: The above is just my opinion/observations and DOES NOT indicate that I have any inside track on Buell MoCo policy) |
Shazam
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 02:21 pm: |
|
Don't get me wrong I could probably arrange a relationship with "a" dealer for what I want, but as that dealership will more than likely be a place I have never walked into or at the very least am ever likely to walk into (solely based on the fact that there are "maybe" two dealerships I have close enough ties with to pull it off and both are a thousand miles from OZ), it would be difficult for anyone to justify me being able to get parts off a race truck and Buell billing said dealership for whatever I want.... yeah, right?
does that make sense? |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 02:21 pm: |
|
"If your dealer sells race-only parts to a non-racer, I bet they get cut off at the knees if word ever got out. "
Mostly just because that's the way I understand the situation as well. I'm sure there will be ways to get the parts as a non-racer, but it may be dangerous to the dealer so you'll need to find the "right" one. |
Shazam
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 02:29 pm: |
|
There are a number of parts on the RR that would not necessitate "RACE ONLY" being stamped on them.... |
Shazam
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 02:55 pm: |
|
Steve,
Great to finally meet you and thanks for the input. Anyone in the know, know? Court? Don't make me call Erik... |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 03:09 pm: |
|
Sort of...
I imagine that any part that's not on a homologated street bike has to have "race use only" stamped into it. Essentially, if it's not the part that was included on the bike when the EPA approved it, it's a no go. |
Tbs_stunta
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 04:34 pm: |
|
I thought I was being clear in my question, but not so let me try again. Perhaps answering the first response will explain my point better.
>>I dunno. Why doesn't Honda, or Yamaha do that?
They don;t have to since you can buy a street legal 600RR and R6.
Buell had to know that there would be controversy over the XBRR since it isn't an actual street bike while. Honda has a street 600RR which the race bike is based on; there is no street XBRR.
So why didn't Buell design the XBRR's parts as a full race kit so then they could have the same claim. I'm not even talking about privateer availability, what I'm talking about is eliminating any controversy by making the race kit something you can do to an XB12R.
The way I see it, if the XBRR weren't a separate motorcycle and you could buy a, really extensive, 150hp race kit there would be no controversy. Honda and the others would still whine, but they couldn't claim the rules were bent by the AMA to favor and American motorcycle. Something that has happened in the past with the TZ750 flat trackers.
Anyone still not understand my question?
(Message edited by tbs_stunta on March 15, 2006) |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 04:41 pm: |
|
You can.
We DO understand your question (or I do anyway). YOU don't understand that you CAN get all of those parts over the counter. It's just better IMO (and apparently the opinion of BMC) to be able to buy the bike ready to go instead of buying an XB12R and then sinking another $20-25K into it and having to do all the work yourself.
Those parts aren't EPA approved. THAT is the reason you need a race license. Not because Buell doesn't want you to have the parts for the street, but because the EPA doesn't want you to have the parts for the street.
Buying race parts or or changing any existing part in ANY way that will effectively change the emissions is illegal. Buell doesn't want to be on the wrong side of the law. Race licenses are "reasonably" easy to get. Go get one. Problem solved. |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 04:44 pm: |
|
"The way I see it, if the XBRR weren't a separate motorcycle and you could buy a, really extensive, 150hp race kit there would be no controversy."
I agree. Buell should have built a kit that would bolt onto/into a stock engine and into a stock frame. Then there would not be much of a leg to stand on for anyone protesting. |
Shazam
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 04:50 pm: |
|
If an '07 Buell is announced that is based on the XBRR frame and cases then haven't they accomplished the same thing, but with more free advertising? purely speculation....
sorry I got on the tangent train... it peaked my interest. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 05:02 pm: |
|
You guys do realize there would be controversy anyway solely based on displacement.
The web pundits cannot grasp the concept of swept area, or they refuse to acknowledge it. |
Blublak
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 05:08 pm: |
|
OK, I get it.. Let me try and help you understand it..
