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Trojan
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 12:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Anyone know where to find the full rulebook for Formula Extreme online? I've looked on the AMA site but the rules ain't there.

Just curious to see what the fuss is about.
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Mikej
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 12:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Is this it?
http://www.amaproracing.com/prorace/pdf/RR%2006%20Rulebook.pdf

Starting on page 21.
pages 27-28 are interesting:

quote:

h. Approval of Formula Xtreme® Motorcycles
1. Only approved motorcycles may be used in Formula Xtreme competition.
2. Formula Xtreme competition is restricted to motorcycles (engines and frames) produced for US street use and available in the US through retail dealers.


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Glitch
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 01:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Starting on page 21.
pages 27-28 are interesting:

Deja vu all over again!
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Mikej
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 02:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey, we're only 8 years old later this week.
Just wait until our teens and we'll start having premonitions.
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Whodom
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 06:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Just in case some of you had lingering doubts about the legality of the XBRR in Formula Xtreme, check out this quote from an interview with Erik just posted to roadracerx.com today:

You’ve mentioned a couple of times that the XBRR is based on the XB. Some have questioned the bike’s eligibility for FX, since the press release said it was designed “exclusively for closed course competition,” and the rules say the class is supposed to be based on street-legal machinery.

We just called it a name because we did, but it is a modified bike, and it meets the rules. It seems silly to call it the bike that it’s based off when it’s changed.

Does the AMA still have to make a ruling on that?

No, that was done a long time ago, so it’s definitely approved. We have a letter from them saying it’s approved.


HA! I'd say that's a "done deal"! Woo Hoo!

Complete interview here:

http://www.roadracerx.com/BetweenRaces_020106_ErikBuell_Part1.html
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Blake
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 09:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

JQ,

So he had to talk to the AMA and even then he never mentions that engine modifications are "unlimited" only that the rules are "wide" and allow for "so many modifications." Uh no, the rules allow for "unlimited" engine modifications.

And that was buried at the very tail end of the article.

Not a straight shooter, not in my book.
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Davegess
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 10:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Not a straight shooter, not in my book.

Lighten up Blake, Adam's is very much a straight guy but he does love to tweak the factories, very irreverant and certinly not a Harley Guy. But he does poke fun at everyone, sort of an equal oppurtunity guy. Also he is very much in the know so the whole surprise thing did not make him happy, The RR got the very rare BOMBSHELL heading, usually he has story before anyone else.

I watch that site closly
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 03:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I'm just not a big fan of that kind of irreverence. Never have been. Humor at the expense of others, lest they be good friends, is not good humor in my book. I rate it right up there with internet trolls and their pot-stirring, baiting for their own amusement but at the expense of the consternation of others.

I'll try to lighten up though. : )
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Trojan
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 05:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The rules don't seem to be written very well, and leave an awful lot open to argument and conjecture. This is a whole big grey area that will almost inevitably run and run. Erik and his team have obviously read the rules and interpreted them to Buells best advantage. I guess that Honda et all would use the argument that by using completely new engine casings Buell have not modified the existing engine at all, but built a new one.

Where does modification end and manufacture begin?

It would be terrible for Buell if they were to win Daytona, then have the result appealed by
A N Other manufacturer, and for the process to drag on for months before a final decision was made. Something that I am sure none of us want to see happen.
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Court
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 05:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Bikes legal. Old news. Done.
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Diablobrian
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 12:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Honestly Trojan the scenario you suggested would be great for Buell. Continued discussion and
headlines for the duration of the "appeal" would be great advertising. Of course since the AMA
has already declared it legal it would be "much ado about nothing at all" Honda should know better.
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Davegess
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 01:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The longer Honda, Yamaha, etc want talk about Buell with the press and the bigger stink they want to make a Buell the more people will hear about Buell. Win or lose it's good for Buell.

I suspect somewhere in Japan a PR guy is frantically writing memos to tell these guys to shut up and ignore the RR.
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Bigblock
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 07:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

First across the finish line= winner!
That's what everyone remembers, first across the line (unless you're the first woman to place 4th in the indy 500!). If a Buell wins, and others protest, this is just free publicity, and a good thing! Bring 'em on!
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Nedwreck
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 10:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Haters, the lot of 'em.

