| Author |
Message |
    
Ryker77
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 08:57 pm: | 
|
medic you say it would be no fun becuase the engine is big. But then you turn around and call the engine old.
Perhaps it would be fun to beat a fancy pancy Jap bike with an big old American Muscle.
I sold a BMW r1100sa to get back in the saddle of a torque monster Buell. Only regret was loosing the Ohlins shocks.
Keep Buell American. V-twin and simple. |
Crusty
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 09:15 pm: |
|
I keep reading that the RR isn't street legal. Does anybody here really believe that Miguel DuHamel's FX Honda is street legal? Or Jason DeSalvo's Yamaha?
If Erion is bitching about the XBRR, then they must be scared of something. Maybe there's more to the "underpowered Buell that would be smoked by a Jap repli-racer" than can be read from a spec sheet.
In 45 days, we'll find out. |
Buellgirlie
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 10:05 pm: |
|
court - you're vibrant and exciting in my book 
D |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 10:25 pm: |
|
I agree with Blake's earlier statement that the displacement rules should be based upon a more dynamic rather than static view.
ie...
600cc x 17,500rpm = 10,500,000
or
1340cc x 8000rpm = 10,720,000
not too different when viewed that way. |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 10:33 pm: |
|
If the 4 valve idea worked good in HD/Buell motors seems we would be seeing a bunch of aftermarket guys jumping on it.I can onlr recall seeing one actual 4 valve conversion and it did not make any better or more power than comparable Buells. Seen any Fueling set-ups?Or whatever the other one was??
4 valves would seem to be the ticket when the rpm reaches the stratosphere--like the new Yamaha with 17,500 rpm redline,( and those smaller valves are easier to stop,start,and accelerate,so revs easier)but on a motor that is going to be less than 7000 for 99% of its life(speaking stock Buell,not RR) 2 valves seems to be ideal. |
Medic_2512
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:08 pm: |
|
Those are some good points Glitch.
As the bike is now i think with a good rider (which they have)the Buell RR will dominate the class. No questions asked.
The next question will be is it fair to race an aircooled 1400cc motor against 600cc Jap bikes.
I think 1000cc`s might be more appropiate, but we`ll see how much pressure the Japs put on the AMA and where it goes. |
Oldog
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:18 pm: |
|
AMA AMERICAN MOTORCYCLE ASSOCIATION
JMA JAPANESE MANUFACTUERS ASSOCIATION
45 DAYS?
WHAT TIME
WHAT CHANNEL
(SORRY ABOUT CAPS) |
Oldog
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:19 pm: |
|
If chuck norris was a motor cycle? |
Buellbozo
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:27 pm: |
|
He'd be a mutant Buell, and he'd be PISSED OFF!! |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 12:55 am: |
|
45 days.
Saturday March 11th.
Speed Channel.
(Message edited by jima4media on January 26, 2006) |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 01:05 am: |
|
Medic,
As in all multi-configuration racing classes, the rules evolve with the technology. If the new Buells dominate, the rules will change as they should.
I gotta give credit for the dynamic displacement comparison to Slaughter. He's a vary smart man with great objectivity from what I've seen. And a swell guy too.  But that measure of comparison is the most simple and valid one that makes sense to me. Why does it not make sense to you? Why are you entirely wrapped up in engine displacement comparisons? Why don't the greater number of cylinders, valves, and stratospherically higher rev limits give you pause as unfair advantages? I get it, it's okay to increase anything EXCEPT displacement and ignore its effect on engine performance. Hey! That's why we now have a bunch of lousy street bike engines that rev to 15K+ even 17,5K rpm but fall flat on their face below 7K rpm. Why don't they build sport cars that rev like that if the engines are so great? Answer: Because those engines SUCK in the real world, that's why. You wouldn't be able to pull away from a stop light without stalling the thing. Because there has been no wildly successful marketing campaign to fool sport car enthusiasts into believing that engine displacement is the only gage by which to measure performance. Thus we have the American muscle cars doing fine thank you.
Why are motorcycles any different?
Why the fervent insistence that displacement limits rule the day to the exclusion of all else.
