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Jlnance
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 09:05 am: | 
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Back in about 1992 I was just getting proficient with Unix computers. Also about that time, a college student in Finland decided that he was going to write his own version of Unix, which he called Linux, and give it away for free.
I started using Linux. It was great. There weren't many of us who ran it at first. But we knew it was something special. We thought everyone should run it.
But oh the ridicule we took for liking it. "No ones going to use something free to do something important." "No company would ever choose Linux instead of Microsoft." "No one can make any money with free software." "No company is going to use something that they cant sue someone if it breaks." This was all the more interesting since none of us were trying to sell the stuff. We just liked it.
In the midst of all this, someone recalled a quote from Ghandi:
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you and then you win" - Gandhi
We could see how well we were doing by where in Ghandi's progression we were. And its been pretty accurate too.
Today, Badweb is running on a Linux server. So are operations at Ebay, Google, Morgan Stanley & a zillion other places.
Watching Buell makes me feel like I did watching Linux in about 1996. And if I look at the reaction to the XBRR and I look at Ghandi's timeline, well I think we are moving from step 2 to step 3.  |
Rubberdown
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 09:09 am: |
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Interesting historical analogy, thanks. |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 02:31 pm: |
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Then there is Mac OS X. Free Open Source BSD Unix. Macintosh look and feel. No worms, trojans, viruses, malware, and it runs on the latest Intel hardware as well.
There is always a good choice, a better choice, and the best choice.
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Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 03:14 pm: |
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Very interesting thread  Linus made global changes by making things work better.
Good choice = Gentoo
Better choice = Debian
Best choice = BSD |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 03:48 pm: |
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Great post JLN!
JimA,
Do you imagine that if the market share were reversed, that maybe it would be the Mac OS that would be subject to the will of the world's evildoers in the way of "worms, trojans, viruses, malware"? I bet it would.
My wife the architect/interior-designer uses a high power Mac running OS X V3 at work every day. She just ordered a new Dell, a heck of a lot more bang for the buck. At work her mac used to crash or lock up at least once or twice a day. The mac OS X V3 has mostly fixed that though and she likes it a lot better than the horrible old OS 9.
Seems to me that MS and their OS has gone through the Ghandi scenario too. If one falls victim to a worm, trojan, virus, or malware, one really has no one to blame but oneself. No? |
Cataract2
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 04:05 pm: |
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Working on learning Linux myself.
Anyways, that is interesting. Can't wait for step 4. |
Odinbueller
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 04:13 pm: |
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Hey Jim!
Awesome analogy. Let's just hope that Buell doesn't go the same way Red Hat Linux did 
There was a great documentary on the history of Linux on the Sundance channel a couple of years ago, and for the life of me I can't remember the title. Great movie if you're into the subject. |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 04:13 pm: |
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Micro$oft must take its share of the blame for OS weakness -- releasing test environment code, as opposed to production level code, is unacceptable. But, if you have monopolized the market you can get away with it.
If you look at the whole spectrum, 7 layer OSI, there's enough blame to go around for weakness at all levels -- unfortunately the most exploitable spots reside at L2 & L3 (Please Do Not Throw Salami Pizza Away.)
OS X is a dramatic step forward for the typical users (excepting the long-term BSD types.) It's time to run OS X on a virtual machine to see if it lives up to the hype. Should be interesting.
Blake,
I like the Ghandi analogy, but have to disagree with fault assignment.
G2 |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 04:18 pm: |
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Odinbueller, Redhat IPO'd redhot and then face planted (not unlike many other dot.bombs.)
They're presently a very robust distro point for a very sound product. You'd be hard pressed to find a data center without their product running. They don't get the press they got from a few years ago, but they're still growing their market share and they do have the best (arguable point) commercial flavor available.
I'm in now way trying to start an argument with you just sharing my experience of working with RH prods on a daily basis.
