| Author |
Message |
    
Josh_
| | Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 02:40 pm: | 
|
Well I'm looking into that track-only Ducati, wish Buell could release some info if they'll have something like it. |
Mikeyp
| | Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 03:15 pm: |
|
Jim, dude, i'm totally in love with the Tuono!
I'm thinking that it would be like my old RC51, just with higher bars, and a more comfortable seat.
I've yet to see one in the flesh...Jim, how tall are you? I was wondering if she sat high?
I'm 5'10" with a 30". I just want a guesstimte on the ergo's.
The Touno is probably the perfect streetbike for how i ride. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 06:41 pm: |
|
I saw the new Tuono last Friday. I think it's a big improvement over the old one - but it still looks like most of the body parts were thrown at it as an after thought!
A friend had one a couple of years ago, and he loved the way it rode and powered up.
That said, and I know it's a 'four', the Brutale is drop dead gorgeous and I know where there's a reasonably priced 750S model in Florida.
Rocket |
Stormtrooper
| | Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 06:56 pm: |
|
Gents
Thank you for your consideration of what is, most assuredly, a dissenting opinion regarding the XBRR.
I think, however, I failed to convey with clarity, the reason for my original post, and for it’s heading that some may feel to have been of a somewhat “trolling” nature.
While my venue has changed to a more public arena, and the role I play has been changed to that of strictly a customer, my message, intent, and desire all remain intact and the same. Quite simply, I want an American motorcycle manufacturer to step up to the plate as a serious contender in, at a minimum, American road racing challenges. Make the commitment. Find a way. A no excuses, no holds barred, best effort for all titles on the road in the AMA – per the rules of such classes. Far from negative, I am quite the fan and supporter of the marque. I would very much like to see a HD/Buell be fantastically successful on the track – and, I believe, a vehicle capturing such success on the race course would deliver a like similar success in the showrooms as well. Wake the sleeping dragon.
Unfortunately, with Buell, we have seen limited to fair success – on the racetrack or in the showroom - and we have not seen the return of an American marque to the Superbike event. For those of you who do not yet feel screwed, when will you? Will it be when a road going RR variant fails to materialize? As I said before, if such a beastie existed, I believe you would see, explicitly – no rumor or whispers – detail regarding such a vehicle at this time while the hype is at its heights. Especially, considering, the apparent given ease of a “drop in” to existing chassis works. Or, will it be when you visit your local HD dealer to get some new performance additions for your current XB ride – trickle down from the RR - and you find they don’t exist? Keep in mind, the factory has departed in significant ways from our current XB motor – there must be a reason. From what I can gather on this board, the consensus seems to be that the cases are different, the cylinders, the heads, the exhaust, and, I think, various covers – to the point were interchangeability with current XB product seems quite out of reach. While arguing that the XBRR powerplant is a derivative of the XB (45deg, pushrod, remaining), and that it is within the scope of “Engine modifications are unlimited”, might work to appease a sanctioning body, such arguments do little to improve the performance of the bikes in ones’ garage.
I believe Blake to be correct when he comments to the rules of the series being established to create parity between different vehicle configurations. And while, for the AMA, that is indeed the be-all-end-all, as far as their product is concerned, the important ramification for us in the application of such rules is that as consumers we are allowed to benefit from the development focused and occurring for racing around “motorcycles (engines and frames) produced for US street use”. I believe racing involvement can and does sell motorcycles. I believe it would be difficult to argue otherwise when examining the evolution of the Japanese street bikes and their race version counterparts. I believe such evolution in product is possible, both on the track and on the street, only when strict conformance to the above rule is paid. I believe the XBRR motor is just such an evolution in 45deg, air cooled, twin cylinder, pushrod technology, made new. Unfortunately, for us, we have apparently lost the benefit of receiving a street model, hence the “we got screwed”, and without the street model carrying a slightly detuned version of the new motor, sorry, I would be inclined to DQ the entry. I never do get to make the rules, interpret the rules, or apply the rules – just live by them – guess that’s a good thing for Buell, eh?
I do find it disappointing that the hard work, determination, and talent of the project development team is seemingly going to waste in only 50 bikes. Seems to me, the reward for such an effort capable of wringing out an air cooled motor to the Nth level should be, at minimum, a low volume, streetable bike – with the pretty bodywork even. As far as the “fictional” comment from Anon regarding the original post, I find very little fiction in my re-read. Some thoughtful paths of logic, some possibilities, or some conjecture – maybe - but certainly not fiction. No, fiction would be claiming that “50 people will own one” – which will, most certainly, not be the case, I’m guessing. Probably, more like a handful of dealers, a VP or two, a CTO, and Jay Leno.
