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Richardcronrath
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 10:59 pm: | 
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I'm going to explain something here, since the point I was making was misjudged. I don't doubt Buell, the company or the people behind the XBRR. For anyone thinking I'm against this is wrong. MY Opinion was I would rather see a effort all year(I was getting E-mailed about this)which I am doing. Personally if it was Hal's and whoever else, good the more the better. As for "Buell not owing me anything" that comment was covering a question if I was pissed that Buell did not give me a bike. I have my XBs now and I have XBRRs coming, there for Buell does not owe me anything. Finally If I was the only Buell racing the whole season, I would have no idea how we were doing vs. other Buells. All I do is build race Buells, I'm not concerned about my competition, Bring it on!!!!! |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:52 pm: |
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Rich,
To answer your question, I'd rather see a season long successful effort than a single race unsuccessful effort. But to win Daytona would be HUGE! Ducati cannot finish a Daytona 200 race. If Buell can manage it, then that will be a great acheivment and bodes extremely well for future developments of our beloved air-cooled pushrod two-valve twin.
Matt,
Are you really that sure about the ZTL brake inferiority? Really? I have a difficult time reconciling the successes, however limited, of Buells racing with the ZTL brake and your take on it's performance. I guess the performance in the AMA FX series will be telling. We'll see if the significantly lighter front wheel/brake is more advantageous than conventional dual disk brakes.
Brian Nallin,
You go man! That was beautiful. Nice to see you chiming in. Don't be such a stranger!
M1,
You nailed it with the LeMans comparison.
Anonymous,
Thanks for taking time to advise the ignorant but thirsting for knowledge.  Does that 35 pounds weight reduction include the missing starter?
ANYONE, who thinks that the XBRR engine is not state of the art technology is ignorant of the true meaning of the phrase. I just don't know how to state that any less offensively. Some of the ignorance being espoused here is bewildering. Buell ain't about to show their hand to everyone at this stage of the game. So you imagine Buell came up with a brand new engine that puts out just 130 RWHP? I believe that would be extremely naive. You don't need anything near 62mm throttle bodies to make 130 RWHP. The thing looks like an XR750 on steroids. What does a modern-built XR750 make? Try around 100 RWHP, with 750 cc's. Can you do the math? Take away 10% for longevity considerations. What ya got?
How high tech is it really to have to use a secondary cooling fluid, a massive heat exchanger, and a convoluted plumbing/pumping system to keep the engine cooled? Answer: It ain't high tech at all. It is the easy solution to a difficult problem. True high tech will solve that same problem with less complexity.
Is it the exploitation of twice as many cylinders and four times as many valves that makes an engine high tech? No, that's just one solution to the problem of making more power. It ain't any more high tech than simply increasing displacement, as long as doing so remains a mass efficient solution.
Is it really so darn high tech to increase the complexity and weight of the cooling system or to increase the number of cylinders and valves and throttle bodies, or to make the stroke so stubby short that the engine can spin to stratospheric revs? No it ain't really, its actually a brute force solution in some cases and simply one of various approaches in others.
But it's all soooooo high tech in some folks' minds to increase just about any performance aspect of an engine, except that is its displacement. 
To those who hold to that view I say congratulations, you've swallowed the Japan Inc marketing hype hook, line, and the sinker is probably poking its way out by now.
Awaken poor misguided motorcycle racing fans. If HP/cc is really your primary gauge for measuring the relative performance of an engine, I strongly suggest you start cheering for the supercharged 2 strokes and begin chiding all four-stroke engines as low-tech. I know they aren't found on street legal vehicles. Well, here's a news flash. Most folks don't race street legal vehicles. A Superbike or FX machine has little in common with a street bike and ain't none of the factory Supervikes or FX machines going to be had for anything near the paltry $31K Buell is asking for it's XBRR race ready FX machine. Period.
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Diablobrian
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 12:31 am: |
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Blake made me go back and re-read the anonymous post.
The XBRR motor is 35lbs lighter?!?!?
Even if that includes the weight of the starter that is a HUGE difference.
No wonder they have a slipper clutch in the works, the compression braking has to be viscous. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 01:26 am: |
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Actually Erik answered a question on that very topic and described the engine braking as much less severe compared to the IL4 competition, so it is something they are looking into, but not frantic about at this point. The racers will simply need to blip the throttle, like every racer prior to the past few years has done.
I agree though, the 35 LBs even if it includes the starter is HUGE. |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 01:54 am: |
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I thought of one way a Buell team of two or three bikes could do well. If they worked on drafting with each other on high banks of Daytona, they might be able to pull it off.
By themselves they won't be able to compete with the Honda, Suzuki, and Yamaha teams drafting each other.