Bob
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Buellerx
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 12:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I wonder which teams managers were talking to the AMA guys? They must be really worried.

http://www.roadracerx.com/roadracerhead_2-06_021006.html

Also on hand were representatives from AMA Pro Racing, including Road Racing Manager Ron Barrick, Motocross Manager Steve Whitelock, and Vice President, Director of Communications Kerry Graeber. A couple of managers of the Japanese teams were seen jawboning Barrick, as some have concerns with the ruling on Buell’s new XBRR, a racing-only model that’s aimed specifically at Formula Xtreme racing, including the Daytona 200 season opener. I talked to a couple of these people, and their main concern is over whether or not the XBRR, which is specifically aimed at racing, is a really a separate model from the street-going XB12R.

Doubts were initially raised on January 23 when Buell first announced the existence of the XBRR, which they called “ a limited-edition production racing motorcycle designed exclusively for closed course competition” in their press release. AMA rules state that “Formula Xtreme competition is restricted to motorcycles (engines and frames) produced for U.S. street use and available in the U.S. through retail dealers.” Today, AMA Pro confirmed that they consider the XBRR a “race-kitted variant of the road-going XB12R” and thus see it as eligible for competition in FX. We can therefore expect to see the bike in action at Daytona, but it’s doubtful that that will be the last we hear on the subject.
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Benm2
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 08:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Oh for pete's sake. What a bunch of whiners! Most of the manufacturers at one point or another have made bikes that aren't too far away from the XBRR in theory & principle: Dedicated short-run racebikes.

Honda RC30, RC45
Yamaha R7, R1LE (the last MADE for AMA superstock)
Ducati 999R, 998R, 749R, etc.

Plus, there were times when even the "regular" models were such a leap forward at the time that other bikes were practically made obselete:

Suzuki GSXR750 (the original overdog)
Honda CBR600 (the first one)
Yamaha RZ350
Honda VF750

It seems like VERY sour grapes to complain about the XBRR.

Of course, the easiest way to silence the critics is to IMMEDIATELY introduce a production run of 250 road-legal editions!
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Whodom
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 10:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Of course, the easiest way to silence the critics is to IMMEDIATELY introduce a production run of 250 road-legal editions!

You know, considering the way Buell has PROVEN they've done their homework so far, it wouldn't surprise me at all if a road-legal version is in the wings and ready to go. Maybe they're holding it back from production "just in case" at this point, but I'll bet it's ready.
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Trojan
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 11:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The only problem with your argument Ben is that all the bikes you mention were made as ROAD bikes in sufficient quantities so that they qualified for Superbikes. Even the VR1000 had a road version made in order to qualify.

I agree whole heartedly with your last point though : )
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Court
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 01:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

>>>Even the VR1000 had a road version made in order to qualify.


My sense is that you may have never ridden a VR1000 on the street.

It, even with the pro forma turn signals, was no street bike.
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Benm2
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 01:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Petronas...
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Imonabuss
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 02:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It meets the rules, for God's sake! The race organization says so. A little company makes a production batch of bikes modifed to meet the racing rules, and the big factories are screaming? I'll bet Mat Mladin's salary is more money than the Buell guys had to do the whole project! What's most pathetic are the everyday people who buy into the "poor Suzuki, poor Honda, how unfair" deal!!!
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186bigtwin
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 02:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Just like in NHRA PSM , The Harleys start winning and the Japs start crying! It's strange no one cared HOW big the Harleys were (200 cu in 45 degree motors), until these "little" 160 inch 60 degree engines started winning.
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Court
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 03:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This is a bit reminiscent of when the Japanese firms were found to be "dumping" and the trade tarrifs were implemented.

Folks screamed like crying babies. . .



quote:

Remarks at the Harley-Davidson Company Employee-Management Forum in York, Pennsylvania
May 6, 1987

The President. I have to tell you, this has been very exciting to see all of this. And at the same time, I had a great feeling of familiarity, because as I was telling you earlier, during my 8 years on a television program called ``The GE Theater,'' I would spend about 10 or 12 weeks every year visiting GE plants. And I met 250,000 employees in those years, and I think it was 139 plants in 39 States. And I came to the conclusion then if the people who are the customers out there could see what goes into the products they take for granted, they'd be deeply moved and very excited.