So, I say, again, wake the sleeping dragon. How many years of record quarter earnings? How many years of color changes and new tailsections? How many seasons of Japanese domination of the AMA, before HD/Buell decides to pull the trigger and really get in the game? The development team at BMC has certainly proven up to the task – fuel in frame? Sure. Quality improvements? Sure. Financials moving in the right direction? Check. Smokin’ hot air-cooled motor? Got that, too. I’d say the development team has their collective crapola in the bag – it’d be nice to see the stock traders at the top of the heap make a matching level of commitment to such beneficial pursuits for the product as AMA racing. Once the euphoria of having a new bike grows old, I believe we shall all see that the XBRR is, indeed, a collectable racing curiosity just as the VR became. Opportunity costs, fellas. What do we give up, by accepting this one-off racebike? Are we willing to sacrifice, possibly, a vehicle with the potential to challenge the best Japan has to offer, across all AMA classes (no quibbling required), that has a direct descendent available for purchase on the showroom floor?? If so, then be happy watching – not owning – an XBRR. I’d prefer the real deal, thank you very much. Demand the whole cake with some ice cream – it’s time for HD/Buell to blow the candles out at the Japanese AMA Party. The XBRR is NOT the level of commitment required from the Company to be successful at a professional level against, as my friend likes to say, “H – R – mother f*ing – C”.
Remember, all, we are customers. And, I, for one, am not “delighted”. When you guys are ready to write the letter to HD/Buell asking them to please stop blowing smoke and make the right bike, let me know. I’ll be the first to sign, my real name, in great big freaking letters.
As always, my words, my story
Thanks for listening |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 07:07 pm: |
|
ST, What was your real name?
I still think you're a troll.
G2 |
Crusty
| | Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 07:40 pm: |
|
Let me see if I have a handle on this. Buell has come out with a bona fide FX race bike that any legitimate race team can buy at a very reasonable price. Buell claims that the XBRR will make 150 reliable horsepower and that the engine should require only minimal maintenance (i.e. valve lapping) for an entire season. The bike is new and has never been proven in combat; but all the faithful have high hopes.
Now, Stormtrooper thinks we're being ripped off because Buell isn't falling all over themselves to release this bike as a street bike, and that all the redesigned and improved parts aren't interchangeable with current street models.
How long does adequate reliability testing take for a street bike? How long does it take to get a new engine approved, certified, etc. by the EPA, DOT, CARB, ad nauseum? After all the teething problems with the Tubers, and the bad reputation that came with them, do you really believe that Erik would let ANY street bike go into production that wasn't extremely reliable?
You seem to be angry that Buell (or H-D) hasn't built a Superbike. I remember back in the '60s, Honda didn't start with a 500cc GP bike either. they built small bikes, 50s,125s and 250s, and gained experience and knowledge before taking on the Big Guns.
How about a little credit where credit is due? Buell has built what looks like a competitive FX bike that is affordable for a Privateer. That's something that NOBODY else is doing. Not Honda or Yamaha or anyone else.
I don't think we're getting screwed at all. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 07:59 pm: |
|
Thanks, Crusty. Glad you and others appreciate what we are doing. It will work; we aren't screwing anyone, and we aren't rocketing out of the gate with some over-hyped "world-beater" that fizzles after selling a bunch of magazines some T-shirts, and fleecing a bunch of investors out of their savings. Oh yeah, and then you can write a book about how the moon and stars were against you.
Instead, we just keep putting our shoulders into the harnesses and pulling like crazy. Buell 10 years from now is going to be a force to be reckoned with, and that is why the major manufacturers and their cronies are trying like crazy to knock us down. |
186bigtwin
| | Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 07:59 pm: |
|
One good thing could come out of this even if we won't be able to buy an RR for a few years, maybe somebody out there (STD?) will cast some dual downdraft injection heads that can be run on really big bore street engines. 100 to 131 cu inchers, Now that would be BADDDD ! ! ! 200 rwhp on the street, YEHAWWWW ! ! ! |
Doughnut
| | Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 08:20 pm: |
|
Just wondering. . . there were only 50 of these things made, how many of these with see the track vs. how many will simply be displayed or other wise not raced? |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 08:27 pm: |
|
Storm Trooper, I also don't see the problem with the lack of immediate release of unrefined racing technology.
As a rule race bikes make lousy street bikes. I know I'm a little hypocritical on that end. Every bike I own ends
up edging toward race readiness. As the others have mentioned, we have faith that Erik will release the tech when
it is ready, not before then.
Faith as I'm sure you know is belief in something you cannot prove.
We do not need assurances from BMC that the RR will be here as an 07. The fact the tech is here at all is reason to
rejoice. The bottom line is that racing does improve street bikes. The RR tech will trickle down. It has to for the
racing effort to benefit the company beyond mere advertising. |
Whodom
| | Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 08:38 pm: |
|
The bottom line is that racing does improve street bikes. The RR tech will trickle down.
