| Author |
Message |
    
Bluzm2
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 10:57 am: | 
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Scott,
You nailed it. It's very difficult to simulate wheel chatter on decel while on a dyno.
It's not just the reverse load, it's the additional shock generated by the chatter.
I would imagine that the forces generated are quite substantial, very sharp and alot of them in a short period (a couple of seconds during each corner approach).
Racing improves the breed. The next clutches will be much better.
Count on it.
Brad |
Sarodude
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 11:21 am: |
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Thanks Anonymous!
I had a double downer yesterday. Slowly watching the Buells drop out was the big one. A little more coverage woulda been cool too. The little pre-race thing with McWilliams was alright - but how about an interview with Erik, Cicotto (who's been racing Buells for some time), or maybe an HD / Buell powertrain dude (Mr. Ponytail?).
Then when Duhamel highsided... I was already in the dumps and didn't need that. I like the guy.
I think it was a good first showing. I was simply hoping for at least one Buell to round out the top 10. That woulda made my day.
Keep up the good work guys!
-Saro |
Az_m2
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 11:31 am: |
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I'm not into racing and don't know too much about it, but I would expect things to only get better for Buell Racing. It had to be tough to jump right into the big show.
This program can only be good for the Buell brand and us street bike owners! |
Mr_cuell
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 01:01 pm: |
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That makes sense on the clutch wheel chatter thing - hadn't thought of that.
On a brighter note I rode my XB today, and regardless of who finished where, it put a big grin on my face! Race results can't change that! |
Curtyd
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 01:11 pm: |
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You should have seen the chain slack in person. All the Buells that ran had chains bouncing up and down like a whipped noodle. You could HEAR the slapping. They must have been trying to compensate for something wrong in there in the primary drive. Didn't work to well. Very disappointed they couldn't make the distance, and they couldn't apparently even make decent pit stops.
(Message edited by CURTYD on March 12, 2006) |
Scott_in_nh
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 01:51 pm: |
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On a brighter note I rode my XB today, and regardless of who finished where, it put a big grin on my face! Race results can't change that!
Now you're talking! I had my 1st ride on my new to me 99 S3 yesterday, which was my 1st ride ever on any Buell! Went for my 2nd this morning  to say I like it would be an understatement!
Very disappointed they couldn't make the distance, and they couldn't apparently even make decent pit stops.
I can admit that it would have been great if they finished the race, but they showed they could run in the top ten, that is a great start!
They weren't the only ones with bad pitstops, I'm sure there were dozens of bad stops we didn't see, but I do remember a yamaha with a real long one, and Honda didn't even have the common sense to have tape ready after Duhamel's crash! Doh!! Or they could have shown real genius and chosen to change out a crashed helmet (and been ready for it).
Bad stops happen to every team, in every kind of racing, at every level... |
Pupu
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 02:25 pm: |
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thats true, i mean hondas pit grabbed a folded piece of duct tape to try and fix his helmet visor, i mean even in the heat of the moment, you have think that the guy would have known that would not work.
Buell did as good as they could for that race, it will get better, i mean if it was that easy, everyone would do it
and it take a big mess like the one pit stop to make things happen, hopefully they will practice alot more. i have seen the practices for the nascar pit crews and let me tell you, that is not a job for just anybody, there is a huge amount of pressure, and they practice for hours a day just to save 1/10 of a second. just takes time, and there is always plenty of that. |
Aeholton
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 06:40 pm: |
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Just got back from a weekend at Daytona. Gotta say I was impressed with the way McWilliams rode the Buell. It's a shame he had to drop out. Will be interesting seeing the Buells in shorter races this season. I was quite impressed with what I did see. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 07:24 pm: |
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The driveline was taking a hammering from tire chatter going into corners -- something that would have been eliminated if we had gotten a slipper clutch finished in time. We tested one up to qualifying, but it wasn't consistent enough -- yet -- to run. The slipper also made the bike quicker; Jeremy picked up almost a second a lap with it.
I think it's inexcusable to have a rider of McWilliams caliber, a race effort as heady as the Daytona 200 warrants, and a company of Buells standing both financially and capability wise, to have a slipper clutch become the point of success or not.
These things have been around for several years. Have successfully found their way from high horse power racing Ducati's onto production street bikes, and are available over the counter to fit many a bike, and here are Buell in the shite because they didn't have one that worked.
