| Author |
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Xb9
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 01:28 pm: | 
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This Daytona 200 will be very interesting. This just in from SOUPerbikeplanet.com:
http://superbikeplanet.com/2006/Feb/060229omo.htm
"The 150 horspower Buell XBRR, with a pair of four-inch cannon barrels for cylinders, is in a class above the Honda CBR600 and Yamaha R6 samurai 600cc sportbikes set to do battle in the 200 mile Formula Xtreme farce."
"...Buell bringing a gun to a knife fight."
"To match the Buells for horsepower will require Honda and Yamaha to tune their 600cc motors to specific output levels equal to that of a MotoGP bike. On top of that, the Daytona 200 is about three times longer than a MotoGP race. The Daytona 200 is Buell's race to lose."
"Because the Daytona 200 is the biggest paying road race in the AMA series, one should expect that any Buell XBRR that wins pole position or finishes in the points will get protested by non-Buell riders. In all likelihood the AMA will disallow the protest. It is just as likely that the protesting rider will appeal. Per the rulebook, the AMA would need to convene an appeals board comprising of three neutral and competent individuals. How will the appeals board decide if the XBRR engine is a modified street engine or a purpose built racing engine? The same way former Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart did in 1964 deciding if something was pornographic or not with his immortal statement: "I know it when I see it."
Now they are trying to attack it by the cooling system:
"But I think there is another argument against the Buell XBRR, and this one is black and white.
Per the AMA rulebook, four-stroke twin cylinder motorcycles between 850cc and 1350cc must be air-cooled. Buell's own press release openly admits that the XBRR engine is not purely air-cooled: "The Buell XBRR features a modified XB Thunderstorm 1339cc (103.6mm bore x 79.4mm stroke) air/oil-cooled V-Twin motor rated at 150-hp (measured at the crankshaft)."
YadaYadaYada
GO BUELL!!!!
(Message edited by xb9 on March 01, 2006)
(Message edited by xb9 on March 01, 2006) |
Firebolt428
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 02:08 pm: |
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I love superbikeplanet.com but since Buell has come out with the new bike I have really begun not to like them. Its been allowed to race FX since the switch to 600 based machines.. The Buell's were running in it 2 years ago and most of them had similar mods. Kosco and HALS.. Why is everyone (especially superbikeplanet.com) throwing such a fit.. this is a AMERICAN machine... DUH..
venting done.. thanks |
Midknyte
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 02:32 pm: |
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That article spends nearly as much time saying that Buell can't win anyway
as it does crying that Buell has been granted an unfair advantage...
schyziod (SP?) pap |
Benm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 03:09 pm: |
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If someone wrote an eloquent article about why the Buell IS legal, how it should be allowed to compete, and how it could revitalize interest in the actual RACING that takes place at Daytona, would they give it similar air time?
Anyone eloquent want to give it a shot? |
Charlieboy6649
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 03:34 pm: |
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Crybaby...
If it's such a problem, why doesn't yamakawahondazuki produce a 1350cc aircooled pushrod and call it even. Screw em. I can't criticize someone for playing optiamally by the rules. Buell fan or not... |
Jscott
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 04:38 pm: |
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It's a shame - I used to really love SuperbikePlanet.com for its news, but they are really showing their anti-Buell bias. Here's an email I got back from Dean after I emailed him to see what gives.
Scott,
You’re almost reaching the limit of allowed BS in one e-mail, I think. There’s so many untruths in there I’m not sure where to start, frankly. You’re very impassioned and I respect that.
I hope things turn out the way you wan them to in this Buell fiasco. It’s a sad fact that the bike is clearly illegal and the AMA has really stepped in it this time by allowing it in the FX class.
Thanks
Dean
On 3/1/06 1:53 PM, "Scott Rains" wrote:
I guess when you can't see passed displacement things are hard to figure out. You don't hear anyone complaining that Honda and Yamaha have an unfair advantage because they are permitted to have twice the number of cylinders and valves. Not to mention twice the front brake rotors and the efficiency of water cooling. Then you have Honda's blatant cherry picking of the FX class last year, now it's Yamaha's turn. Factory teams with unobtanum parts versus Buell's dealer supported teams with parts you can actually purchase. You think that Yamaha could sell their FX bike in the $30,000 dollar range? What's with the hard-on against Buell? I love your site for its news, but your bias against Buell are getting ridiculous. Give Erik a break, the AMA bankrupted him when they killed the Formula class and now that he's got a chance to be competitive with a LEGAL bike everyone wants to bust his balls.
