| Author |
Message |
    
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 04:01 pm: | 
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Yeah José, where ya been?! |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 04:03 pm: |
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And that will suit me just fine  , as long as I can get the parts .
This is going to cost way too much money... Damnit. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 04:11 pm: |
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No racing license, no parts methinks. Also, doubtful much of the RR's engine go-fast stuff will bolt on to a stock engine. This stuff ain't for your street bike. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 04:32 pm: |
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I know...
Working on the race license as we speak (just ordered $720 worth of Kangaroo leather and $370 worth of stuff from Dave ), and that's why it'll cost so much... I'll need the cases too .
Now... What to spend the tax return on? Front or rear suspension? Hmmmm.... I think it'll have to be rear for now. Then I'll be saving up for a salvage titled bike...
I need sponsors. |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 09:33 pm: |
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M1,
I agree with your earlier assessment. We'll get the trickle down from this and it won't take forever. 115-120HP on the street would be the ticket and I'll guesstimate the initial cost will be in the $16-$18K range.
G2 |
Crusty
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 10:07 pm: |
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Knowing Buell history a little, I bet the cost will be quite a bit less than that. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 10:59 pm: |
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It is legal by both the letter and intent of the rules. Approved in writing by the AMA. Do you really think we would be that stupid not to make sure that is the case?
The RR hasn't even turned a wheel in competition, and the competition attacks violently. It will be available to 50 privateers, whereas not one of the factory Hondas, Yamahas, etc. will be at any price.
So which represents better competition and a more fair chance? Without a doubt, we do.
Read the next issue of Roadracing World. |
Xb9
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 11:17 pm: |
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I in no way thought Buell was that stupid, just needed something concrete, with all the BS flying around.. Thank you Anon!!!
Go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Buell
(Did I take that from Yamaha?) hehehehe
(Message edited by xb9 on January 27, 2006) |
Vonsliek
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 11:51 pm: |
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now THAT my friends, is a funny post above!
don't think it was yamaha, but it was a sponsor of motogp M1 #1 team. |
Dtx
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 12:22 am: |
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I cannot believe how paranoid the competition is about this bike and how ignorant some people are about Buells after reading all those links to other discussion boards. They are looking for something to not like or to discredit it. These people need to take it for what its worth...a piece of American Motorcycling history! Its a fantastic bike, its American made and I hope it wins. Its difficult to fix the misconception these people have. I think its sad more people in America are fans of other countries bikes than they are of anything that comes out of America. To me, thats just not very patriotic. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 08:37 am: |
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quote:"Superbike motorcycles must be street certified in the US and available through US retail dealers."
This rule is thanks to the HD VR1000/Yamaha R7, two bikes, like the RR, that were on the ragged edge of the rulebook.
The AMA has determined (in writing) that the RR is legal for FX, cool, great, go Buell, but don't expect the other manufacturers to take this lying down, that satire piece by Ohlin is funny precisely because it probably will happen.
Or, the AMA will nip this in the bud and will insert that sentence in the FX part of the rulebook next year.
(Message edited by José_quiñones on January 28, 2006) |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 09:03 am: |
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quote:How do you reconcile the term "unlimited" with your view of what a "modification" is? From my view, an unlimited amount of slight changes is the same as an unlimited amount of radical changes. The whole infinity thing comes into play.
I'll quote Roger for the answer:
quote:...well if its a modded production motor, than by default, a buell motor is a modded sportster motor, which anyone who was around for that disscution would agree that, that statement was never agreed upon(ie pepsi)
So in the end, i suspect that one person on the board owes another a Pepsi or has to agree that the motor is illegal
So which is it????
If the RR is an "unlimitedly modified" XB engine, then the XB engine is a "modified" XL engine, and you owe somebody a Pepsi.
To me at least, modifying is taking something original and altering it in some way, not throwing it aside and replacing it with an entirely new part cast from a different mold.
It's all semantics, the bike is legal, we'll see what happens at the track. |
Crusty
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 10:16 am: |
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Allright, look. The Pepsi thing refers to a bet between Dyna and myself over whether the new Sportster engine and the XB engine were the same or not. It ended up that we were both right, and we were both wrong. So when I see Dyna in Daytona, I think we should go over to Hooters and buy each other a Pepsi, while enjoying the scenery.
As far as the legality of the RR; it's legal, and I bet that by next year, they'll be a lot more common. I also think we're going to see those Cases and a few other tidbits on a street legal bike, so that next year there'll be no room for this debate.
Considering how good corporate espionage is; why is Honda so nervous? Do you think that maybe the XBRR could pull it off?  |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 02:33 pm: |
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JQ,
Please show me any factory superbike machine that is a "street motorcycle."
Your "nip it in the bud" rules change would make no difference as long as the same "unlimited" engine modification rule is maintained.
