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Ryker77
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 09:41 am: | 
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The sound of a 150+hp Buell running around the track should equall about 2 new Buell owners per week.
Plus once some of the bigger bike magazines get a chance to write an article on it. Media coverage.
Alot of bike riders (non Buell) don't even know the Buell name. If they did know the Buell name they would think underpowered harley.
But now.. This XBrr will be breaking into new grounds and I see alot of potential for Buells to be sold to a wider market segment.
Plus -- well I sure hope. That in less than 2 years Buell puts this new motor minus the $$$$$$ parts onto a production bike. Sure would be awesome to buy a 1300+cc bike and put new larger 1500cc jugs on it. I like torque... |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 09:45 am: |
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"Building a racing bike around an air cooled pushrod V twin, no matter how good it is, it is not going to get you in the big league, and it's always going to be an underdog against a multi cylinder all singing and dancing power plant"
Depends on what you define as the big league. For Buell, the big league is and has been to use racing to improve the products Buell sells. The race-modified XBRR Thunderstorm engine is about 35 pounds lighter than a stock XB 12 engine, and has a torque curve that you have to ride to believe. Its bottom end lasts about 20 times longer than those of previous Buell FX engines. Buell's intent has always been to build balanced, rideable machines that an average rider can easily access, and good riders can fly on. This year, we'll see what great riders can do on one. It should be interesting. |
Tpoppa
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 10:02 am: |
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I am VERY curios to see how competitive Buell will be in FX this year. If Buell didn't expect to be competitive, I don't think there would be an XBRR. 150 hp and 100 ft/lbs is a huge amount of power, but I would be surprised if Erik would let the competition know 'exactly' what they are up against.
In addition to being a fan of Buell, I am a fan of motorcycle racing. It would be great to have an American Manufacturer become a factor in motorcycle racing. It would bring a lot of new fans (and new $$) to the sport. |
Blublak
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 10:04 am: |
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Hey Spike.. Just curious, where did you get your power numbers?
According to Ducatis' web site, the 999R puts out 150hp at 9750rpm.
Then you say the BMW K1200S is only putting out 122hp. BMW on the other hand is claiming 167hp
So, how are you getting those smaller numbers? I'm would love to know the source for when it comes to future 'confrontations' with some of my Duc and Beemer riding friends.
Then again, all of the bikes mentioned (999R, RSV, K1200S) wouldn't be in the same race classes as the XBRR since they are all liquid cooled and if they were racing they would be against the other W/C 1000cc+ bikes (or am I missing something in my reading of the rules of various classes?).
Thanks for helping me clear this stuff up.. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 10:11 am: |
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What is with these posts???
Ducati claims 139hp for the 999R, The RSV is 139hp as well. The new R1200S is only rated at 122hp. Buell's FX bikes were putting down 135hp to the wheel last year. This year they're claiming 150hp. At best the RSV and the 999R will put down equal power to the XBRR. The R1200S isn't even close.
I agree that nearly all of them could outpower the XBRR in full race trim, but what purpose do you serve in claiming that stock bikes will outpower the XBRR when all the facts indicate otherwise??
Spike, OK the figures were slightly wrong, but the point I was making was this. The Ducati 999 has 139bhp as a stock road going bike, straight from the showroom with lights and mirrors. The Buell has 150bhp (at the crank?) in fully developed race form. A decent used Ducati 999 can be had for less than half of the cost of the XBRR and that extra money goes a long way to a hard up racer.
If Buell want to race worldwide at decent level, even in Sound of Thunder, then they will have to make more power, less weight or a new bike. This is regardless of the innovation on the XBRR.
The vast majority of people racing a Buell do so at Thunderbike level or lower, and this bike is largely irrelevant to them as it stands. It is too expensive and doesn't qualify on weight or power. And as Richard rightly said, he and the other top Buell teams don't need the XBRR to compete at FX level anyway, as the bikes they build already have the power and trick parts anyway. Hal's used a 16.5" magnesium Marchesini rear wheel last year (and the year before I would think), is the new Buell wheel lighter than this? Why is it 17" when the tyre companies are concentrating all their attention on 16.5" race tyres?