Scott Rains
(Message edited by JScott on March 01, 2006) |
Hattori_hanzo
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 04:54 pm: |
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Wow....wonder if ole Tracy has even ridden a motorcycle...what an asshat! |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 05:29 pm: |
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Quite obviously, as a Buell fan, I'm not real fond of the content.
As a writer, I'm amazed they pay the guy. I thought it was just poorly written, a bit argumentative and kept citing fairly inconclusive "references".
It is, as in all things, at the point where tis a matter pretty much of opinion, me thinks. |
Firebolt428
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 05:37 pm: |
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I would like to email Dean and ask him where he was 2 years ago when KOSCO and HAl's were running there Buell's in FX. I don't recall him bitching and throwing fits then or everyone else for that matter. 8 caliper piston was being used then. Hal's was running a 13 to 1400cc engine. |
Jscott
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 05:44 pm: |
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Email away - sometimes he returns mine.
hardscrabblemedia@earthlink.net |
Firebolt428
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 06:00 pm: |
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ya I emailed him. I will post his reply if he replies.. |
Jscott
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 06:04 pm: |
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I also emailed him a link to another website where a pretty well written guy was debunking their opinion.
"Everyone's on to you Dean - disappointing turn for usually a great site - hope you guys can turn it around.
http://insider.speedtv.com/viewtopic.php?t=113884
Scott Rains"
They also have a poll on their site concerning the Buell - everyone needs to help quell this pot stirring of theirs.
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/getVote.jsp?pn=buell0301 |
Mikeyp
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 07:08 pm: |
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Well, make your opinion heard.
Superbikeplanet has a poll up regarding the XBRR.
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/getVote.jsp?pn=buell0301 |
Cataract2
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 08:39 pm: |
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Sounds to me with his rant about it using an oil cooler (WHICH COMES F***ING STOCK ON THE STREET BIKES!!! HEY, DO YOU NEED ME TO TAKE A PICTURE OF IT TO PROVE IT?!!?) is really funny. He really is reaching in this. |
Pupu
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 09:18 pm: |
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he said "Per the AMA rulebook, four-stroke twin cylinder motorcycles between 850cc and 1350cc must be air-cooled. Buell's own press release openly admits that the XBRR engine is not purely air-cooled"
he said it sais that it must be air cooled! it is air cooled( and also oil cooled ) but from what he said, it didnt say it has to be only air cooled. |
Bluzm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 09:45 pm: |
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I must be missing something here, if memory serves, the oil is air cooled right?
Yup, he's an asshat. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 10:04 pm: |
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The cylinders and heads don't have massive oil jackets enveloping them like a water cooled engine. The oil cooler is to cool the oil, same as for any engine that uses one. That is really reaching and indicates an almost frenetic effort to try to show the Buell XBRR in a bad light. Very unfortunate.
No one noticed the gross error in his description of the IL4 cc limit being 300cc below that of superbikes? It is 400cc. So much for remedial math. |
Sandblast
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 10:26 pm: |
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That article made me really upset, I hate that everyone is trying to ruin this for us with their fear and jealousy.
The bike is based on a streetbike, a little press from Buell isn't going to change that. Just because Buell modifies it THEN sells it does not make it different from Honda Modifying a CBR and racing it with unlimited $$suport$$, but not selling it that way.
The "air/oil cooled" argument is so stupid I cant even think about it without my head hurting. All air cooled engines from the dawn of time have used air to cool the oil. That argument makes me insane.
I feel like going into the garage and kicking over my wifes Honda Superhawk. |
Davegess
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 01, 2006 - 11:04 pm: |
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If anyone here has any information or contacts in the AMA please contact me using the message function in my profile. I am trying to get some information. This is purely "off the record" |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 02:38 am: |
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Dave,
You have email.  |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 05:59 am: |
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I feel like going into the garage and kicking over my wifes Honda Superhawk.
Awe, that's nice. Maybe I'll just go kick any Honda I see parked 
Rocket |
Xb9
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 09:21 am: |
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Dave, you have more mail |
Cataract2
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 09:40 am: |
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Rocket, it's his wife's. One way or the other he'd have to deal with her in the end. |
Spike
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 10:02 am: |
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Buell should bring along a truckload of Kleenex with them to Daytona and hand a box to each of the sniveling crybabies.