This might upset a lot of die hards here but I'm not impressed that EB being the guru engineer that he is could allow the slipper clutch be the weakest link on McWilliams XBRR, especially so when it was know a slipper clutch was also worth a second a lap. I could think of a number of companies that could have supplied a slipper clutch capable of the job. Why couldn't a simpler solution be found? Like adapting a Ducati slipper or similar? What crap!
Rocket |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 08:10 pm: |
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Hindsight is 20/20.
Am I the only one here is feels that Erik Buell owes me, well, nothing? |
Brianh
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 08:37 pm: |
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Mr. Anon,
Am I understanding you correctly? It was wheel chatter that caused the primary chains to fail? So, when they were failing at the Texas tests McNaughton's idea of using a single chain was pointed to? After all the testing you guys did it took you until the mid-point of the race to figure out that there was a problem with the primary?
I'm not big on excuses. This one looks pretty bad to me. 4 entries in the biggest bike race in America and 4 DNF's. That's a disaster on so many different levels. It ticks me off personally because I was really starting to root for McWilly out there. Things were looking good.
What does this mean for the rest of the season? Does Buell continue in FX? Is it worth the hassle with the potential protests and the poor showings? You guys have got to get it together!!!
So, if you get a slipper clutch on the bike does that mean you can go back to a single chain? And my God, with the torque numbers you guys are laying down, how in the world did you run without a slipper clutch? Besides embarrassing the fans are you guys out to kill the riders too???
Buell has once again LET ME DOWN! |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 08:49 pm: |
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Cecil, how can Buell have let you down when they've just fed your stupidity with more amo?
I've just read in other threads what the route cause of the problem was and I apologize for my harsh comments above. The porous casting issue is very bad luck.
Rocket |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 09:06 pm: |
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Read more on the DNF reasons on another post. The comments that the slipper clutch was the problem are not true. A slipper clutch would be nice and would have been easier on the components, but it wouldn't have made the bikes finish. It was a reaction to feedback initially received about the failures combined with the knowledge that slipper clutches are easier on drivetrain parts. We should have known better than to respond until we saw all the parts, but it's tough when everyone is in your face.
The facts came out when the bikes started actually being disassembled today. None of the triple row primary chains failed (as did the single rows, BrianH, time after time). Basically two of the bikes had clutch hubs that failed due to horrible porosity, and another bike had a part break that was laser cut at the last moment to get to the track when the production parts didn't arrive in time. It broke at a jagged notched area where the laser hadn't cut smoothly. Neither of these problems are going to happen again.
Oh, and Mr. Know it all Rocket, we tried to run multiple slipper clutch cofigurations, including Ducati ones, and the best were good for about 5 laps. The torque loads are wildly higher than those on a Ducati, and will require some type of radically advancecd design. So, you go ahead and build a slipper clutch for an XBRR since it's so easy, and we'll try it. But I'll bet we get it done before you, and I'll bet ours will work. And we won't need it to win.
And, over all, sorry to "let down" all of you critics. The class is open, build your own. |
Ortegakid
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 09:50 pm: |
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Well said anony, well said!, any flake can criticize your effort, a true Buellite would only be applauding the awesome effort ya'll put in, I know i am!! |
Charlieboy6649
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 10:14 pm: |
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Hey, I was seeing top ten happen when it all went wrong. That doesn't change the fact that I was happy as a pig in sheit to see them out there...This was not a let down on National TV. It was a valiant showing from a few very dedicated dealers.
BrianH, who the hell are you that Buell let you down??? Aweful full of yourself aren't you??? Buell (the factory) doesn't race, remember? These were a bunch of privateers with factory help that did a bang up job the first time out, NO? I look forward to the rest of the season! |
Charlieboy6649
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 10:16 pm: |
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Besides, what better test than Daytona to prep the bikes for the rest of the season! |
Stormtrooper
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 10:22 pm: |
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Hey Anon-
Not a bad run at it......
However, she does seem to require a bit more effort than "just completing drawings" (9/15/05) to get her up to speed, yes? And, like a venture to MN, it's always nice to have your facts in hand.......
My words, my story |
Brianh
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 10:30 pm: |
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Hey Anon,
With all due respect, we don't need to build an FX machine. We can BUY one, sink $10K into it, be FX legal, AND $10K under the sticker of an XBRR. Put McWilly on it and it's an easy top 10 finish.
Enough excuses. Produce already. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 10:50 pm: |
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Brianh, No one is fielding a top ten FX bike for less than $20k. Granted the right rider makes all the difference in the world.