The Daytona 200 is all about drafting. And fast pit stops.
I'm going to review all of my Daytona tapes to see if I can spot any other secrets other than the obvious things we all know. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 04:38 am: |
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Matt,
Are you really that sure about the ZTL brake inferiority? Really? I have a difficult time reconciling the successes, however limited, of Buells racing with the ZTL brake and your take on it's performance. I guess the performance in the AMA FX series will be telling. We'll see if the significantly lighter front wheel/brake is more advantageous than conventional dual disk brakes.
I'm not saying that the ZTL brake hasn't been made to work by the engineers in order to keep it on the race bike, but that it absolutely did not work for us here in the UK, and that all the people I have spoken to involved in running 'factory' Buells last year would have liked to use twin discs but couldn't.
I am not slagging Buell off here. There are plenty of very sound engineering theories that work perfectly for road use (hub centre steering is one example) but don't work as well on track. We would last around 5 laps in the UK before the brake overheated to such a degree that the brakes faded to almost nothing. At one time they got so hot that the pads started to delaminate started to seperate from the backing plate! We experimmented with various pad compounds, fluids and even disc thickness, but the simple answer was to change brakes. Fitting conventional radial mount brakes allowed our rider to brake much later with more power and control, and also lasted whole race distances no problem.
Remember the factory have access to Nissin technicians and probably Unobtanium pads that the average club/national level rider certainly doesn't.
We obviously aren't the only people who think this way. Isn't this the 2005 US Thunderbike winning bike from Innovative?
Apologies to Superbikepics for using their image. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 05:25 am: |
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Hey trojan here is a pic I found on the Millville Harley/Buell site.
Last time I saw Estok race i could swear he was running a ZTL, as was Bilanski for Hal's. I think that pic is older, but I could be (and have been) wrong. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 05:40 am: |
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The picture from Superbikepics was taken at Autobahn in September 2005. I think the pics with the ZTL brakes were taken earlier in the season before Barber.
Rich is the man who can tell us when he changed. |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 05:46 am: |
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The XBRR will be very tough to draft.
Anyone planning on being in Daytona....drop me a note with the subject DAYTONA BUELL FANS in the subject and I'll get you information on events that are forming. |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 06:29 am: |
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Right you are Trojan, Looking back at some of my pics (I was at Barber, Autobahn and the final in Daytona) I see the change. I don't have a clear pic from Daytona though.
Like I said, I could be wrong, and I was. |
Spike
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 07:11 am: |
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quote:Hey Spike.. Just curious, where did you get your power numbers?
According to Ducatis' web site, the 999R puts out 150hp at 9750rpm.
Then you say the BMW K1200S is only putting out 122hp. BMW on the other hand is claiming 167hp
Got the Ducati info here: http://www.ducati.com/bikes/my2004/ducatiModel.jhtml?modelName=999R-04
From the site: "The Testastretta engine fitted in the 999R chassis is especially designed for track use and makes 139 HP at 10.000 RPM with 11 kgm of torque at 8.000 RPM."
Got the R1200S info here: http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=2685&Page=1
From the site: "the new high-performance Boxer is said to crank out 122 hp at 8250 rpm and 83 lb-ft torque ("higher than any other bike in its class") at 6800 rpm."
I would have just pulled the R12 info from BMW's site, but for whatever reason BMW has decided not to list it on their site. Maybe they don't like it very much . . .
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Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 08:16 am: |
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Matt from Trojan, you are wrong regarding the ZTL, and now it sure is irritating to see you posting untruths. Thunderbike rules allow any brake; the Buell factory has absolutely no control over what is run there, yet the winning teams run the ZTL. I'm sure you have lots of dual disc kits in stock that make you a fine profit when you sell them to your customers. Good luck with it. But stop telling lies; you are losing credibility. |
Spike
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 08:23 am: |
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Sorry for the delayed response . . .
quote:Spike, OK the figures were slightly wrong, but the point I was making was this. The Ducati 999 has 139bhp as a stock road going bike, straight from the showroom with lights and mirrors. The Buell has 150bhp (at the crank?) in fully developed race form. A decent used Ducati 999 can be had for less than half of the cost of the XBRR and that extra money goes a long way to a hard up racer.
The Ducati and Aprilia numbers were slightly wrong, but the BMW claim was pretty far off.
I don't think anyone would argue that the 999 makes a faster racebike in stock trim. However, if you were going to race FX in the US the 999 would be a poor choice. That's the real point here- the XBRR was designed to win FX. When compared to FX bikes the specs on the RR are excellent and the price is competitive. When compared to bikes of other race classes the specs don't look so good.
quote:If Buell want to race worldwide at decent level, even in Sound of Thunder, then they will have to make more power, less weight or a new bike. This is regardless of the innovation on the XBRR.