Could it be... ignorance? I think so. The sport bike community has been horribly duped and I think it sucks and I think it is time for a change. You get twice the cylinders, four times the valves, twice the rev-limit, I'll take twice the displacement and that darn well is fare for now. No one was whining as long as the Buells weren't threatening. Now when they look to be competitive, the miserable whiners cry foul.
Whatever. Let them state their case on the track. Let them lose horribly and then they can cry. Then we'll talk about adjusting the rules and lowering the displacement. Sound fair? |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 01:07 am: |
|
What about "unlimited engine modifications" do folks not comprehend? Am I misquoting the rules?
quote:unlimited - adjective
1. Having no restrictions or controls: an unlimited travel ticket.
2. Having or seeming to have no boundaries; infinite: an unlimited horizon.
3. Without qualification or exception; absolute: unlimited self-confidence.
Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition
Any air-cooled, common-crank-pin, 45o, 2-valve, pushrod, V-Twin would certainly seem to qualify in my book.
(Message edited by blake on January 26, 2006) |
Chadleys1
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 01:21 am: |
|
Well stated, Blake.
I am amused at the reactions that Jima4media and other 4 zinger enthusiasts are having.
Whether we win big or not, they definitely seem to be showing a little fear at this point, and I find it refreshing. |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 05:13 am: |
|
QUESTION: how much fun is it gonna be beating up on the Japs with a motor almost 3 times the size?
ANSWER: I'll assume more than a simple soto voce' interest....I am not certain if the asker wants to know precisely how much fun or just a rough estimate of how much fun.
Frankly, a tremendous amount of fun. Racing is a very fun thing. People, generally short of cash, participate fueled primarily by passion.
Like social programs, racing's "how much is enough" finish line, in terms of cash, time and resources, seems to always move as if cash was the south pole of a magnet and "enough" the north.
The basic ingredient, I don't care if pops is loaded, you've all the time in the world, and smart as a whip, is passion. Racing is the art of not simply participating with a group of your friends who ride fast in circles, but outsmarting them all and making more circles than they in a fixed amount of time.
There are folks, myself included, who just really enjoy GOING in the circle while playing the mental equivalent of an old 8mm family movie, fantasizing about how fast I am and giggling when a peg drags. My "high point" came when I passed Roger Roezsler on his yellow S-2 on turn 3 at Heartland Park Topeka. Knowing Roger, he was likely slowing to head to the pits, but skill, luck or alignment of the planets, I'll never forget the feeling of being in that big sweeper, left peg dragging and just creeping by in time to flip the bike from left to right and take on the back to back 90o turns.
There is another group, and Erik Buell lives here, that loves to win. Wait...that's a highly inaccurate statement. Erik doesn't love to win, he loves to compete. Fair and square, he'll let you, the AMA or whoever make the rules, he'll read them, he'll study them and then he'll commit every fiber of his being and intellect into beating you. I laugh at the folks who think Buell is just "entering"; the entire concept would offend Erik Buell. Don't be mistaken, there was a bike last year, it could have been entered, it did not meet Erik's standard. Again, please realize that a 2nd place podium finish, to some folks, is a disgusting failure.
Racing, again, is an art. It's an art of passion, requiring more planning and preparation than a military campaign. The resources required to participate pale in comparison to what it takes to win.
To understand the instant case you need to recall that a young whippersnapper, who'd quite literally "sold the farm" to compete has had the rug jerked out from under him more than once before. Big people with big bucks saw him, and folks like him, coming and simply declared that the football was no longer oblong, but a perfect sphere....the next year they could change if back if the kid returned to his hole.
A dandy education is a wonderful thing. We're in a country plum chucked full of some of the greatest learning institutions in the world. Book smarts is good.
For the "big picture, however, one must come to the battle with experience.”Experience" is the art of having you ass handed to you time and time again while you are climbing the tree.
I'll be honest, most the things I've learned in my academic career I know "fairly well". But this week, I'm prepping for boards and to calculate the thickness of lead needed to shield 50g of Cesium, well I had to look. Book smarts is good.