Why has it still got the ZTL rotor, surely for marketing purposes only? It seems to me that this is what the marketing gurus want to use, and the engineers have had to come up with a solution to make it work at race speeds by developing the 8 piston caliper. I know from experience that the ZTL brake is not as good as twin discs for racing, and so do the top teams if they were allowed to be honest. And before we go back to a long thread about unsprung weight and rotational mass etc, it is FEEL that counts on the track and the ability to brake harder, deeper and later than the others. Why haven't Honda/Yamaha/Suzuki/Kawasaki got a version of ZTL? Because the perceived advantage doesn't outweigh the disadvantages. Changing to twin discs was the biggest performance boost we gave out XB, period.
Don't get me wrong, I like the new bike. I just can't see how it is going to attract more people onto Buell road bikes or how it is going to compete outside the USA against the established opposition.
I would rather have seen a club level bike that would have got more people racing Buells at the grass roots affordable level, and maybe support for a full on factory effort to attack Formula Extreme.
Remember, Buell sells more XBs overseas than in the US, and Formula Extreme is completely unknown and completely irrelevant to most race fans in Europe. |
Race_pirate
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 10:30 am: |
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AMA FX is a goofy set up and to me makes for crappy racing. As far as the XBRR Im excited to see a factory effort, I have been around push rod v-twins since birth and know there limitations all too well. The XBRR probably puts a solid 120-125 hp to the ground BUT the engine speed is a factor for accelaration. I think the Honda FX 600's bikes put out the same or more HP but less torque. My Buell flag will be waving high and I hope that the Buells dominate. We shall see.
I am extremely bummed to read that Rich's bike will not be at Daytona, he builds bikes with some SERIOUS horsepower.... |
Olinxb12r
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 10:49 am: |
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Ease up Mutation. Every time someone makes a comment about an I4 doesn't mean they want to go buy one, or that they are looking to be patronized by you. Obviously we are all Buell fans, or why would we be here. There are different view points than yours, and it doesn't mean they are wrong. I don't think anyone is questioning how much fun a Buell is on the street, but we are talking about the race track. At the track the I4s smoke our bikes unless we are allowed double the displacement and every other advantage possible to compete. A lot of R&D has went in to the XBRR, but the things they are inproving and fixing are not where the biggest gains can be made. Everything about a Buell is state of the art except for the engine, so why has Buell invested so much money pushing an out of date motor to its limits? Why not take some of that money and make something watercooled or truly revolutionary? |
Davegess
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 10:59 am: |
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Relevant comments from me here
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/4062/170455.html?1138199480#POST5 82774 |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:04 am: |
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As far as first steps go, this seems to be leading on the right foot.
Do ya'll really expect Buell to come out with a factory race bike like this as a first step towards racing?
I'd ya'll thought Buell would do as they have in the past, an do "nothing towards racing."
Now they come out with their first factory racer, and it's just not enough.
Buell just can't win, unless they build a bike that everyone can own and race and win every race it enters?
Come on! This is only the beginning, not the end!
The only person I can feel for is Matt.
The only thing I might change would be for Buell to have built twice as many race bike and sent half over seas, after all more Buells were sold over seas than here, so I'm pretty sure they would be appreciated over there, quite possibly more so.
My 2¢ |
Choptop
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:09 am: |
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The race-modified XBRR Thunderstorm engine is about 35 pounds lighter than a stock XB 12 engine, and has a torque curve that you have to ride to believe. Its bottom end lasts about 20 times longer than those of previous Buell FX engine
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
NICE !!!!! sounds good. I whanna ride one. |
Richardcronrath
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:25 am: |
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(Message edited by RichardCronrath on January 25, 2006) |
Rubberdown
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:32 am: |
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The XBRR's are not going to be shipped to the buyers until the day after Daytona??? This is getting interesting. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:37 am: |
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"Why not take some of that money and make something watercooled or truly revolutionary?"
Will you please explain why they SHOULD do that?