This I don't quite understand. While the XBRR isn't ready to race Sound of Thunder, it is a nearly new bike with less weight and more power. Isn't it at least a step in the right direction for a dedicated race platform? What else would you have them do, build a Japan-Inc, water-cooled DOHC motor?
Overall, I agree with you. The XBRR doesn't meet the needs of the club racer on a budget. It remains a rather "focused" bike that will primarily be an FX bike for now. However, it's a large step in the right direction. According to claims it has more power, less weight, and more reliability than we've seen before. No air cooled mill will make the power of an equal displacement water cooled motor, but the XBRR puts us that much closer to having a competitive air-cooled powerplant. |
Skully
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 08:37 am: |
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Mike Ciccotto placed fourth in Formula Extreme in 2004 using the ZTL brake system...
Keith |
Trojan
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 08:53 am: |
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Matt from Trojan, you are wrong regarding the ZTL, and now it sure is irritating to see you posting untruths. Thunderbike rules allow any brake; the Buell factory has absolutely no control over what is run there, yet the winning teams run the ZTL. I'm sure you have lots of dual disc kits in stock that make you a fine profit when you sell them to your customers. Good luck with it. But stop telling lies; you are losing credibility.
It makes absolutely no difference to me if teams want to run drum brakes in Formula Extreme if that is what floats their boat. I also don't have lots of radial brakes in stock and don't try to push them on people, we only get them in to order and they certainly aren't part of our core business, so that doesn't hold water either. In fact we aren't even using this system this year, but a Yamaha R1 front end. If I am telling lies then why does the championship winning bike run twin discs. As far as losing credibility, does it affect Rich Cronraths credibility if he decides to run a mofified set of GSXR brakes on his FX machine? Does it affect the credibilty of Brembo, PFM, Tokico etc for manufacturing and selling traditional type disc brakes.
I am purely stating a truth on what worked for us and what didn't. Given the choice I would run carbon SICOM brakes, but don't have the budget.
I am probably one the Buells biggest fans, and always will be, but the day we are not allowed to make constructive criticism will be a very sad one indeed. |
Josh_
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:31 am: |
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To those in the horsepower fight - please make a note when you are referring to measured-Rear-Wheel-Horepower or factory-dream-at-the-crank horsepower.
It would make it easier to follow.
Thanks |
Buelldyno_guy
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 11:11 am: |
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Racing the XB chassis is not just about HP. Our retired Tube Frame S1 we ran in AFM - Open Twins (88cid) pulled about 135 at the rear wheel. Our Lap times with the XB in F4 1210-cc at about 118 RWHP are faster. The bike is faster all the way around the track. We have ran the little bike in open twins and can run in the top five and is giving away 40 hp the the two front runners.
The new lighter RR engine and and it's new found HP will allow it to run at the top anywhere it shows up. The fact that the Team will show up at the fastest track in the country makes me think they believe they can do it. ... Wasn't it a British magazine that said the XB was the best cornering bike ever??? ... Terry |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 11:13 am: |
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Hey Josh.... |
Blublak
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 12:35 pm: |
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Spike..
OK, you're talking about the R1200S .. For some reason I thought you were talking about the K1200S.. The numbers I quoted were K1200S.. My bad..
Now as for the 999R which is what you initially stated, you're not looking at the current model. If you do the math, looking at Peak Torque (in ft. Lbs)86.1 x RPM (listed for their HP figure)9750 then divide by 5252 you get - 159.83hp. Now, since PT is reached before redline, you figure some loss prior to reaching 9,750rpm and their claimed 150hp is quite reasonable, don't you think?
Of course, the whole thing is moot, since the 999R is a liquid cooled twin cylinder engine and isn't eligible for FX racing.
In Ducatis defense, to find the competition for the Buell, you'd have to look at the 749R. Once again, their website lists 121hp at 10,500rpm. So, I guess, bone stock, they are a little down on power compared to the XBRR.
As to those talking about RWHP vs. Crank.. I'm just talking about the 'factory' claims. Which, by the way is exactly what we have on the XBRR. Perhaps they are all rear wheel, perhaps they are all crank.. perhaps they are neither, but even I know how to read what the factory states for their products. I just was trying to find out where these numbers Spike was using came from.
(Message edited by BluBlak on January 26, 2006) |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 01:41 pm: |
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Dyno dude, I believe the phrase was "fastest cornering bike" referring to the XB having the highest speed at the apex.
Someone correct me please, if I'm wrong.
Rocket |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 01:46 pm: |
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Nope... It was "best cornering" in the overall article.