Buell (and this is just supposition on my part, really, based on what I've read and heard) was trying to give the privateers something that say a small team, like Walt Sipp(and his wife and the occasional friend)or Pete Alesso could purchase and run the next day. The idea was they (Buell) would do all the modifications for you. The bike IS a street bike.. Just not like you are trying to think of one. It's POST modification for racing, so it's not street legal. if you pay attention to the rules, you'll see that it is, indeed an XB (which is a street legal bike). Then, it was modified, to the extreme. This was done "In House" and then put up for sale to the (racing) public.
If, a privateer had say.. $120K for exhaust (per bike) and could afford the full time team of eight or more techs for the two bikes per riders they run in a series, plus the private trainer for them, plus the multiple 18 wheelers to haul the parts store and full machine shop with them to every test and venue, as well as the catering services, massage therapist (and the list goes on) then I'd say, yeah, make the unobtainium parts and sell them only to 'special' race teams that are 'pre-approved'. That's what the CBR600RR that runs FX is. It's no where near the bike they sell to the public. You're being fooled by a simple graphic. Sure, the body is the same shape and painted the same. That's about it I would think. (think stock car.. what's stock on those?) does that help clear up the idea of a 'street' bike racing in FX? the Hondas are a purpose built machine. More so then the Buell since those bikes will not run ANY other race class except the one they are built for.
This is not the idea behind the double R. This bike is something that, should I suddenly get VERY fast and need to be able to compete on the higher levels.. Well, I can buy it, load it on my trailer and go racing.. and stand a chance of being competitive without having to rob banks in between races. With the proper parts (which are coming out) I could also take this bike and race CCS/ASRA as well as AMA FX, so the machine is more multi purpose then the IL4 factory FX machines.
Even teams like Liberty H-D (while a very nice effort and Anthony is a great rider with a ton of potential and the dealer is great for pouring all that support into the effort) don't have the kind of money needed to compete on a 'one on one' basis with factory bikes.
Did this help any? |
What_the
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 05:22 pm: |
|
Tbs_Stunta... The real short answer is "convenience".
The above was talked about in the road racing world article and the winter dealer meeting.
Want a kit of parts to bolt to your stock XB chassis? Get your hands on a parts book and feel free to order what ever you wish. The parts will be available to those wishing to race.
One will be able to buy the modified 1338cc Thunderstorm engine. Contrary to some uninformed observations, it does bolt right up to a stock chassis, stock isolators, and stock tie bars. |
Tbs_stunta
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 05:24 pm: |
|
M1, it doesn't matter if its easier to do it one way if that is the source of the controversy and possible rules violation. If having everything as a race kit would have made the bikes super legit then why not go that route?
I know the parts aren't EPA, that is the reason the XBRR is a separate bike and that is the reason for the controversy.
Shazam, exactly, but unless that happens there will be the same controversy as soon as the XBRRs start approaching pole. And every victory for Buell will be dismissed as a rules violation. |
Tbs_stunta
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 05:33 pm: |
|
Blublak, I'm not saying do it this way or the other way is outrageously expensive. It doesn't matter if this is more convenient if every victory is dismissed as a rules violation which it will be unless there is a street bike that has been modified.
I'm not being fooled by anything, I know the japanese bikes are wildly modified, which is the point of the series, but the fact remains that there is a street legal bike called the 600RR, and that;s the bike that has been kitted out. Buell should have done the same thing. Stick their big bad racing parts in what was once a XB-12R and race that. But since the XB RR is separate motorcycle its not the same thing. |
Curtyd
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 05:37 pm: |
|
"Why Mr Higgins, I think he's got it!"
A japanese factory racebike being available to any member of the public for purchase is exactly like saying I can buy a NASCAR Stock Car at my local dealer.
If didn't hurt anything that AMA had already made the exception years ago so the VR1000 could, albeit unsuccessfully, compete. I sure like the poster above who notes that there are 2007-looking VIN numbers on the RR's at Daytona.
Does that mean next year sometime I can have my 400 lb, SX torque-touring monster? Just please don't make it 31K dollars, OK? 1340cc, belt drive, fiberglass body, gel seat, integrated saddlebags, tail trunk and an upright but still sporty ride position.
OK, I'll give up the integrated luggage I like my soft luggage set-up now pretty darn well after 1000's of miles. Just give the Uly rack and a pillion cover.