Are you familiar with the term "Le Mans"? What about "Viper" or "C5R" or "Saleen S7" or "Lister Storm"? The first two won Le Mans multiple times in a row (each) and the second two do very well in GT racing. All are pushrod V8-12 engines made by Chrysler, Chevy, Ford, Jaguar (Ford) respectively. They all do very well against the likes of Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche, Marcos... All with different engine configurations and layouts. It's not about playing some other manufacturers game. It's about playing your own game within the rules of the sanctioning body. I don't care if the Buells need 2400cc to get the correct power/weight ratio. I could care less if those little IL4's need four times as many valves to compete with the Buells.
IMO the XBRR will do well. Will it win in FX? I think at least once or twice yes. The Daytona? I think it has a shot. Anyone that makes the grid has a shot.
As far as tweaking the rules to allow parody... Take a look at the speed GT series. If you win, you add weight to your car. It keeps the racing VERY competitive. Look at Moto-GP... More than one configuration there as well. The idea that everyone has to use the same box is NASCAR thinking. •••• that.
GO BUELL!!!
And again... Thanks to Erik and the Dev team for making my request for an "RR ANYTHING!!" a reality  . I feel personally responsible  . Glad I could help . |
Honu
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:54 am: |
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Richard, A Daytona finish or podium spot would be a huge marketing tool for Buell and Harley Davidson. A series podium finish would not get the same attention from the general public.
Just about everyone has heard of Daytona, but very few has heard of any other tracks. I am speaking about the non racing motorcycle fans, for example I was at the local HOG meeting last night, about half of the people are going to Daytona this year, and half of them are going to the races.
They don't the difference between FX, Superbike, Supersport etc... But they do know that Buell will be racing at Daytona and are very excited. Maybe enough so to be potential customers! |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 11:57 am: |
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First the FX bikes get to run the Daytona 200 one of the two or 3 most famous races in the world. Now it may not be what it used to be and the AMA is trying hard to screw it up more BUT, like the Isle of Man TT, the race itself resists the best efforts of man to make it not important.
As a long running fan of the Daytona 200 going back to the days of Dick Mann, Barry Sheene, Jarno Saarinen & Gary Nixon etc, I agree with what you say Dave, and Daytona has got to be the most impressive motorsports facility that I have ever been to. The problem is that the Daytona 200 hardly gets a mention over here in Europe any more, and certainly not full back or front page news like it was in the 70's.
It will make a short article in the inside pages of the motorcycle news and if we are lucky there may be a postage stamp size photo. Unless Neil Hodgson wins the Superbike Race of course, then it will be major news. The FX race won't even warrant a mention, even if that now carries the famous 200 tag. |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 12:45 pm: |
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I can see Neil Hodgson winning the Daytona 200. His name is on the list of entrees.
I can't see Jeremy McWilliams on the podium on a XBRR. He doesn't know the track, doesn't know the bike, and the bike hasn't been tested with a full team yet. Too many things against it happening.
In order to win the Daytona 200 you need to qualify on the front two rows. By March 9th we'll know who qualifies, and who doesn't.
Benchracing is fun, but things get serious when you pull out a stopwatch. If you see a 1:42 out of a Buell, life will get interesting again.