I want to thank you for this excellent presentation. And when I hear all this talk about how unbeatable some foreign competitors are, I am reminded of a little incident in World War II. At my age, I'm always being reminded of things like this. [Laughter] It was General Douglas MacArthur and Admiral Chester Nimitz, and during one of the campaigns in the South Pacific, they were changing ships and the waves overturned the small boat they were in. And Admiral Nimitz called out to General MacArthur for help, and the General finally got to him and held him above water, so he could breathe, until they were finally rescued. And when it was all over, the Admiral said, ``Doug,'' he said, ``Please, don't ever tell my men I can't swim.'' And Doug said, ``I won't tell them that you can't swim if you won't tell them I can't walk on water.'' [Laughter]

But I've heard a lot about this comeback before coming here today. But what's impressed me most was not any one thing -- not changes in financing or marketing or in the product or the way it's made, but something much bigger. And it's been very evident here in what I've been hearing right now: that Harley-Davidson is moving forward because Harley-Davidson has become a team. You're working together; there's literally a hotline between the factory floor and the top office; and ideas are coming from every part of the company. You work in small teams to figure out how to do things better. And this isn't a top-down company; this is a company in which everyone is standing shoulder to shoulder on the front line -- everyone. It didn't take huge, new investments, as you've pointed out here today, in exotic technologies to put Harley-Davidson back on top; it just took a huge, new investment of faith in each other.

You know, listening here, I can't help but think that there's something familiar about the source of your success. It sounds a lot like what was at the bottom of another success story. Now, we all know that story, but maybe sometimes we get a little indifferent and let it slip from our minds. It concerns people from every corner of the Earth. They had a little more drive, and they dreamed a little more than others around them, and they had that little extra ounce of courage to leave everything behind and make a long, difficult journey across the ocean to a new continent, a new world, and where they built a new nation called America. And the strength that comes when free men and women join together and work for a common purpose -- it's a story as old as our great nation and as young as the reborn Harley-Davidson.

And, yes, it's the key to America's success in the competitive world of the 21st century. For the last few months, I've been talking about how we've got to begin preparing for the 21st century. I've talked about quality in education, about training for the jobs of the future, and about how America will continue to grow. The economy of the 21st century will be an international economy where American companies like Harley will compete on every continent and in every country.

Now, some want to hide from that world, not to compete, just to throw up walls and protection and hide. But if we really look back, America has never been afraid of a challenge. We've always been ready to compete and always been ready to win. And I think you have proven, and it's confirmed, all that I had heard before I got here, and that is that you are ready still to compete, to not ask for quarter, and to go forward.

And I just thank you for all you've done. I was president of my own union one time. [Laughter] God bless you. This is what it's all about, and you've shown it. And I hope that this is a seed that spreads throughout American industry.

Moderator. We're pleased to have you.

The President. Well, pleased to be here.




And for the benefit of those who forgot what this was about. . .

quote:

April 1, 1983
Memorandum for the United States Trade Representative

Subject: Motorcycle Import Relief Determination


Pursuant to Section 202(b)(1) of the Trade Act of 1974 (P.L. 93 - 618, 88 Stat. 1978), I have determined the action I will take with respect to the report of the United States International Trade Commission (USITC), transmitted to me on February 1, 1983, concerning the results of its investigation of a petition for import relief filed by the Harley-Davidson Motor Co., Inc., and Harley-Davidson York, Inc., producers of heavyweight motorcycles, provided for in item 692.50 of the Tariff Schedules of the United States (TSUS).

After considering all relevant aspects of the case, including those set forth in Section 202(c) of the Trade Act of 1974, I have determined that granting import relief is consistent with our national economic interest. Therefore, I will proclaim the USITC five-year import relief remedy with one modification. I will impose tariff increases of 45 percent ad valorem in the first year, declining to 35, 20, 15 and 10 percent above scheduled rates in subsequent years. Imposition of these tariff increases should allow the heavyweight motorcycle industry to adjust to the threat of injury caused by increased imports, which have raised inventories to twice their normal level.

