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Diablo
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 09:36 am: | 
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I suspect that Eric's team will work hard to try to win some places at Daytona with the new XBRR. I would really love to see our brand winning (why not)a BIG event and I really believe that they will focus their strategy in less pit stops than the competition. It is proven that the XB platform can carry lots of entry and exit corner speed and with that massive torque output I am pretty sure that the rear tire will last more making the bike easier to control as the laps pass by...(smoother power delivery = less tire wear). The first time we raced a Buell (X1 Lightning - 1999) in a 6h endurance race we did 3 less pit stops than the rest of the Yamahondakawasakis (Ducati's don't show up in Greek endurance races because they won't last that long with the heat we 'suffer' in summer...)by the way we finished 4th! So what do you think, would we be able to reduce the difference between the Japanese (better?) bikes and riders? |
Xlcr
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 01:57 pm: |
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Well, I originally thought the Buell's biggest advantage would be in the infield, where it's short wheelbase and steep geometry allows it to turn inside the competition, and having twice as much torque allows it to power out faster. But as I study the aero bodywork of the RR and compare it to the styled fairings of the Japanese fours, I realize that the Buell will also have a major advantage on the banking.
The new R6 may look cool with its sharp lines and F1 style 'barge boards', and I'm not saying there is no aero involved, the Japanese fairings do work some, and keep wind blast off of your torso, but they were designed first and foremost to win over the buyer with their 'racey' looks, NOT to circulate the high banks as the Buell was. I've seen a lot of posts by I-four fans online saying the bike was ugly. Well so it is, but form follows function, and that fairing looks like it does for one reason only.
SO, I'm expecting to Buells to reach higher speeds on the banking because of lower drag co-efficient. Also, looking at the new engine leads me to believe that it will make more than 135 RWHP as some have guessed. Current racing Buells already reach that level, and this is obviously well past them, so I'm saying 150 RWHP, which is as much as the 600s, but as I mentioned before, with twice the torque.
SO..... logically, it will be faster on the straights, faster in the corners, and require less frequent pit stops....
Final conclusion? I think Buell is bringing a bunch of guns to a knife fight. Any other opinions? |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 03:03 pm: |
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I think the FX bikes were closer to somewhere around 145RWHP two years ago... I still think we'll see 155-160 once the chips are down for this year.
Guns to a knife fight?  |
Whodom
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 06:01 pm: |
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XLCR, I've been thinking about it this way. The XBRR is basically equivalent to a NASCAR Nextel series engine in bore x stroke, valve arrangement, and RPM limits. It has the additional plus of fuel injection. The NASCAR engines are evidently developing something over 750 HP from 358 cubic inches (fairly reliably over ~500 miles), which works out to about 2.1 HP per cubic inch. Based on that, the XBRR at a little over 80 cubic inches should be capable of producing at least 167 crankshaft HP. I'd say 170 crankshaft HP and 150 RWHP isn't out of the question by any means. |
Jimmytwobuells
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 09:10 am: |
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I think it's asking an awful lot to expect a new team with new bikes and new riders to show up at Daytona and run up front. That being said I think Buell has a heck of a package that should be competitive. Diablos right, it's gonna come down to tires. Anyone think Buell can do the entire 200 on one set? Maybe the front but I bet they'll have to change the rear. Without quickchange equipment their gonna waste a lot of time in the pits. However it turns out I wish I could be there to see it!
Jim |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 07:25 pm: |
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According to Roadracingworld march 2003 issue, they will have quick change equipment, and it
will be available at from any Buell dealer which could be nice for wera teams. |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 09:29 pm: |
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The Road Racing World article really goes in-depth on the construction of the motor, developed by engineers led by Jamie McNaughton of Harley. Before Harley McNaughton worked on the Ford Mustang Cobra V-8. At Harley he started working on the V-Rod engine program, which included working in Germany for seven years. After that, McNaughton was assigned to the VR-1000 Superbike to assess the motor in the closing stages of that project.
In his spare time he drag-races V-Rods, winning the AHDRA V-Rod National Championship beating Tripp Nobles.
So he has been working on this stuff for quite a while. |
Vonsliek
| | Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 09:57 pm: |
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back to fairings & drag-coeffiency .. motogp prototypes have fairly ugly fronts .. nothing like the showroom models .. say R1 looks the tits, but M1 looks kinda blunt & aside from pretty paint .. rather tame. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 10:12 pm: |
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Exactly. The quote from Erik is something like : after spending time in the wind tunnel we went
from the worst coefficient of drag to the best in the (FX) class.