(Message edited by jima4media on January 25, 2006) |
Revperf
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 12:59 pm: |
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I approach this subject with trepidation, but I will wade into the fray and then fade back out so as to not upset the harmonious balance that is BWB. We (Millennium Technologies) have been involved with the “RR” program, with regards to at least one aspect of it, from some of the earliest stages of power train development. I have spoken with some of the brilliant engineers face to face on several occasions as well. These guys poured their lives and balanced their careers on the success, or failure, of this program ladies and gentlemen. It brings a whole new perspective to things when you have the opportunity to briefly peer into the eyes of REALLY smart people and you see something besides REALLY smart people. You see determination bordering on viciousness. You also see a hint of naysayer weariness that they use as fuel to stoke the creative fires. Say they go to Daytona and the entire inventory of RR’s pop. SO WHAT! I submit that they will probably be fine given what I know about the internal physical attributes of “Mikey” but anything can happen. “Cup” engines with longer pushrods and bigger valves turning roughly the same rpm go 500 miles at Daytona without incident. Some, however, don’t make it. I was standing in the Erion Honda pit area last year and listened to Kevin Erion and the Honda factory lament over the fact that they were worried sick that Miguel and Jake’s bikes were not gonna make it because they were so high strung. I was also in the KWS/Millennium Suzuki pit and watched the Kawasaki’s pop on the banking. Both of them if my recollection is accurate. Racing happens. Yamaha has a brilliant effort put together this year with DiSalvo turning in some huge numbers. Great. Buell has a brilliant effort this year with some SUPERB talent riding. The Yamaha might huff 20 ft. from the box. Maybe he’ll set a track record. Maybe some of the RR technology will trickle down. Maybe it won’t. I submit that the fiscal intelligence level at Buell/H-D runs deeper than the surface of the drafting table. Dear Lord! Let these good people go to Daytona in peace. Wish them well. Hell, they’ve invited everybody. Go with them and partake in the festivities that are the culmination of blood, sweat, tears, dreams and borderline mortgage foreclosures becoming a stark reality. Who gives a shite (words of Rocket to get by the sensors) what the bike or the effort costs. How do you put a price tag on it any way? People that can buy it…. will and will not break the price structure of the parts down under a microscope and how volume buying of parts affected the bottom line or didn’t. They’ll just buy it and race it. Or not. I submit that either way, they will be glad they did. Phewww. Basta! |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 01:14 pm: |
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"It brings a whole new perspective to things when you have the opportunity to briefly peer into the eyes of REALLY smart people and you see something besides REALLY smart people. You see determination bordering on viciousness."
GO BUELL!!! |
Steve_larson
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 01:15 pm: |
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I am all in agreement with Revperf, well said.
But...
It does not appear that "everyone" agrees with the Buell even being in the class. Here is a link to the latest conversation just so this thread can see where the actual discussion about getting this bike on the track might be going...
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2006/Jan/060123c0a.htm
Steve |
Davegess
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 01:18 pm: |
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HEAR HEAR |
Richardcronrath
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 01:21 pm: |
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(Message edited by RichardCronrath on January 25, 2006) |
Gowindward
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 01:29 pm: |
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Ditto Go Buell!!!! |
Whodom
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 01:30 pm: |
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Revperf- You know, it's reading things like that that REALLY make me like Buell and want to see them exceed.
It does not appear that "everyone" agrees with the Buell even being in the class. Here is a link to the latest conversation just so this thread can see where the actual discussion about getting this bike on the track might be going...
Interesting post. Still, you have to believe that Buell was damn sure this bike would be allowed to race before they even designed it, much less committed to produce and sell 50 of them. |
Steve_larson
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 01:41 pm: |
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You know that as an owner of one of the two HD's that ever tried to race (1977 XLCR), I am all for the effort.
But all of us have spent many years in the racing world, and the rulebook is what you go by, or at least never get caught cheating on. (Remember, in racing it is only cheating if you get caught!)
So I along with everyone here HOPE that the Buell people read the rulebook and have all their "ducks in a row". But there is a very tough hurdle here that Erion (and I am sure everyone else) is going to press very hard on.
From everything I have read, and what Erion is referring to, the bike is not street legal, and there is no street version, so the XBRR and the AMA Pro Rulebook seem to be at odds with each other...? Maybe there are some other passages we don't know, but the "streetbike" part is pretty clear and obvious.
And given the amount of time and money "other" teams have in racing and trying to win this class, I doubt that they are just going to "roll over" on this one.
Let's hope Buell has this all worked out, but if not, the class could become a non-event if all the other teams decide on something as drastic as pulling out in protest...?
Steve |
Rubberdown
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 01:44 pm: |
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Again, GO BUELL! |
Davegess
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 01:49 pm: |
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THE BIKE IS CLEARLY AN XB12R THAT HAS BEEN MODIFIED OUT TO THE VERY EDGE OF THE RULE BOOK.
That said I am not an expert on the FX ruls but I think the follwoing is true:
It has the same chassis just modified. I believe the rules for pushrod twins allow you to change, pistons, rods, heads, valves, crankcase has virtully unlimited modification allowed, clynders can be changed, forks, shocks tires, wheels etc.