Dear Elves, my inseam is 30" so please don't make my legs bend as much as on my current XB9 nor stretch on my tippy-toes as high as the Uly. My last few cross-state jaunts have been a little hard on these 51 y/o legs.
Ho, ho, ho, XMAS in July?!?! |
Tbs_stunta
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 05:58 pm: |
|
This has nothing to do with Buell offering an affordable race bike. I'm still wondering why Buell didn't do it as a race kit to avoid the controversy.
Doesn't matter how affordable the bike is if its dismissed as a rules violation. |
What_the
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 06:02 pm: |
|
What part of ordering the parts for your XBR isn't coming through via an RR parts book?
Rules violation? Says who? Kevin Erion? Dean Adams?
You need to filter this down to exactly what bothers you about the RR. So far, you are being way to general. Start here, none of the bikes raced at the D200 or FX are street legal. Start at the ending point instead of of the beginning in your mind.
What grids in FX? An Erion or factory Honda "kitted up" 600RR isn't the answer I am looking for, because that's a bigger stretch than an XBR to an XBRR, unless you are four racers that live on this great planet we call earth.
I believe there's now less to focus on.
There's a street legal version of the XBRR called an XB12R, and here we go..... |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 06:07 pm: |
|
TBS -
Why do you need a "race kit"?
Call Henry Duga and say "I would like to make my XB12R as competitive in FX as I can please. Thank you."
He'll give you a list of parts that you need (this is your "race kit"). Take that to a dealership (preferably Appleton or any of our other wonderful dealer sponsors) and tell them which part numbers you need. They may indeed ask for a race license. Pay the money, get the parts, install them, go race.
Brilliant... a custom, easy to get "race kit" for every Buell racer. The WORLD will change  .
What MORE do you need? OH... You need the extra Fuel capacity too... I'll bet they'll sell you the frame with the Uly side rails as well.
You've spent a good deal of money now... Too bad Buell won't just sell you a whole bike so you can forget the whole "roll your own" thing. Oh wait... They took care of that TOO .
Please try that at Honda as well (unless your last name is Erion... then I suppose it MIGHT work). Let us know how it goes . |
Tbs_stunta
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 06:16 pm: |
|
>>Start at the ending point instead of of the beginning in your mind.
Machiavelli is not a river in Egypt.
Starting at the end is irrelevant because the controversy is centered around the beginning.
>>Rules violation? Says who? Kevin Erion? Dean Adams?
Honda for starters, you know the guys who were going to protest the bikes and still will when Buell beats enough of their bikes.
I don't see how I'm being too general, the fact that the XBRR is a separate, and non-street legal, motorcycle is the problem. Sell an XB-RR race kit that is fitted to a XB12R and there is no problem.
Is that specific enough? |
Davegess
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 06:19 pm: |
|
TBS, the factory FX bikes are not kitted out street bikes. They are built form sratch as race bikes. They hve never been anywhere near an assembly line. The only difference between Duhamals Honda and the XBRR, ignoring the $300000 price difference, is that the XBRR can be bought either as a complet bike or as the parts to make your XB12R into an RR. Most of the Honda parts cannot be bought by anyone. And no one can buy those bikes. The XBRR is way closer to the street bike it is based on than ANY of the factory inline 4's.
The can protest, once, and then the AMA will say if it is cheating. The protest can be appealed then the storyis over. If Buell loses the protest or appeals then you can talk aboout people calling them "cheaters" but if Buell wins the protest then whay would anyone think they are cheating.
Protests happen every year in racing. Sometimes people get caught cheating sometimes they don't. Sometimes people get away with cheating sometimes they don't. That's racing. People get as close to the edge as they dare. Sometimes they go over. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 06:34 pm: |
|
"I don't see how I'm being too general, the fact that the XBRR is a separate, and non-street legal, motorcycle is the problem. Sell an XB-RR race kit that is fitted to a XB12R and there is no problem. "
Dude.
The XBRR is an XB12R with a bunch of go fast goodies on it.
Please read my previous post. Are you looking for a "RR Race Kit" for an XB12R? If so... Please call Henry Duga and get on the list. Better yet, just buy an "RR". If you want to go the hard route and modify an XB12R into an XBRR then be my guest, it's possible. It's the hard way though (but if you need to be "previously" street legal then it's the only way).