The shape of the xbrr is NO mistake.
Aviation engineers know and have proven that round nosed objects move more easily through the
air than angular ones (f117's shape is functional for stealth rather than aerodynamic efficiency).
Bring 'em on. This Daytona 200 will be the most interesting in YEARS. No matter the outcome. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 07:31 am: |
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I don't buy that at all. Look at the test M1's where all you can see is a carbon bodywork, no paint. You can clearly see the bikes lines and the M1 is a very sharp and nice looking bike. Unlike the 04/5 R1 which is absolutely f**king awful!
As for all the hype surrounding wind tunnel testing on the XBRR. Why did they overlook the front hugger? I've asked before, but as is usual of Buell know it all's, mention a floor in the product and they keep stum!
I guess the front hugger can't harm the airflow that much, but all the comparisons made here towards the RR, that front hugger would have me believe otherwise.
Another thing I happen to know. When Suzuki were looking for 200mph with the Hayabusa in design, they concentrated heavily on the front hugger to stop lift under the fairing at high speed. Suzuki took some inspiration in the hugger shape from F1 wing shapes.
Rocket |
Dana P.
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 07:50 am: |
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They won't have quick change equipment.That went bye bye last year. |
186bigtwin
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 09:58 am: |
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Does anyone know which teams will be on the XBRR's, who the riders are, and more important when does practice start for formula extreme during speedweek? And is any one gonna ride one in AHRMA for a little extra track time? Used to watch the BRITTEN do that, Hope this thing is holds together! |
Xb9
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 10:54 am: |
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Regarding the front hugger, maybe it's design offers better cooling for the ZTL front brake?
Therefor it is a compromise between aerodynamics and proper cooling for the brake? Just a guess. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 01:25 pm: |
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Rocket,
Consider the difference in frontal area presented by a big IL4 with radiator compared to the Buell V-Twin?
I doubt very much that the wind tunnel testing was "hype." An unfortunate characterization that.
Also, front hugger is unsprung mass. Maybe handling took precedence over aerodynamics? |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 01:25 pm: |
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Lets's see 186
for Warr's UK........Jeremy McWilliams (according to his web site still provisional)
for Hal's USA........Mike Cicotto (confirmed)
for a Germany........Rico Panzkopher (confirmed)
for Canada...........Pascal Picotte (confirmed, or not depending on the source)
As for extra track time, you may see some teams getting seat time during CCS racing. The LW Superbike, GT lights, and super-twins are the
most likely classes. The RR will probably be over-powered for their weight to be elligible for ASRA (used to be formulaUSA)Thunderbike.
(Message edited by diablobrian on February 04, 2006) |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 02:11 pm: |
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Buell Formula Xtreme testing continues this week at the Texas Motor Speedway outside of Dallas / Fort Worth.
Anyone from Texas going to try to see it? |
186bigtwin
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 02:16 pm: |
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Thanks, Diablobrian, I'm going down to Gainesville on March 4th and 5th to watch the AHDRA opener, ( I love those TOP FUELERS ) and then over to Daytona to see the XBRR, gonna have to be satisfied with practice though, I can't stay around until Sunday to watch the 200. I'm riding down from the Atlanta area on the Road Glide (yeah, I got a bagger also) Should be a fun trip, any body else going down? We could meet at the Wing House right up from the speedway and have a beer.
***STEVE* |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 02:27 pm: |
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Where'd you hear that Jim? |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 02:53 pm: |
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I don't think that they'll be there for that race 186. It would kind of spoil the
big unveiling at the 200.
I was really referring to the rest of the year in regards to other racing classes.
That's not to say that there won't be some great racing at the ccs/asra races in Daytona.
Because there are some great Buell teams showing up. But I wouldn't count on seeing the
Only 4 XBRRs that will be completed by then. |
Jimmytwobuells
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 03:27 pm: |
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I heard the same thing about testing at Texas Speedway next week. Supposed to be a couple of journalist riding the XBRR also. Might want to keep an eye on RRW.com for a test report. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 04:00 pm: |
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Sorry Blake. I was trying to bait someone in the know to explain.
I don't buy the brake cooling deal. I'd consider a perimeter brake to be more in the wind than a disc sat near to the wheel centre.