Isn't this the class that allows full on 250cc bike to race? |
Steve_larson
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 01:53 pm: |
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And so here is where I will leave the discussion to those who "know" that answer, I sure don't...
Steve |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 02:03 pm: |
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I don't know the answer either, but everyone that's been watching and or racing for a long time knows that there are ways to "skirt" the production based rules. The most common one is promising to sell the requisite number as street machines. I see that happening. |
Buellerx
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 02:16 pm: |
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Take the Poll
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/getVote.jsp?pn=buell0123
Interesting Results. The Japs do a great job of marketing their propaganda. Most people think that no matter what Buell or anyone else does, Japan cant lose.
I think Honda is afraid and is setting the stage to say that if Buell wins, it is not legitimate because they cheated |
Rageonthedl
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 02:27 pm: |
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yeah my local "Sportbike" Fourm just posted this...
Dueling Boilerplate: Is The Buell XBRR Legal In AMA Formula Extreme?
undeniable fact: there is no such animal as an XBRR streetbike
by dean adams www.amasuperbike.com
Wednesday, January 25, 2006
The 2007 Buell XBRR which debuted this week is an interesting bike, no doubt, and signals a serious intent by Buell to become competitive in racing. It is assumed that this long-rumored model will be Buell's entry into the 2006 Formula Extreme class— (it's nearly the biggest rumor in racing that Buell has Jeremy McWilliams, Pascal Picotte and Mike Ciccotto lined up to race this motorcycle in Formula Extreme).
However, the boilerplate attached to the press release announcing the XBRR and the AMA Pro Racing rule book would seem to be at odds.
The 2005 AMA Pro Racing rule book states on page 21 under the heading of Equipment Standards--Formula Xtreme: AMA Formula Xtreme motorcycles are based on production four-stroke street motorcycles.
And, on page 27 of the 2005 AMA Pro Racing rule book it states: Formula Xtreme competition is restricted to motorcycles (engines and frames) produced for US street use and available in the US through retail dealers.
Buell PR says that the XBRR is "a modified XB engine and chassis".
There is no such animal as an XBRR streetbike.
Clearly, to race Formula Extreme in 2005, a motorcycle needed to start life as a production street model.
For example, when Jake Zemke's Honda Formula Extreme bike goes to the grid, it is clearly based on the CBR600RR streetbike.
However, on the bottom of the press release announcing the new Buell, the following is stated, "It is illegal for anyone to ride this motorcycle on public roads. The Buell XBRR motorcycle does not meet NHTSA or EPA regulations for on road use. This motorcycle may only be used on closed courses."
The Buell press release infers that this XBRR is a new model, "a limited-edition production racing motorcycle designed exclusively for closed course competition". Using the phrase "designed exclusively" in this context would seem to mean this is not a hopped-up machine based on a production streetbike. Buell PR says that the XBRR is "a modified XB engine and chassis".
There is no such animal as an XBRR streetbike.
Erion Racing's Kevin Erion had a copy of the 2006 AMA Pro Racing rule book and said both passages noted above read virtually the same in the 2006 editon.
Erion, whose two riders, Aaron Gobert and Josh Hayes, will race the Formula Extreme class in 2006, was disturbed that the Buell XBRR may be raced in Formula Extreme, "Based on the language in Buell's press release, their bike is not legal for the Formula Extreme class. The rule book states two times that motorcycles for the FX class are based on production street motorcycles; it's like the first sentence," Erion said.
If the new Buell is legal for Formula Extreme, it may fundamentaly change the class. Previously a Formula Extreme racer had to start life as a production streetbike. Now, if the new Buell is legal, it's a sign to the other manufacturers that they can assemble 50 lot kit bikes—for which there is no clearly discernable production streetbike—to race Formula Xtreme. For example, what's to stop Ducati from building a short production run, "designed exclusively", Franken-racer consistening of a 999R or 749 chassis powered by their 1000cc air-cooled, four-valve engine, to race the Daytona 200 with?
AMA Pro Racing sources said this week that based on the fact that the rules for an air-cooled Twin in Formula Extreme are so wide, and allow for so many modifications, that it is their belief that the XBRR is legal for the Formula Extreme class. |
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