This has already been happening. I believe the improved oil pump drive gear (standard on the 06 bikes and available as a new part for earlier bikes) was one item that was supposedly developed as an offshoot of Buell's support for racers. Seems like the 06's also have a silver plated cage for the rod big end roller bearings that also came from the racers.
Bet you we see several things directly taken from the XBRR in 07, if not an entire street version of the bike. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 08:56 pm: |
|
Anonymous, Buell might well be a force to be reckoned with ten years from now, but I'm not 35 anymore and haven't been for a long time!!!!!!
Rocket |
Henrik
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 12:00 am: |
|
Stormtrooper; while very eloquently written - if a bit long  all I'm reading is 1) that you are unhappy with the AMA for letting the RR race in FX, and 2) that you're disappointed that you can't buy a street going RR now.
We've had quite similar discussions for years: "why don't Buell build the bike I want ..." - and bottom line seem for me to be that if you don't like the Buell offerings, then buy a different brand. As has been said before, there are very few bad bikes on the market today. And if you want an American Superbike out there in the fray, what's stopping *you* from throwing the down the gauntlet (keeping with the Stormtrooper imagery ) and having a go at it yourself.
I've met Erik quite a few times, and he's not the kind of guy who'll jump in and do things half assed. He's also not the kind of guy who will want to win by securing unfair advantages over his competitors. And finally, as a responsible businessman, he knows he needs to do what makes financial sense if he wants his long term goals to come true.
You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but I respectfully disagree.
Oh, and Crusty. Good points.
Henrik
(not feeling screwed at all) |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 12:41 am: |
|
Do you seriously think that Buell and HD would invest the kind of money in all of the new engineering and machinng that went into the RR and ONLY build 50 of them??? As those are already gone,kinda begs the question,how many CAN you sell? And to justify those expenditures it is almost certain to end up in streetbikes.
And I can already see the next Bonneville bike based on an XB frame with the turbo blowing into those huge 62mm stacks.Open loop injection,just what I needed----not to mention some nice aero bobywork as I cannot seem to find any old RR stuff in my quest to see 200 mph and above. |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 05:35 am: |
|
Buell currently has 200 folks waiting.
Frankly, given that I paid $17K for a 1990 RS-1200 in 1990, I'll let you convert that to "today's dollars".
In addition, the XBRR comes, I suspect, in a much greater state of readiness. The XR750's from Harley-Davidson came with a set of caveats that what you were getting was pretty much a set of rough castings ready to be machined and you were a fool to start the bike in the supplied condition. This allowed folks to bore to suit.
Buell will be building all the XBRR's necessary to satisfy demand. There will be tremendous benefits trickling down.
These are smart people. We'll know more at the end of the day. |
Jens
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 05:50 am: |
|
Doughnot, for Europe I can tell you that the Company have an eye on it what customers get the XBRR. I know that Dealers whithout roadrace experience and without a raceteam have to show concepts how they plan to race this bike.
For Germany I can say these XBRR´s I know what coming, going definatly on the racetrack.
Only this way make any sense to show the brand and push the developing of the aircooled V2 forward. Like Firemanjim wrote, get one on the salt and let the roadracing Teams worldwide push up the limits.
Jens |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 08:00 am: |
|
Jens:
Well put. This bike is made to race!
I'm sorry you can't join us for Daytona. Do you Sebastian? He'll be here from Germany.
All the best,
Court |
186bigtwin
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 08:36 am: |
|
Anybody know what day practice starts for Formula Extreme during Bike week? |
Jens
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 09:00 am: |
|
Court,
of course I know Basti. He and his father are well known as HD/Buell collectors. RR 1200, RS 1200 etc.
We see us next year, maybe not only as visitors.
Jens |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 09:04 am: |
|
"We'll know more at the end of the day"
Hey Court, which day? As you know by now, our thirst for information is insatiable
(or at least mine is).
Dangling things like this,
"Buell will be building all the XBRR's necessary to satisfy demand"
is going to start a feeding frenzy. |
Scott_in_nh
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 10:09 am: |
|
I think, in the hundreds of posts and several articles that I've read, something to the effect that Buell does not want a new street model using this engine to eat into it's current model sales.
Does anybody besides me think that this means that a larger sport touring bike with lots of room for 2 up may be on the way?
Something like Erik's take on a ZZR-1200, BMW whatever or 'Busa? Riders have been asking for it, they currently don't make one, and it sure would be cool!
Of course, I couldn't afford it, but today's new bikes are tomorrows used bikes....
Sorry if this has already been discussed, too many threads to keep up with! |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 10:28 am: |
|
StormTrooper,
I'm watching,,,,,?
Jens, Ich wunsche, daB Eifel gruppe Jahr zeigen wurde! Mein schriftlicher Deutscher saugt. Kann ich Sie anrufen und Ihren Verstand andern? Ralph auch!