Maybe Honda and Yamaha should form their own race league and leave the AMA completely. They can have one class for red 600cc I4s, and one class for blue 600cc I4s. That way they can each have a championship winning bike without having to deal with this whole "competition" thing. |
Sandblast
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 10:04 am: |
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Yeah, I even hoped she would'nt see the post.  I'm all talk anyway.
Rocket, dont do it, somehow karma would get you and I'd have to wait even LONGER to see the pics of your bike... I'm growing a beard over here.
Is it time for Daytona yet? |
Soloyosh
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 11:24 am: |
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Sent this to Dean today:
Hi there,
I’ve been reading your site daily since I first started working for Yoshimura in Feb. of 2000 doing fuel injection work.
I have a few comments regarding Mr. Hagen’s article on the Buell XBRR legality.
On the subject of the rules hierarchy, he may have a point there. However, as stated by Mr. Vanderslice in AMA’s press release on February 10th, “We were aware of Buell plans and inspected the motorcycle on Friday, February 3rd as part of the approval process.” Judging by that statement, Buell had kept the AMA aware of what they intended to do and did what they needed to do to get the bike approved and the AMA had ample opportunity to ask them to make changes. Also the XBRR is essentially identical to the bikes raced by dealer teams like Hal’s last year. True the XBRR does not have a VIN per se, and is not legal for use on public highways. It is however based on a motorcycle that is legal. The addition of race parts, fuel injection re-mapping, removal of lighting, etc. makes any bike on the FX grid illegal to ride on a public road, including the Honda and Yamaha factory bikes. Just because the modifications were carried out by the factory in this case and not the teams seems to be the rub.
As to the oil-cooled or air-cooled question, Mr. Hagen's argument falls flat. It seems to be a question of semantics. Mr. Hagen’s claim is that, since the bike has an oil-cooler, it’s not air cooled. A quick perusal of other manufacturer’s websites shows that some consider bikes “air-cooled” even if equipped with an oil cooler. These manufacturers include Ducati and most notably Honda. Others, like Suzuki and Buell use the “air/oil-cooled” terminology. So which is it? In the end you have to look at what the oil’s role in the engine is. Its primary role is to lubricate. Water is poor lubricant. It does have very good heat transfer properties and it is essentially the only other liquid allowed to be carried on the vehicle besides gas and chain-lube. Because of this it makes sense to use it as a coolant, which is its primary role on the vehicle. Simply put oil’s job is lubrication, water’s job is cooling. Finally, the fact that the cooling fan on Buell’s street bikes draws air across the heads and not through the cooler leads me to believe that oil-cooler is just that, something designed to cool the oil and not regulate engine temperature.
I do own a Buell, and will be rooting for them in the 200. If the bike’s not legal then the AMA needs to say so and why. Mr. Hagen’s points on the matter do not seem valid when you remove your blinders, and look at it from a technical standpoint. I encourage Honda and Yamaha to sell race versions of their Factory FX bikes so the shrewd privateer has some choice in the matter. Knowing what a set of Supersport forks cost Yoshimura back when I was there, I doubt Honda or Yamaha could sell a copy of their FX team bikes at Buell’s price point without selling at a huge loss.
In any case keep up the good work and keep the discussion going. While there seems to have been an anti-Buell slant of late, it appears that most of your readers (as evidenced by your recent Souperpoll) either don’t care to read anything else on the subject or agree that the Buell is legal. One bonus to the controversy is that many that wouldn’t have known or cared about the 200, now plan to watch to see if Buell can fill the role of giant-killer. That’s good for the AMA and all the manufacturers.
Here’s to a safe and exciting season.
Cheers
Brett |
Jscott
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 11:39 am: |
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Brett, excellent letter to Dean. |
Brotherbuell
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 11:41 am: |
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Brett,
Excellent! You presented the data, analyzed it, drew a conclusion and took a position. A classic analytical approach which will be hard to brush off with another BS charge. Please share the response ... if you get one. Thanks |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 11:45 am: |
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Very nice. Thanks for taking the time . |
Cataract2
| | Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 - 01:09 pm: |
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If, and I mean a big IF, he responds, please post it up. |
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