Top ten will mean less with DuHamel, Zemke, and DiSalvo out of the mix.
I fully expect to see a top 5 finish at Barber. It is a technical track and should play into the Buell's strengths. |
Brucelee
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 10:52 pm: |
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"Buell has once again LET ME DOWN!"
Ah, grow the F... up! |
Jon
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 11:07 pm: |
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Taken from another thread, but I think it bears repeating here. Sorry if I sound like a self centered ass.
"Although I am not involved in racing, I am involved in building multimillion dollar building exteriors using custom designed systems and components. Your mind might be blown to find out what goes on during design, engineering and actual construction. But for all the experience my firm, me, the architect, and general contractor have, the only way to really get a handle on what we are going to do is to do a mock up. We do calculations, drawings, extrude, fabricate, build and then test for seismic, water and air infiltration, etc. THEN we build. NO ONE does it differently at that level.
Sure, this was a real race. But in my view it was also a mock-up with a view to the future. This whole shebang was put together pretty suddenly (please correct me if I have the facts wrong) and that means who was going to ride as well.
Perhaps an experienced racer can agree that preparing to race a new beast with new riders is not quite as simple as loading a gun. ANYTHING new has a start as only a start...it's a journey in the middle and the end. Buell will work out bugs, the pit crews will do scenarios, etc. This is true in any technical and dynamic enterprise. Whether it's racing a bike, or building a skyscraper high rise on schedule and under budget.
Right on Erik! You've got my attention. No apologies or explainations are required here. Looking forward to the next time."
Hey Buell MC,
The only people that are in your face are people who are trying to live vicariously through you, or people who are not reasonable to begin with. Buy a box of cigars and smoke 'em. Nothing better for a group re-group than a smoke-out. Don't bother with Cubans...Dominican will do. |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 11:14 pm: |
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There are few on this board (myself included) that could not do well with a bit of growing up. Let the critics speak. What good is a one-sided Buell lovefest?
That said, my only disappointment in this whole thing was the lack of decent press coverage! It seems the only time they talked about Buell was when they had problems. Besides, I am tired of explaining to strangers what kind of bike I ride.
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Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 11:24 pm: |
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Hey I'm sorry my apology wasn't good enough. I could have been a real prick and just deleted my post, but I didn't.
So tell me if I'm such a Mr Know it all, wtf where you doing trying out my ideas in the first place? Didn't you know that your XBRR had such higher torque than anything else that's ever run a slipper clutch before that it wouldn't work anyway on your XBRR? It's always the same old story at Buell. How you're supposed to be the best engineers on the planet. Dedicated to racing. Innovative designers yadayadayada. Fact is, your clutch issues should have been resolved well before race weekend, but it wasn't.
As for me designing you a slipper clutch that works, no problem. Don't presume for one minute that just because my name isn't heading up a motorcycle company that I'm not as capable as you are when it comes to engineering. I just don't brag about my talents around here. Let me have the spec's and you shall have - at a price of course. After all, it won't be the first, or last time, I improve upon your designs.
Rocket |
Oldog
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 11:44 pm: |
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Hey Annony,
thanks for the info.
you remember the parable of the actor and the critic??
GO BUELL! |
Sokota
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 12:05 am: |
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Mr. Anon , where did the clutch hubs come from, Are they manufactured in house or farmed out, Is the source of the metal/alloy the problem, Were they machined from billet or cast ? Does the XBRR clutch have any resemblence to the XB street bikes ? Close, but no cigar [yet] Fix em and Go Buell.
(Message edited by sokota on March 13, 2006) |
Cochise
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 12:06 am: |
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Ok Rocketman, I think we're good. I am not a Custodian here, but, let's try to calm it down a little. Sheesh. |
Lowflyer
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 12:12 am: |
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Will a slipper clutch work with boots, or do you have to wear slippers? |
Bomber
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 12:31 am: |
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thanks for the sata, Anny -- very cool to get the straight skinny from inside --
also, a great showing for a brand new bike -- tething problems are expectred, no doubt, and the entire effort was worth it if only to shake up the AMA
looking forward to more racing from you guys -- stand tall, well done, and thanks! |
Peter
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 12:55 am: |
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quote:As for me designing you a slipper clutch that works, no problem. Don't presume for one minute that just because my name isn't heading up a motorcycle company that I'm not as capable as you are when it comes to engineering.
Love to see that get backed up...  |
Eeeeek
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 02:25 am: |
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Any idea what mods Will Gruy (10th place) had done to his R6? |
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