G2 |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 04:09 pm: |
|
186,
FX practice starts Wednesday afternoon at 4:20 p.m.
Daytona Bike Week schedule. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 04:48 pm: |
|
Why would they start at 4:20 exactly? |
Dago
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 05:18 pm: |
|
To be sure all the stoners are busy so nothing goes awry. |
Xlcr
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 05:23 pm: |
|
Stormtrooper, is that you, Hollingsworth? |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 06:00 pm: |
|
For those of you who do not yet feel screwed, when will you? Will it be when a road going RR variant fails to materialize? ... Or, will it be when you visit your local HD dealer to get some new performance additions for your current XB ride – trickle down from the RR - and you find they don’t exist?
Honestly, given that Buell has championed the idea that race bikes don't make good street bikes, I'd feel screwed if all of a suddenly they streetified the RR. I'd feel like they lied to me. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 06:05 pm: |
|
They did streetify the RR... It's a 12R .
That said though... With a shorter stroke but a bigger bore to bring the low end power back but it'll rev out to 8500... That would be fun too .
Errr.... wait... no.... They racefied the 9/12R.
(Message edited by M1Combat on February 07, 2006) |
Madduck
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 06:37 pm: |
|
Fall 2004 I mentioned that I had heard of something tall in the way of a dual purpose bike had been seen at Buell headquarters. A lot of people shot holes in that observation. I sold my BMW and DaveS made Ferris & me a pretty good deal on it when it came out. I am selling my last BMW (R1200RT) this spring just so I can have some cash available should Buell come out with something "streetable" looking like the XBRR. The rest can talk all you want, I believe in being prepared, and Buell has been very good to me over the years.
(Message edited by MadDuck on February 07, 2006) |
Stormtrooper
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 07:12 pm: |
|
Gents
Thanks again for the space for discussion. In reading the comments, I think Henrik has best paraphrased the gist of my thoughts:
"1) that you are unhappy with the AMA for letting the RR race in FX, and 2) that you're disappointed that you can't buy a street going RR now"
The two ideas, however, I think, are linked, and that if we don't have the RR now, we won't get the RR. I don’t buy the “unlimited modification” portion of the AMA rules extends far enough to cover what is rather, for all intents and purposes, a new motor. I say shame on Buell for skirting the “street” qualifications as defined in the rules and shame on the AMA for allowing its participation. I fear that because such events have occurred that this engine will likely result in a Buell VR1000 – meaning a very cool ride none of us of more pedestrian ilk will likely have the chance to own. While we may have hope to cling to, we have history to learn from. 50, 200, 500 - pick whatever low volume, semi-production number you would like to use in order to capitalize on the collect ability of an exclusive HD/Buell race product that has never produced a street variant. It is my opinion that the XBRR is a “silver bullet” vehicle, built with the singular intent on racing competitively within the only series for which Buell could make an argument for its inclusion. Superstock and Superbike both have rules containing “certification” language, which, I’m guessing here, would seem to preclude the participation of the XBRR – of course it is the AMA and an HD product, so one never knows. Time will tell.
At this point, opinion seems to have it, that 50 bikes exist. It remains to be seen how many privateers (using that term loosely here, as HD Dealer supported riders hardly seem to fit the description) flock to this ripping deal of an FX bike. I, too, have the same question as Doughnut, which I think is a good one. And whilst it’s true, to some degree, as Whodom points out, that some quality improvements seem to be coming from such XBRR pursuits, I think it’s unlikely that if you put your oil pump drive gear under your pillow, that the Buell Fairy will bring you an XBRR. I honestly couldn’t guess what it costs to put a competitive FX bike together, but in perusing the ’06 Motorcyclist Buyers Guide, it would appear that privateers running Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, or Suzuki marques have a pretty good base to work from. Regardless of the Buell entry, Suzuki riders and the Yamaha folks seem to have been granted some significant development for ’06. Hey, what’s that, Yamaha has two R6’s!! Hmmmmm, looks like someone could be playing by the rules……, and a customer can purchase the street variant??!!
I realize my opinion is not a popular one. That's cool. But, and I'm guessing here, when you realize the meaty, tricky bits on the RR will not make it to your XB, and in '07 when an RR road bike fails to materialize, maybe, just maybe, more of you will feel as I do now. We can table the discussion until such time.
Lastly, for Anon, I must say, an interesting perspective on some of the potential competition coming from within this country. It’s been some time since the “Barn” was left behind, but I would’ve thought it still close enough for you to feel blessed for your good fortune in allying with HD, rather than sniping at those less so. Hype? T-shirts? Well, at least your T’s are free for those with a VIN.
Will we have to pay for the hats? |
|
XBRR Threads Consolidated Here! »
We all got screwed - the novel »
Archive through February 07, 2006