To assure small volume producers who have not contributed to that threat of injury continued access to U.S. markets for heavyweight motorcycles, I will modify the USITC remedy by proclaiming tariff-rate quotas of 5,000 units (increasing yearly to 6,000, 7,000, 8,500 and 10,000) for imports of motorcycles manufactured in the Federal Republic of Germany, and 4,000 units (increasing yearly by 1,000) for imports from all other countries except Japan. The additional duties will apply to all imports above the tariff-rate quotas. In order to treat Japan fairly I will also proclaim a tariff-rate quota of 6,000 units (increasing 1,000 yearly) for motorcycles imported from Japan.

I also direct you to keep the issue under close review so that, should the U.S. motorcycle industry no longer need this level of relief, you may, in consultation with the Trade Policy Committee, obtain other necessary advice and propose changes in the terms of relief. If no earlier review is initiated by such conditions, you are to undertake such a review in two years. The objectives of this review would be to assess the effectiveness of import relief and Harley-Davidson's trade adjustment efforts.

Ronald Reagan




But. . . how many of you recall it was Harley-Davidson, charged with energy from a group of dedicated folks, whop went to the feds, declared themselves fit to fend for themselves and requested the tariffs be dropped early?
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Bigdaddy
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 05:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

VR

I'd ride it!

G2
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Sarodude
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 04:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

For the 1994 Indy 500 Roger Penske approached Mercedes and explained to them why they needed to build a pushrod motor. He also explained that after they won, the rule that allowed such motors would be thrown out and the motor would no longer be elligible for competition. They were building a one race engine design - but it was worth it 'cause they KNEW they'd win the 500.

Well, it turns out that they won - and boy, how did they. It also turns out that the indy folks banned such motors.

What's the point? Well, there are a couple of ways to beat Buell at this game. One is to do something like create an air-cooled version of an RC51 or go with an air-cooled Duc - and I think they wouldn't even need pushrods to meet the rules as I scanned for pushrod and push-rod in the AMA rules and found no reference. Now, I know this is simplified and the RC51 has it's problems and the SS Ducs aren't the newest designs - but you get the drift...

Stop & think for a minute if that there Buell motor could hit 10 or 11 thousand revs - and what kinda power it would put out. Now, what if Honda or Ducati had a bike / motor like that?

Sure - the AMA could reduce the displacement afforded air cooled twins. I just wanted to point out an alternate scenario.

-Saro
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Whodom
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 04:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

For the 1994 Indy 500 Roger Penske approached Mercedes and explained to them why they needed to build a pushrod motor.

I remember reading that Penske had to explain to the German engineers what a "pushrod" engine was. None of the then-current Mercedes engineers had any experience with them, they had gone to OHC so many years previously.
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 05:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Saro,
The RC51 scenario is not likely. Honda would first need to manufacture a street bike with the RC51 frame and an air-cooled engine.

Ducati could and in my opinion should try to come up with a beefed up version of their 1000cc Supersport air-cooled machine.

That would be too cool!

If they did, and if it became an overdog, then I expect the rules would be refined accordingly. The CCS/FUSA rules distinguish between all kinds of engine configurations based upon number of valves per cylinder, number of cylinders, type of cooling system, and type of valvetrain. They have the best, most inclusive, most equitable and most comprehensive tech rules governing class definitions for engines that I've ever seen.

It is really too bad that the AMA cannot see their way to adopting a similar philosophy outside of Formula Xtreme. It would only be a good thing for the series. Why for instance is the Ducati 749 not allowed to compete in AMA Supersport? I don't get it.

But kudos to the AMA for letting various engine configs compete with parity in FX.
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Davegess
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 05:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Saro, don't doubt that it could happen. BUT they have to make a production engine to base it on. Ducati has an aircooled Twin as does BMW and MotoGuzzi but I don't hink the Japanese do.
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 05:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Is it an omen that we are already talking about how to beat Buell? LOL. How cool is THAT? : D
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Blake
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 05:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Honda did it to Ducati with the RC51. I wouldn't put it past them to try the same if Buell comes to dominate FX.

But, ZTL will still rule the day! : D LOL!
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