I think what you fail to recognize is that the rules for FX are formulated to create parity among various competing configurations of motorcycles. FX rules are not formulated to rope manufacturers into fielding street bikes. There are two AMA Pro Racing Superbike series classes that are formulated specifically for street bikes, Superstock and Supersport.
Superbike and FX rules are formulated differently, to allow various engine configurations to compete on an even playing field. Nothing more, nothing less.
You want parity among the competing machines? Then shouldn't you support some kind of claiming rule that requires any participating factory to provide a brand new ready to go racing machine for no more than oh, say... $31K? 
You seem to cling to the notion that the factory racing machines in FX and Superbike are street bikes. They are no such thing, though the superbike rules seem to require it. Not one of the factory superbikes or FX bikes is a street bike. The Buell XBRR is not a street bike. All are indeed based upon street bikes though.
The only difference is that Buell Motorcycle Company builds and sells motorcycles that are primarily built for the street; their racing versions thus require more modification to achieve parity. Japan Inc builds 600cc racing machines detuned to pass street bike requirements they are horrible street bikes.
But, Japan Inc has been wildly successfully in selling their marketing hype to folks like you who think that their approach is the only proper way to promote and define an American racing series. It is bullshit.
Lemans, MotoGP, Superbike, all provide different rules for different engine configurations. FUSA/CCS does/did so for virtually every class they have!
Why should FX be any different in providing different rules for different engine configurations so that they may compete on a level playing field? Because Japan Inc wants to maintain their advantage?
Of course, should the playing field in FX turn out to be not so level, then the rules should change. But not necessarily the approach. If the Buells dominate, then a reduced displacement limit might be in order. Obviously to require Buell to field a streetbike engine with excessive constraints on engine modifications would render them uncompetitive. Is that what you desire, to see the rules formulated such that Buell racing machines cannot be competitive?
You used to complain about the Buell racing hardware because it was unavailable to the general public. Now that the entire motorcycle is being made available along with parts, why are you not complaining about the unavailability of the HRC FX machines? You seem to have a very biased take on the racing rules and parity issue whenever it involves Buell motorcycles.
T'is an American racing series where the participation of American racing machines is likely to significantly improve fan base and revenue for AMAPR. You seem to imagine that Japan Inc holds all the leverage in this scenario. I strongly disagree. If the Japan Inc teams were to threaten to shun the FX class, they would be admitting that the big bad XBRR American racing machine was the better FX machine. I cannot think of a better marketing gift for Buell Motorcycle Company. I can see the headlines already.
Buell XBRR Frightens Competition in AMA Formula Xtreme
quote:A cynic is not merely one who reads bitter lessons from the past; he is one who is prematurely disappointed in the future.
Sydney J. Harris (b. 1917), U.S. journalist. On the Contrary, ch. 7 (1962).
The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations
(Message edited by blake on January 28, 2006) |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 02:45 pm: |
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modify:
1. To change in form or character; alter.
unlimited:
1. Having no restrictions or controls.
2. Having or seeming to have no boundaries; infinite: an unlimited horizon.
unlimited modification: An infinite change in form or character without boundary, control or restriction. |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 02:55 pm: |
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There is no parody in motorcycle racing. Ohlin Metzler proved that. There is no parity in motorcycle racing either. That is why it is racing. Each team tries to eliminate the parity with more skill, less weight, science, technology, materials, treachery and guile.
I expect that Honda and Yamaha will fill the podium this year because of several reasons.
1. Skill - Who has won Daytona 5 times? Who hasn't raced there?
2. Weight - the Japanese bikes and their riders weigh less
3. Technology - their parts still work better.
4. Horsepower is about equal.
It sure is good that you don't need a stopwatch for bench racing.
Just a good imagination, and a lot of faith.
Jim
(Message edited by jima4media on January 28, 2006) |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 03:23 pm: |
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Not sure there is much bench racing going on here. Its just that a lot of us are very enthused to see Buell supporting what appears to be a focused and competitive effort in AMA Formula Xtreme and the Daytona 200 no less.
Seems to me Jim that you are commenting on the relative performance of the XBRR wrt its competition. How do you possibly know what kind of performance the XBRR is capable of?
A reliable XR750 will put down 100 RWHP and will beat the snot our of 120+ RWHP Japan Inc 1000cc machines. Can you do the math? The best road racing machine is the one that works best as an entire system along with its pilot. More power doesn't automatically lead to a faster bike if it cannot maintain speed exiting the turns. More powerful brakes aren't so valuable if they upset the handling of the bike during turn-in. Less mass isn't as much of a benefit if the moment of inertia is higher.
I agree. Never ever count Miguel out of the Daytona 200. Any racer who starts aggressively mixing it up prior to mile 175 is likely to fade. Pretty sure that Pascal Picotte knows this. Not sure if Jeremy McWilliams does. I hope so. Cicotto is at home on Daytona. I hope he can rise to the occassion. He proved himself by nearly winning the Pro-Thunder championship, coming in 2nd by a only single point to a veteran WSB racer.