In the "remove the emotion" portion (which is the portion which I think has the most relevance) it scored second to the 999R but all "cornering" ratings were the same, it just lost a couple points in the "drive out" catagory. There were three bikes with a rating of ten in the corner speed catagory... Those were the 999R, XB12R and Aprilia RS125. |
650
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 02:39 pm: |
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There was a second article that measured the corner speeds of about 10 bikes as I recall and the XB12R had the highest out of the group for most of the corners. They tested it against a 749R, ZX10R, a 600cc repliracer, a supermoto bike and others. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 04:03 pm: |
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Matt,
The problem from my perspective is that we've not seen on any kind of consistent basis any of the horrible ZTL brake experiences that you experienced. Not on a 130+ RWHP Formula Xtreme bike, not on any of the class dominating Buell XB in FUSA Thunderbike, not in local club racing. No denying you experienced some trouble, no denying that at all, but to lay out the harsh accusations that you have I think is inappropriate.
I don't think you are trying to sell brake kits either. Anony got a bit emotional on that point I think.
Let's take this up again after Daytona. If the ZTL does well there, I think the debate, however relevant in the past, will become moot.
I wonder perhaps if the cooling airflow over your ZTL caliper was interrupted by a modified fender or some such obstacle thus causing the overheating problem?
I've often wondered why front brake calipers don't include cooling fins and/or ducting integral to the fender/fork-fairings to help cool them. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 04:30 pm: |
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Hi Blake,
It may well have been the twisty nature of UK circuits compared to the US equivalents. We tend to put more chicanes per lap than you have per 200 mile race I think. I do know that US teams have experienced some of the same problems that we had as well though, and that some have made the same changes that we did. We were using a carbon version of the stock front fender.
When it comes down to it, it is about what the rider is happy with and what works for the individual team. In our case it was the alternative rather than the original brakes, but we did really try to sort the ZTL first I can assure you. I will be very interested to see what happens at Daytona, and believe me, nobody would be happier with a Buell win than me.
I would also add that, if I had the budget and the opportuntiy, then I would run an XBRR in UK Sound of Thunder in preference to any other bike, regardless of where it finished.
I would think that Warrs of London will have bought an XBRR, so I look forward with interest to seeing how it fares at Cadwell Park against the Ducati 999 brigade in SOT, and will be cheering it all the way.
Now having consumed more than my fair share of Captain Morgan's finest spiced beverage, I shall curtail my Buellish rambling and perambulate myself to a more comfortable horizontal resting position
(Message edited by trojan on January 26, 2006) |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 05:07 pm: |
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Yeah... You guys have Monza and Hockenheim, we have Sears point and Road America... I suppose you have Mugello, but we have Watkins Glenn (It's really too bad they refuse to run the old GP layout though). We have Laguna, you have Donnington (brilliant work putting that tree there BTW...).
I suppose though, you have both The Ring AND the TT course... Bastards... No one over here has the balls to decide something like those should be used as race courses...
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Telewoodski
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 05:19 pm: |
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Getting back to the original post:
I keep getting images of this raucously noisy beast roaring up to Duhamel and Zemke, taking looks up the inside, and then blowing them off the track. I was at Daytona last year for the races, and it brought a real smile to my face when the Ducatis were on the track, the sound was incredible. Do you think that the riders that have the XBRR's this year are capable of giving the Honda boys a run? I think my Tivo is going to be full again this year after the AMA series is over. I still need to figure out how to get the recordings off my Tivo and onto my hard drive. This is going to be a great year indeed for couch potato racers....woohoo.....Go Buell! |
Heads
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 05:43 pm: |
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I keep getting images of this raucously noisy beast roaring up to Duhamel and Zemke, taking looks up the inside, and then blowing them off the track.
YEHA now ya talking
GO BUELL} |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 05:47 pm: |
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In my mind they're always going around the outside with one hand dragging on the ground in an upside down peace sign . |
99buellx1
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 06:50 pm: |
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quote: raucously noisy beast roaring up
Bike is only 105-db, an AMA rule.
But will be a sound like no other! |
Eeeeek
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 09:19 pm: |
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Congrats, Anony, you've summoned me.
You said "..."the Buell factory has absolutely no control over what is run there..."
I'm pulling the BS card. I know that running the ZTL front end is strongly encouraged by Buell. What I've gleaned from several teams is that if you accept money from Buell, you HAVE to run the ZTL front end. Is that true?
I'll go on record saying I'm cautiously optimistic about the RR. I've heard the lip service before, so I'll hold back on final judgement until the bike ahs at least one AMA race under its belt. I will be rooting for it.
Vik |
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