YMMV,
G2 |
Odinbueller
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 04:57 pm: |
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No worries, Bigdaddy, I know Linux is a great OS, just the last I heard from them was a bit bleak. Glad to hear they've still got a solid standing in the industry. |
Ginzero
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 04:58 pm: |
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Its nice to know BW is running on Linux.. yet another reason why I love this site! I manage a few productional beowulf clusters and still even use slackware!! |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 05:24 pm: |
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Blake, while you are correct that if Mac / Linux was more widespread it would probably get more worms / etc, it would not be nearly as bad as Windows.
Unix systems in general do a great job of segmenting the application space from the OS space from the user space. So I can read and write files I own in my user space, the applications can read and write files they own in their space, and the OS can read and write files it owns in it's space. The Windows system is *still* one big snarled mess, and to install and run some stupid little trivial program, it typically needs rights to make unlimited changes to the operating system and registry. Duh!
The analogy I use would be that if windows computers were humans, instead of shaking hands when they meet people, they would be performing surgury on each others brain stem every time they met each other (with the predictable results including the three snarled up "friends and family" windows machines waiting for me to fix within arms reach of me right now)... |
Glitch
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 09:52 pm: |
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Josh_
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 10:29 pm: |
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"In fact, the reality is reversed. It's Gates who's making a dent in the universe, and Jobs who's taking on the role of single-minded capitalist, seemingly oblivious to the broader needs of society."
article |
Josh_
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 10:32 pm: |
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a different article on Wired ran this line which I think is pretty funny :
"The company has also expressed fears that making its source code public could allow hackers to find security holes in Microsoft products -- though, so far, intruders are doing fine without the source." |
Cataract2
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 11:14 pm: |
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"The company has also expressed fears that making its source code public could allow hackers to find security holes in Microsoft products -- though, so far, intruders are doing fine without the source."
In the words of Metallica. Sad but true. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 02:00 am: |
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Brain surgery I can tolerate. As long as there is no sex change stuff. |
Bikergoddess
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 08:08 am: |
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As much as M$ irritates me, I really have to respect what they've done - get such a large market share.
Apple decided to remain proprietary and it cost them. Sure, things ran faster and with fewer viruses (virii?) but you had to hope they'd written the app you wanted. They also had the benefit of knowing exactly what hardware the OS would have to deal with.
Microsoft, on the other hand, supports (in a theoretical way) a variety of chips and cards and other fun devices, made by a lot of really different companies. They've also got a lot of backwards compatibility. And they try to make all that mess user friendly. It really could be worse.
They certainly owe a lot of success to marketing, too. And who can you blame for falling for that? Consumers.
I don't really get the hate for a company that's done well for itself in a capitalistic society...
Laura |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 08:38 am: |
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Brain surgery I can tolerate. As long as there is no sex change stuff.
Where do you think your brain lives? |
Glitch
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 08:43 am: |
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Apple decided to remain proprietary and it cost them.
Agree.
I've often said, that if Apple would compile their OS to work on open architecture (IBM clones) that they very well could take over the home market.
It's pretty much too late for the business world.
I don't really get the hate for a company that's done well for itself in a capitalistic society...
It's not what they did, it's how they did it. They would see competition, let's say Navigator, when Navigator (or any other browser back when you had to buy them) Microsoft would give their's away, killing all the other browsers. They did the same thing with (or close to it) with their Media player. They would either give it away, or bundle it with their OS. Makes it easy for the consumer, but impossible to compete with. |
186bigtwin
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 08:50 am: |
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It will be very interesting to see the top speed of the XBRR; that is the ultimate Dyno. The Engine looks to have all the good stuff,The fairing may be a little too angular, Round works best for a subsonic design and the rear is just as important as the front. Remember Lucifers Hammer went 171 on less than 120rwhp with an engine that was never bigger than 1160cc. I think a newer smaller XRTT fairing would work better. we will all see in about six weeks. I'm going down to Daytona to watch practice and cheer!!!!! |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 09:28 am: |
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Laura, I don't feel "hate" for capitalistic enterprise -- quite the opposite in fact.
Apple/Jobs saw the future and they now run Berkley Software Distribution, yep, BSD!