The front wheel/tire change for the Buell would appear to be problematic. Not sure how they will tackle the ZTL configuration in a quick change scenario.
Yeah, "parity", is what I meant before. Dumb Texan.  |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 05:41 pm: |
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It's only a Pepsi, give it up. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 05:46 pm: |
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btw, does anyone know if this racebike has a VIN number on the frame or engine?
quote:5. The following items may not be altered from the originally
approved model on all engine types except as noted:
a. Stock main frame
1. Frame must display vehicle identification number.
(Message edited by josé_quiñones on January 28, 2006) |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 05:55 pm: |
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FX rules are not formulated to rope manufacturers into fielding street bikes.
Do you even bother reading the rulebook?
quote:h. Approval of Formula Xtreme® Motorcycles
1. Only approved motorcycles may be used in Formula Xtreme
competition.
2. Formula Xtreme competition is restricted to motorcycles (engines and frames) produced for US street use and
available in the US through retail dealers.
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 06:06 pm: |
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Just to be clear, it's ok for the AMA I have no problem with it, I'm only suggesting where the debate will center if any other company wants to challenge this bike's eligibility.
You wasted so much typing trying to read things into what I posted that I clearly did not say.
I'm happy the bike exists and that it will race, I along with many others were asking for this type of bike years ago. |
Blublak
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 07:22 pm: |
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Just to keep the smiles going....
Or maybe you prefer something like...
 |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 09:15 pm: |
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Blake,
You said - How do you possibly know what kind of performance the XBRR is capable of?
That is exactly my point. It is called track record. The XBRR doesn't have a track record that anyone can point to when they say this bike is going to podium its first time out.
Miguel Duhamel, Jake Zemke, Jason DiSalvo, Honda, and Yamaha all have a track record this is unmatched in the motorcycle world.
Buell has never been in a Daytona 200 before.
Jim |
Crusty
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 09:24 pm: |
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Jim, why is Honda so afraid of a bike with no track record? |
Davegess
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 11:14 pm: |
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Buell has never been in a Daytona 200 before
I know one Buell who has been!
That said, beating the $100,000 dollar 600's at a horsepower track will be tough to do. (BTW what kind of top speed do the FX bike have compared to the Superbikes? The superbikes rand 1.38's and FX bike 1.42's at Daytona last year.)
At the tracks that place a premium on handling the Buell could be very tough. At $31000 it sure gives the little guy a chance to run a competitive bike. Somewhere there is a talented young rider who will ue the RR to launch a major career.
I am very excited about thia whole deal.
BTW thanks to all who are helping what I like to call "The Buell Liars Club" have its first Daytona meeting. And remember nothing that I say after the first two drinks is true |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 01:50 am: |
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JQ,
There is a pepsi in it for me? Cool!
To understand the rules one must read them in context and comprehensivley as a whole. Yes, the FX and Superbike machines begin life as production street bikes. Then they are allowed to be modified according to the class rules. Some more than others, all in order to create a level playing field for each engine configuration. After modification, they are not anything close to being a street bike.
Twin cylinder superbikes are allowed more extensive modification to help them maintain parity with the four cylinder competition. In prior years the twin cylinder superbikes were granted a 33% displacement advantage relative to their four cylinder competition. Neither right nor wrong, just two different approaches towards leveling the playing field for enthusiastic competitors who were running machines with different engine configurations.
There are two AMA classes where the bikes being raced are indeed very close to street legal motorcycles.
Seems simple to me.
You bet I read the rules. Pretty sure I understand them. I'll be watching the races and leave the whining griping rules contesting to the sore losers. It seems to me that the time to protest the rules pertaining to air-cooled twin cylinder machines in AMA FX was when they were implemented three years ago.
That time is past and Buell now has a bike that satisfies the rules and is apparently frightening the competition. Time to race.
Go!!!!!! Buell!  |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 01:51 am: |
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Sounds like Dave is fixin' to take up racing!
How's that for a start Dave? |
Glitch
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 09:04 am: |
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There is a pepsi in it for me? Cool!
What is it with y'all and pepsi?
Thanks for the support
It's the real thing
It seems to me that the time to protest the rules pertaining to air-cooled twin cylinder machines in AMA FX was when they were implemented three years ago.
True.
I read an article on the 600cc race bikes a while back, that showed what went into building a competitive 600cc machine. There wasn't much left of the street version, to the untrained eye it looked very much like a street bike because of the fairing covering most of the bike.
Maybe Buell should have come out with the XBR series with the new fairing last year... |
Cataract2
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 09:58 am: |
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Pepsi > Coke |
Crusty
| | Posted on Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 11:07 am: |
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I've been drinking Pepsi for over fifty years. It always tastes better than Croak-A Cola. You can drink whatever you want, but I know a good thing when I taste it. Just as I know a great bike when I ride it.
Most Coke lovers that I know prefer inline fours to V-twins, anyhow. |
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