As for frontal area on an IL4. Those 600's are tiny. But I accept there may be an advantage to not having radiators to cool, but then again, an air cooled twin is going to need a lot of air passing around those cylinders. Is there an advantage or not? It wouldn't surprise me if it was against Buell. More so when you consider the work rate of that big twin engine and how much more air that will need to cool off.
Rocket |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 05:04 pm: |
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from roadracingworld.com
quote:Picotte, Ciccotto, McWilliams and Penzkofer are expected to test their Buell Firebolt XB-RRs at Texas World Speedway in early February. Texas World Speedway is a “superspeedway” with an infield road course and 33-degree banking that offers a similar experience to Daytona International Speedway (which has 31-degree banking)
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Jima4media
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 05:10 pm: |
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Also Cycle News...
http://www.cyclenews.com/ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=8729
Among the tests of the pre-production models is one scheduled for Feb. 7-10 at Texas World Speedway in College Station, Texas. The track, with its two-mile banked oval and numerous configurations, comes closest to approximating the g-forces of the high banks of Daytona, where testing is at a premium, especially this time of year.
(Message edited by jima4media on February 04, 2006) |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Saturday, February 04, 2006 - 06:06 pm: |
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I have heard/seen at least tacit confirmation of all the riders except Picotte from their sponsors.
Why the silence there? Maybe an issue with his current contract?
When will we see the first outing for Rich Conrath's team? I would love to see both Hale and McWilliams
on Buells at the same time. Huge Photot op, but it looks like it won't happen. |
Jens
| | Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 06:12 am: |
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Rocket,
to brake means to turn force into heat. This fact is always the same not changing what kind or numbers of calipers and disks you use. You get rid of the heat on two ways, 1st heattransfer over the materials (from brakepad over the caliper to the lowerforkend and from disk into front wheel). 2nd to the passing air, this factor is the important one, and here you have two mainparameters. 1st the surface of the used components, 2nd the location of the component in the system.
The disc is good located for maximum heattransfer and have a big surface. Working great.
The single used 6 piston ZTL caliper have less surface (in the side profile were the air is passing) than one of the modern radial calipers used as a pair. So because of the smaller surface (50% at least to a double calipersystem) the "heattransfer per time factor" over the caliper is much less.
I bet that directly behind the lowerfrontend is an area of dead air (I promise you to find that out (-: because we are with one of Eriks old RSS at moment at german University in the windchannel).
If you look now on the XBRR 8 piston caliper you notice from the point of heattransfer two things, First the surface is now much bigger than on the 6 P and 2nd the caliper is much longer. So long that the caliper look now out under the lowerforkend and get there full frontal air (You dont turn the caliper deaper(for again more cooling) because of the massproblems you get with that).
The new XBRR 8P ZTL brings us, if you calculate the brakepad- and disksurface, very near to the modern 300mm double / radialfixed brakesystems. If you add now the other positive
things the ZTL brings us, like weight, less rotatingmasses and direct "disk to tyre" connection, I think in the end this system will beat the others.
Only in the heattransfer is still a difference, but there a scoop can be the next step.
Jens |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 08:07 am: |
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Jens, you've done your homework. I hadn't considered the brake cooling in such a scenario. Yes this is a racing bike, so thank you for opening my eyes.
Rocket |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 09:21 am: |
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THUD |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 03:56 pm: |
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OH like I'm supposed to know the cooling properties of a ZTL caliper set-up on a racing motorcycle?
Jens is well in the know. I thank him for his insight. Regardless, I still don't buy the wind tunnel testing and a stock front hugger thrown in the mix. Every race bike in existence today demonstrates some kind of aerodynamic profiled front hugger. If because of a ZTL front brake set-up Buell need to ignore the advantage of streamlining their front hugger, then so be it.
Then again, if this is the sarcastic comment I've been waiting a few days for, it's in the wrong thread. But you knew that. Frankly, the THUD should be the sound of the rock you've been hiding under for the last few days, falling back on your head.
Rocket |
Dana P.
| | Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 04:07 pm: |
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Only 4 will be built Diablo??? You sure about that?? |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 04:16 pm: |
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4 In time for Daytona. That has been the mantra of BMC in all of the print and electronic media. The other 46 will be built after Daytona.
Having said that I'm sure there will be at least 1 (maybe more) bikes worth of unassembled spares in the pits at Daytona. |
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