Microsoft, always with a finger in the air to get a feel for what happened 2 or 3 years ago starts talking about Longhorn -- AKA Vista for release purposes. Do your own DD but what you'll find is they've bastardized KDE and they'll push it out July/August of this year. The GUI is called Aero, but long term open sourcers will laugh at the so called innovation they bring to the table with this release. The biggest farce of this release is the WCF (Windows Communication Foundation) so their new relase will work more like a UNIX based OS -- I could go on here but I don't want to be a boorish snob,,,but I have to mention MSH or Micro$oft Shell which is their UNIX like command line interface.
Micro$oft with all of their resources are just now releasing functionality that has been readily available, in some cases, for 20 years. I touched my first BSD distro in 1980 and it worked then. System V came out and took many users away and the n the open source community banded together to bring it back to prominence -- BSD can be traced back to UC Berkley in the mid 70's.
There's just so many inherent shortcomings in a Micro$oft environment it's very hard to enumerate them all.
I guess what I'm saying is do you want a Honda Accord or a Yugo but, the Honda's free and the Yugo is a purchase -- no brainer from my point of view, but I have three kids in college (and their laptops aren't running Micro$oft either) and I'm forced to be prudent with my spending habits.
Fans of Micro$oft shouldn't be forced to put up with such a sorry product -- no flaming here folks that just my opinion and nothing, absolutely nothing, you say can change my position.
Since we have such a large group of like minded individuals on this site -- we're different any many senses -- it may be time to start online Open Source classes :-) Once you became familiar, and the learning curve isn't nearly as steep as many would have you believe, with BSD/Linux/YourDistro you won't go back.
Questions? Bang 'em out and send them in. In fact I'd be very happy to help anyone escape the clutches of Micro$oft.
I've not even touched on the ethics of how Micr$oft helped push their market share either. Dirty pool is dirty pool and I don't care how many Rear Wheel Dollars you have.
G2
(Message edited by bigdaddy on January 29, 2006) |
Doon
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 10:10 am: |
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W00T. Who knew you could find a OSS thread here As as person who runs Datacenters built on FreeBSD, I am kinda partial to it (actually have a daemon tattooed on my leg). But the computers at home Run Gentoo, Slackware,FreeBSD,OpenBSD, Solaris, Irix, Mac OSX 10.4, oh yeah and a Winders box to play games on . Being in the northeast I've had a lot of time to play with the computers this winter. Too cold/nasty to ride much and not enough snow to ski and snowboard. So Instead I read everything here and dream about my new lighting.. (Waiting on delivery) |
Glitch
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 11:15 am: |
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Micro$oft is the bane of my existence.
I support Coca-Cola's hardware and software for their legal eagles.
I run Mandriva (used to be Mandrake) on my personal laptop, it came with Win98, but never ran very well, forget about running Win2K or anything after that. Mandriva runs very smooth and NEVER locks up, Mandriva is also brand new.
Which brings me to my point.
Each time a new CPU comes out, Micro$oft makes sure the OS uses every bit of the resources available, leaving very little left to run the apps. Linux has a smaller foot print allowing apps to use more resources, that makes for a much more stable computing environment.
Buell has a small bike letting the rider be in more control. |
Chainsaw
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 11:17 am: |
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At work her mac used to crash or lock up at least once or twice a day
Been waiting over a year for my Mac Mini at home to crash. Someday maybe. Can't even recall a crash on my G4 tower at work running OSX. We've got a bunch of Macs and 2 PC's at work. Never had a service call on the Macs in 12 years, can't say the same for our Dells.
I've often said, that if Apple would compile their OS to work on open architecture (IBM clones) that they very well could take over the home market.
The new Macs with the Intel chips are rumored to be able to run Unix, OSX, or Windows!
Apple's market share is climbing recently. The ubiquitous presence and acceptance of iPods is helping convert the masses to the Apple side. More people are discovering you don't have to put up with the inherent flaws of MicroSoft Windows.
If people's cars were as reliable as their PC's, 90% of this country would be walking to work every day. It amazes me that the man that invented that software is the richest man in America. There's a sucker born every minute. spoken by a stockholder in MicroSoft, Dell, Intel, and Apple
Oops, forgot the XBRR content...