Just for the record (and I don't recall whether or not I could trust the source exactly) but the "RR" engine should be right around $14-16K. After that you'll need suspenders, wheels, bodywork, tail section, welded in frame rails, caliper, pads, controls, tach, chain conversion. All that stuff will bolt right onto an XB12R frame (seems how the RR frame IS an XB12R frame...).
If you want a "race kit" then go buy a damn "RR". It's an XB12R that is modified to be FX legal. It's NOT an entirely new bike.
IT'S A ••••••• XB12R. |
Curtyd
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 06:41 pm: |
|
Look, if the question is "why did Buell do it this way", then here is the answer.
Because they could.
The exception approval was already a done-deal as I understand. It had been done for the VR1000 and it was a green light again. Also selling a complete bike and bringing it to production in this time frame was presumably to get whole bikes racing that were BUELLS, not haphazard kit bikes that were thrown together differently by every team. BUELL obviously can't yet afford a full factory based race effort being the little player they are in this scheme of things, so they actually innovated the next best thing, a factory modified/built racebike that they would support every way they can until the $$ start rolling in, if and when they start winning and selling more bikes. You think if they start winning races we aren't going to see a replica in the showrooms? They are a minor player, not even a player really, not yet, in this motorsport world.
So, AMA, Daytona Speedway, and other interested parties would LOVE to tap into the 500 thousand bikers in Daytona who primarily drive these darn pushrod V-Twins and get them off Main Street and drop 45 whole dollars to see these HD twins race. Something needs to jumpstart moto racing soon in the USA, because right now and for the last 20 years we are primarily a charity event that Daytona and other track owners put up with while their revenue sides depend on NASCAR and INDY Car racing.
Did I like that the Superbikes aren't racing the 200? NO, but I personally put that on Mladin's whining about tire/track safety more than anyone else. Do I like the AMA keeping FIM Grand Prix roadracing out of this country for 30 years? Not on your life.
Do you get it? The BUELL FX racing issue was a done deal before one bike came off the computer screens. Erik and the Elves are trying to make a factory sponsored impact with the limited budget HD is allowing to them, make a bike a HD dealership can get behind out-of-the-box, racetrack owners are making a bid for racefans of the HD riders who control most of the market right now.
Heck, it's all a gamble, just like all the goings on over at AMA, right now. Let's hope something works or we will be stuck watching all of our world class racing on the "boob tube", OK? |
Dbird29
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 06:52 pm: |
|
I'm getting the feeling that tbs_stunta isn't really wanting to buy a race bike no matter the brand.
 |
Tbs_stunta
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 07:16 pm: |
|
M1, I'm not buying a bike I'm just trying to have a debate of the choices made. I know you can buy the race parts and fit them in a 12, which is why I initially asked why Buell didn't go that route. The XBRR isn't an XB12 unless there is an XB12 VIN on the frame, which from my understanding is the case with the other team's bikes. Its the technicality of the matter and that technicality is what's causing the controversy.
It was also my understanding that the other team's bikes came off the assembly line; the Yamahas have an R6 VIN on their frame. They never saw one street mile and were taken right away and tuned but at some point they were bikes that met emissions and noise regs. Do we know for a fact that this isn't the case, it doesn't matter that the final race bike is nowhere close to a street bike, its just that at some point it was a streetbike and that's how they skirt the technicalities.
So relax guys, I'm not slamming Buell and I'm not accusing them of anything I'm just trying to debate the technicalities of the issue. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 07:21 pm: |
|
vin numbers can easily be assigned at the factory level. They could stamp an RR as a blast and it wouldn't make it a blast. |
Davegess
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 07:30 pm: |
|
I think the XBRR has a XB12 vin
NONE of the factory FX bikes or the superbikes ever saw an assembly line. NOne ever existed as street legal motorcycles. They are ALL buil in th erace shop from parts. They use the least amount of stock parts thaey can get away with.
They are only compalining because they might lose. |
|
XBRR Threads Consolidated Here! »
XBRR Factory Strategy »
Archive through March 15, 2006