| Author | Message | ||
     1125rr |
Spoke with St. Paul HD this weekend, Apparently all out of belts for 1125R/CR (and possibly other Buells as well). Told me they were on backorder for 1.5 months, not sure if its a production issue because the factory is shut down or what. Said even aftermarket sources haven't been promising, not finding anything else that uses that tooth count, width, etc. So anyone's guess when they'll be available again. Anyone happen to have a new one laying around that they'd like to sell? The one on my bike is cracked and has 12k on it, probably original 2009. Bought the bike in fall and was looking at ordering one a few weeks ago, they were even on sale at StP HD...but I guess not anymore. Thanks! | ||
| _buelligan_ |
Harley has them on backorder till May 11th on one of the belts and May 15th for the other, they should be available after those dates but with everything going on right now thats no guarantee. I haven't heard anything of belt production issues and haven't ever really seen any aftermarket belts for the 1125's, the belts I believe are made by Gates in the USA but not sure where their plants are, looks like most are in the midwest area from their career page, only harley plant I know of thats shut down right now is new york but they're mostly engine/transmission machinery production I believe, but all remaining Buell parts will be sold to Vintage Parts Inc to liquidate after this summer so better grab what you can get now. | ||
| 1125rr |
Thanks for the insight. I'm curious what your source is for this. I was initially a little hesitant before buying an 1125 because of parts, but Lance assured me that there were 6,000 of these made, and if at any point Harley cut off production of wearables like belts, that someone would pick up the slack by approaching Gates or some belt mfr and have some made up. So, in the longer term I'm not too concerned, I do think someone would step in (if nobody else did I might be willing to do it myself) to supply the market. If I had any concerns it could be because of the world supply chain issues at present, and it isn't implausible that the better part of a summer could pass or some such scenario before supplies were met. But thanks, I can probably wait another month, but as you noted...who knows, a month could easily turn into two+ which is halfway through summer already... Thanks I'll be patient for now. | ||
| 1125rr |
Also, I know someone who works with enormous (Fortune 500 level) OEM supplier (THK Rhythm) of steering and suspension parts, and they are effectively completely shut down right now. A few critical lines running but that is all. I just visited the Gates website to see what they were doing and their statement is vague. States they will try to remain open but are subject to other forces... Dropped them an email to ask if they're operating the plant making these belts. Statements dated from March 26 and 27: https://www.gates.com/us/en/about-us/coronavirus.h tml https://www.gates.com/content/dam/gates/home/about -us/customer-supplier-letter-global.pdf I guess it's a be patient and see situation. | ||
| Chazaag |
A ton of the parts are over at Vintage right now..... I wouldn't;t be too concerned about that... Id be concerned when HD stops making us all new parts.... | ||
| _buelligan_ |
I work at an H-D/Buell dealer, once harley is done producing items they send them to vintage parts inc to sell off the remaining inventory. They will still be available to order from any HD dealer but once they are at Vintage Parts that is the last of the last of said items. I believe it was summer 2017 the motor company sent every dealer a letter informing them to take down all remaining Buell signage and let everyone know that summer 2020 was the deadline for any parts still in production. If they had no intentions of producing that belt anymore they would just change the status to obsolete but instead they have a backorder date because they are being made but obviously with whats going on there will be a wait, there are a lot of items going on backorder due to production/material availability not just Buell. If someone does pick up after Harley stops making those belts it would probably be Twin Motorcycles in the Netherlands. | ||
| 1125rr |
Thanks for the info. Gates responded to my email stating that the plant is still operational (assuming supply chains are still supplying them). They also noted that they do not sell those belts to customers as they are proprietary to HD. Which had me thinking about what HD does when they cease production--do they open-source the patents, or do they stop production, then limit other's ability to pick up that slack. Intellectual property is a huge issue in corporate America these days; Tesla famously released all of its data to the public as it was in the public's best interest, while it seems the standard corporate stance is to withhold everything at all cost. So interesting to see where HD falls on that, they famously sued S&S who probably kept their bikes on the road for years...if that is any indication. That said, germane to the belts in specific: In this day and age it isn't too hard for a belt company to whip up a solid belt from scratch. Tooling or some such thing may be a limiting factor, I don't know the particulars. But Drag Specialties is kind of the obvious choice since they already make HD belts, so could probably use the same supplier and have some 1125 belts whipped up. I do assume that someone would fill the market if/when HD doesn't, but again, how much lag would happen in there is the question...could we go a half summer or longer without belts before they came available? That seems plausible. And are we going to be charged $300 for a new belt with currency fluctuations and shipping from the Netherlands? I have no idea the distribution of these bikes but most such vehicles are sold in the states. Maybe the simple answer is for HD to formally allow St. Paul HD to take up production and make them the official unofficial Buell distributor(?). Ideally someone would be coordinating with HD right now to transition to