But EXPERIENCE....now THERE'S my kinda learning. Ask Capt' Pete about the one that got away, Henrik about tossing an SV650 on the Manhattan Bridge...yes, experience arms us with facts, mental images burned into the Medulla to ensure we not make the same mistake again.
The chance of this Buell XBRR not being legal in class are precisely ZERO. That homework was done before Jon Bunne knew what the front wheel would weigh. Erik's had his ass handed to him before. This time we are not going to Daytona for a technical discussion, hoping we can get in the gate, we are going to Daytona to restore grandeur to a famous motorcycle race that's been the victim of dwindling crowds of folks bored with the buzz of bees.
The VR-1000, the moto equivalent of a camel designed by a committee of chrome and leather experts, led by neither with an ego, did little for racing but prove the value of a V-Twin coming down the front straight.
I would have stood as good a chance of winning Daytona on a Schwinn Sting-Ray, but the small group in the stands, the ones who sipped brews quietly as the buzzy bees passed, roared and rose to their feet when the VR rounded the turn onto the front straight.
Buell, and I stand ready for the warranted criticism of my eternal optimism, is on the cusp of changing Daytona.
Many of us hurt.
We hurt bad watching Erik scrape it together, get it just right and then be denied entry. It reminded me of when my stupid cousin built a Lego structure and some kid came in and kicked it.
Frankly, folks who don't even work for Buell (we've all been properly replaced by much smarter, albeit less physically stunning, folks) like Dave Gess and I will be there. I can't wait to see this. This reminds me of sneaking Mom's car away, putting on the fat tires and trying to win a plastic trophy and $25 bucks in 1970. It been years since a group of us, all in our 50's, started fighting to see a dream go round in circles fast. Finally we get to....not everyone will agree, but the passionate fans of an American Dream will love it.
We're back.
Court
Court |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 06:14 am: |
|
I don't think Honda is the main opposition anyway.
The 600 to beat is the fly-by wire R6, which is about 1 second faster around any track than its big brother, the R1.
If an XB12RR can beat an R6 this year, and I hope it does somewhere, I'll fry my wooly hat in olive oil and eat it. Garnished of course!
Rocket |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 08:05 am: |
|
Any air-cooled, common-crank-pin, 45o, 2-valve, pushrod, V-Twin would certainly seem to qualify in my book
I am going to play devils advocate, just for the sake of fun, its not ment to be mean spirited, so dont take it that way K
SO, if you look a the rules, or one in particular:
The 2005 AMA Pro Racing rule book states on page 21 under the heading of Equipment Standards--Formula Xtreme: AMA Formula Xtreme motorcycles are based on production four-stroke street motorcycles.
So we all agree, the XBRR is an extreme example of a modded XB right?
And, on page 27 of the 2005 AMA Pro Racing rule book it states: Formula Xtreme competition is restricted to motorcycles (engines and frames) produced for US street use and available in the US through retail dealers.
So, the question i have is, if this engine is not produced for the street, than how can it be legal, i understand the whole unlimited mod rule, but, and hear is the big but(at least for me) you either have to agree that its a modded production motor, or you have to agree that its ileagal for comp.
Now why bring this up, well if its a modded production motor, than by default, a buell motor is a modded sportster motor, which anyone who was around for that disscution would agree that, that statement was never agreed upon(ie pepsi)
So in the end, i suspect that one person on the board owes another a Pepsi or has to agree that the motor is illegal
So which is it????
R
Just so you know, i suspect that with what happened in the past, EB and everyone associated with this project ask questions prior to building this bike, i am for sure all the ducks were lined up, and have zero doubts that its legal, more than not, beyond legal, but brings up interesting ramifications, IE how to best think out of the box, and how to apply the rules legally
Just because you thought of an idea before the others dosent mean it illegal, it just means you beat them to the punch
Clever, very clever |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 08:37 am: |
|
Facts is facts. Bike is legal and already admitted.
Debate beyond this point is pretty much in the religion, politics and philosophy realm. |
Jon
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 09:06 am: |
|
It's against my religion to heat my hat...garnished or not! And they say English cuisine is boring...Hah!! |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 09:12 am: |
|
I am going to play devils advocate
I like that game. Let me play too.