Will the XBRR motor fit in my Sportster? I wanna smoke the tire clean off while doing a wheelie. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 11:24 am: |
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The new Macs with the Intel chips are rumored to be able to run Unix, OSX, or Windows!
You missed my point.
Apple's hardware is expensive, clones are cheap.
Apple could take over the home market with their OS.
Besides I know way more people that would run Mac's OS on their clone than I do people that would want to run Windoze on their Macs.
Wait, I know no one that would want to run Windoze on their Mac.
Will the XBRR motor fit in my Sportster?
It's only a question of money. |
Chainsaw
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 12:17 pm: |
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Apple's hardware is expensive, clones are cheap
Apple tried clones in the 1990's. The Motorola StarMax (among others) was half the price, (IIRC $2000 compared to $4,000) and came with a 5 YEAR WARRANTY. We ran 2 at work till the processor speed and RAM capacity were too antiquated for current applications (Photoshop & Illustrator). FWIW: I went thru 3 CD drives and one malfunctioning stick of RAM on my StarMax.
Apple pulled the clone licensing after just a year or so, assuming because clones were taking a bite out of 'premium' machine sales.
The New Mac Mini is $499. I believe this is how they've been building market share.
Besides I know way more people that would run Mac's OS on their clone than I do people that would want to run Windoze on their Macs.
I hear ya! I'm assuming the machine could be set up as a dual boot OSX/XP as a crutch for those on the fence about switching. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 01:09 pm: |
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The fairing is a compromise between optimum aerodymanics and minimum moment of inertia in order to maintain flickability/handling. A big giant bulbous fairing can hurt handling. You know, that whole mass centraliztion thing.
Yep, some folks have good luck with their macs. I understand the OS X version three is wonderful. Prior to that, NOT. Mom is looking to replace her G3 with a PC too. The G3 has been nothing but heartache.
I'm still running Win2000 on my 5-1/2 year old Dell laptop. It's darn near bulletproof. Not so the prior Win95 or even Win98. They were problematic at times. Never as bad as what I've witnessed on my mother's G3 running either OS9.3 or OSX V1. |
Cataract2
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 01:27 pm: |
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Well, I have a Gentoo test bed system at home so I can learn Linux. Eventially I plan on switch my main PC over to a dual boot system and maybe in the future making Windows a small part of my usage except for gaming.
My router though is linux. www.ipcop.org
(Message edited by cataract2 on January 29, 2006) |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 01:32 pm: |
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Where do I start? Uh, well, I'll start with Glitch!
I normally suggest Mandriva for anyone wanting to put their toe in the water -- it's been excellent since the first 'drake release. If you ever get tired of it, or you just feel like making a change, check out Debian (app-get is butta and totally destroys dependency hell and most all compiling.) Props on the mobile platform OS,,,
Doon,
Gentoo rocks. I'm a bit prejudiced and all of my own boxes run FreeBSD -- got one unit running Knoppix STD for nothing but pen-testing. It's a semi-ancient (4/5 years old?) that just works really well in the role.
All,
New OSX will run on a barebones NewEgg box -- just saved you a chunk of freaking money 'eh? Apple hardware has never been that much better, if at all, than most of the other manufacturers, they have benefited from having more reliable OS and they now have the most reliable OS.
Multi users at home with different likes/dislikes? We now have some awesome freaking options! VMWare will allow you to create on very nice unit that will server every computing need in any household and most business. Build that killer box and then build your virtual machines (this isn't brain surgery either.) With the advent of OS X running on Intel you got the hook up going on. So, as an example, you could build a simple VMWare system running YourFavoriteLinux, Windoze, BSD, OS X, and serve up all your OS needs from one unit that's easily accessible from a junky old laptop, or Gofreakingrilla one too, using VMPlayer (think Citrix like, but on steroids.)
Multi OS computing has never been so easy.
I just can't figure out why Jim didn't use BSD in his story -- come on Jim,,,,,,, JK,,,, :-)
G2 |
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