new supplies. (hint(!)) Seriously, maybe this thread could help facilitate that...maybe it should be transferred to the main forum(?). I've also rethought that presumption that there are plenty of these bikes in the world to justify belt production. When shopping I noticed how many I've seen in the market with like 700, or 1k, or 3k miles on them. Contrast that with Japanese sportbikes where in warm climates it's not uncommon to see 80k on them. If we assume that of the 6,000 1125Rs, some are out of service for some reason, and others are mothballed, I'm totally guessing here, but it could take a chunk out of the bikes which are actually ridden at all. Then we can guess how much are the remaining bikes are ridden...There may not be a huge demand for belts, especially CR belts. St. Paul HD told me that they've sold about 40 1125R belts in 2019. My layperson guess is that that is about right to justify a production run. If we figure $100 per belt wholesale, and 100 belts per run, that's still only a $10,000 investment to justify design, tooling etc, and takes a year or two to recoup. Seem plausible for a R, but half the number of CRs were produced...and that can seem pretty tight to justify investing in that, holding all of that capital in inventory, etc. If it is HD doing it or Gates by permission of HD doing it, then they are all set up already, very low fixed cost, and production is almost pure profit. And I can guess there are companies out there (maybe foreign) who make timing belts and whatnot, who would offer to make belts for any application, but it is anyone's guess if those belts will work well with 150hp pulsing though them, 150mph heat buildup, etc. So, a lot to consider. If anyone is out there with connections to The Motor Co, and you cared to chime in to assure us that this is happening seamlessly, or remind HD that it could be nice to permit Gates to produce belts for any buyer after HD ceases production--please oil this supply belt. Or, wait...uh, no maintenance required for belts... hmmmm, is it oil this supply chain, then? Whatever...you know what I'm saying.  | ||
| Loose1 |
You can buy a belt for any buell or different tooth counts that are stronger than oem and cheaper from Belt Drive ltd. I have one of their carbon fiber belts on my xb. I've had it on for years with no problems. I have a custom swing arm so I needed a different tooth count. Matt http://www.bdl-sales.com/Replacement-Rear-Drive-Be lts_c_27.html | ||
| 1125rr |
Thanks Loose1. I've never found an aftermarket 1125R belt. Have those ever been done? I thought I may have seen something on Parts Unlimited or another site but nothing currently available when I searched. I did call Belt Drive and they confirmed they do NOT carry a 145T 1 1/8" 14mm belt for the 1125R (or CR for that matter). The guy at Belt Drive also confirmed (interestingly down to the dollar I totally guessed) that a mold costs about $10k (what I meant by tooling) and that Gates usually requires about $40k in an order to make it worth their time to produce, making it a $50k proposition to make a run of a totally new belt from scratch. These are general and rough numbers, unsure if they're even retail numbers or wholesale. He said that one of two scenarios are at play: HD owns either just the chemical makeup of the belts (rubber, cords, etc.) -or- both the mold and chemical makeup of the belts. If it just the chemical makeup (rubber, chords, etc.) which is proprietary, he said that Gates could spin them out a production run using the Belt Drive concoction and they could easily take up the sale of 1125R belts. If, of course, the numbers worked out (not sure the minimum order on a belt if they already have molds). If HD holds the patent on Both the mold and chemical formula for the belts, then they are in that boat of spending $50k on a whole new setup. Pretty much as I had imagined. He offered to contact Gates to see which scenario was at hand, and would get back to me mid next week. I asked him to ask Harley if they would release the patent on the belts if they ceased production, and he said he would make a note of that for the industry insiders to discuss. He also told me that the same thing arose with Victory, where some molds are owned by Victory and some aren't. So some belts aren't available apparently, but Belt Drive did basically become the source of Victory belts now. He said Belt Drive is the only go-to belt place for everything. So I guess this is a wait and see next week situation. Again, maybe this discussion is even prompting action to get the ball rolling for someone to take up production if/when Harley stops. Belt Drive is apparently the obvious choice to take up production, if they can't do it, it may be impossible. And that may hinge on Harley releasing patent on the mold or not. Also asked Gates what specifically Harley owns, waiting to hear back if they're allowed specify what is owned. And lastly, buelligan: I looked online to see if TWIN Motorcycles is still selling them, and they list them still, but they cost like $265 plus shipping, so again, my guess was about right, $300 shipped. IF they have them over there in stock or whatever...or are also on backorder I don't know. Thanks for all of this info, guys. Piecing it together and figuring this out. | ||
| Cvc |
What is the tooth count you are looking for? I have a belt from an 1125 I think , it came with a swing arm looks good but unknown miles. Can contact me by phone 360-601-0597 might be a good backup until new is available. | ||
| _buelligan_ |
Just got off the phone with Harley and it appears those belts are in stock at the warehouse and one of them has another shipment on the way. | ||
| 1125rr |
Thanks guys. I did find them at the dealer, preordered them and they just came in. Also, still waiting for word from Belt Drive Inc on whether or not there is a plan for someone to produce them (he did check in last week and said he was still waiting for the owner of the company to figure this out). As an aside, they seem like a great company to deal with in any regard. (Message edited by 1125Rr on May 04, 2020) |