If the mods allowed to an air cooled vtwin are unlimited, then any eninge at all is allowable.
For example, take an air cooled vtwin, and mod it by replacing it with a 1000cc IL4.
Now, thats obviously not what they intended when they wrote the rules, but that doesn't invalidate the logic of the argument. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 09:16 am: |
|
Why the fervent insistence that displacement limits rule the day to the exclusion of all else.
So we all agree, the XBRR is an extreme example of a modded XB right?
Yes.
So, the question i have is, if this engine is not produced for the street, than how can it be legal
What about "unlimited engine modifications" do folks not comprehend?
All of the XBRR is based on the XB series.
Also according to Buell, you can get all the parts from the Buell catalog at your local Buell dealer.
Try that at your local Honda dealer... |
Rubberdown
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 09:17 am: |
|
Nance, beg to differ, modification in an alteration of something already existing, not a replacement. |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 09:25 am: |
|
For example, take an air cooled vtwin, and mod it by replacing it with a 1000cc IL4.
There was a talk that once occured along these lines
IF unlimited mods are allowed, could you watercool it
IT was said in jest, but i thought it was kinda funny
Debate beyond this point is pretty much in the religion, politics and philosophy realm
And whats new???
Try that at your local Honda dealer...
Just as an FYI, there are 3 dates a year that you can buy race kit parts over the counter for the yamaha, just about everything legal you could want(it was kinda cool to look over the parts list avaliable)
Again, not ment to be mean, but it is avaliable
Not sure about Honda however
an alteration of something already existing, not a replacement
SO are the heads altered or new???
R |
Rubberdown
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 09:30 am: |
|
Appears to me the heads are part of a modified (highly) existing componet, the engine. Similar to the new pistons... |
Cataract2
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 09:33 am: |
|
Court, why aren't you on Buell's Marketing team? You have a way of getting things out in a positive light.
Anyways, I certainly would love to see this bike run and see what times if can pull. |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 09:35 am: |
|
Appears to me the heads are part of a modified (highly) existing componet, the engine
Interesting take, if the engine is considered one object, i guess your right, never really thought of it that way, guess i concentrate on the sum of the parts as aposed to the whole
Wonder if they will bolt up to a tuber
R |
Light_keeper
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:10 am: |
|
"So, the question i have is, if this engine is not produced for the street, than how can it be legal"
Of course when July comes around, all this may be a moot point. Is this or is it not a 2007 bike?  |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:13 am: |
|
>>>Court, why aren't you on Buell's Marketing team?
I'm not that up on motorcycle marketing. I am a construction worker.
|
Josh_
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:21 am: |
|
R
I think the AMA completely opened the rules up for air-cooled twins beyond the reasonable and prudent to try to bring in new competition.
I would assume (depending on Buell's success) they will restrict the rules in the future (ie specify which part(s) need to be bone stock) and somehow the new cases will need to appear on street bikes.
I am all for abusing the rules as written (any rules as written), but I don't think I would try to pass a watercooled I-4 off as a "modified" aircooled v-twin. Tho it would be funny as hell. |
Bomber
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:29 am: |
|
the engine is typically considered to be one object until or unless specific componants are called out
many drag racing classes state that the engine has to use stock head castings, for instance -- and in this case, casting if the operative word -- there's alot you can to with a casting -- give it to the good folks at any one of the shops often mentioned here, and get back a piece that'll up your horsepower and move the torque peak to exactly where you want it. you could also give it to me, and wind up with a lump that would pretty much bolt to your engine, and perhaps allow it to run, and I'll be glad to give you the 4 pounds of swarf, too. ;-}
like life, racing rules allow everything that is not proscribed
Smokey Y lives on! |
Kenb
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:39 am: |
|
I don't get it, Buell just produced a 150hp bike and is making a commitment to race in an AMA sanctioned class and still people are ragging on Buell. If you want a 20K rpm IL4 go buy one, the're readily available. |
|
XBRR Threads Consolidated Here! »