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Buell Forum » THUMPer Forum » Buell Blast Thumper Knowledge Vault » Engine - all topics related to the Motor » BLAST SPECIFICS - procedures, and ideas on assisting procedures » Primary Chain Adjustment/Primary Trouble shooting » Primary Clacking at idle - even warm » Archive through January 08, 2008 « Previous Next »

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Ezblast
Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 02:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Adjust your primary first - then if it still does it - get back to us.
GT - JBOTDS! EZ
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Swampy
Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 09:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

You may have a loose engine sprocket nut.

Don't wait to diagnose the problem as you could be wearing away the crank spline!
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Gearheaderiko
Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 09:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Concur with EZ!
Oil pump drive gear going bad could be noisy.
The drive belt and brake rotors can also make the wind up toy noise (if I have it right). It would be most unusual for you to just start noticing them though.

As crazy as it may sound, sometimes you do just start to hear different engine noises. The engine seems to run differently at times (better, worse or different). You get more in tune to it. Its a strange anomaly, but it happens. Sometimes nothing is wrong at all.

The engine is also more broken in now, so it may sound different.
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Jimrich
Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 12:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Concur with EZ & Gearhead.

Have you changed your gear oil in your primary? I noticed when I did mine for the first time my primary seemed a measurable amount quieter.

--jim
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Toniportray
Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 04:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

So here's a quick update. I adjusted the clutch tension by removing the cover under the left footpeg and doing all that. Turned it 'till the hex piece was loose, then turned the adjustment screw 1/2 a turn more so it was snug. Put the cover and stuff back on, adjusted the tension from the left hand clutch lever, and then fiddled with the chain limiting screw. The spacer hasn't been touched since purchase and the bike now has 7200 miles. It's about time... I set the screw and tightened the jam nut to where the "whirring" noise just abates. If I turn it a smidge further (and I mean a smidge, like 3/4 turn), I get a massive "clack" noise coming from the tranny casing. The clack noise follows the engine rpm speed, but it's clearly seperate from the other noise I'm hearing and trying to resolve. It's like one of those wind up toy sounds if you turn the wind up knob forward, making the clicking noises go faster. I usually don't hear the noise unless I'm really moving along. It can be heard at idle, but it's really "grindy" and rapid on the freeway. Obviously, I'm attempting to minimize the bike usage until I fix this issue. I suspect a loose nut inside the primary, as I've read amongst the forums. I'll attempt to get it apart and see what I find.
Oh, almost forgot. After adjusting the primary (the screw is now in much farther than it was when the spacer was in), the bike struggles to get up to high speeds. It really lags to get up to 60+, and I have to hold the throttles much more open than normal. Problem is, if I turn the primary screw in more, it whirrs a lot. If I remove it out further, I get a really nasty clack noise. Seems I'm stuck either way.. I'm guessing there's gotta be something wrong on the inside. Sound right? Any predictions?

One more thing I almost forgot. I'm pretty sure the gear oil level is right. The oil in there was replaced 2000 miles ago and it's already turned to a mid-grey color. It was previously green. Is it due for replacement again or does it normally change color that fast?
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Gearheaderiko
Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 05:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"The spacer hasn't been touched since purchase and the bike now has 7200 miles."
Thats about 6200 miles beyond recomended adjustment and that was the main source of your noise. I suspect from flopping around that the shoe is bad or other parts are now loose.

Struggling to get up to 60 is a sign of a much too tight primary.

"Turned it 'till the hex piece was loose, then turned the adjustment screw 1/2 a turn more so it was snug." Doesnt sound like you've adjusted it properly. Takes a lighter touch.
Sounds like you'll probably be pulling the primary cover off soon, anyway.


Not to fault your progress, but practice makes perfect. You'll be an expert when you're done!
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Gearheaderiko
Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 05:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Oil level is fine and anyway you'll be dumping it soon too.

And the chain adjusting screw does, after 7200 miles, turn quite a bit in on a first adjustment that late. Its also fairly common for bikes that have been in for 'service' to still have that spacer. Sad.
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Ezblast
Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 01:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

change it!

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Toniportray
Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 08:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

OMFG... This has been the worst project ever. Trying to get the primary cover off has been true hell. The biggest problem is the *expletive* drain screw would not come out all the way because the *expletive* exhaust was in the way; so the damn thing was draining at a rate that would take a week for the oil to get out. *sigh*. My back hurts, the *expletive* birds crapped on me twice while I was working, and oil is everywhere...

Because the freakin' drain screw wouldn't come out, I had to open the case and try to do so slowly to get the oil to drain out where I had my oil pans. Well, it didn't work and there's a hell of a mess outside.
The splined collar wouldn't come off until I smashed it in two with a hammer.. To top it off, God decides to get one last laugh at me by sending me the fog of death. At 4:15, this massive, freakin' cold fog comes in with screaming winds and I'm suddenly living in Alaska trying to get this cover off as I'm freezing my ass off. If it's one thing I hate about the bay area here in Northern California, it's the freakin' fog. Nonstop, especially in the winter..

I swear.. God must have it out for me. Nothing went right today. A simple job that should have been clean and fast took me about 2 hours. 'Course I had already spent another 2 hours just working on my Yamaha so the temper was short as it was. It's a good thing I don't have a wife because I'd be beating her right now...

I realize now that my oil level was way too high because I didn't drain it right last time. That may contribute to many of my bike problems. I ended up adding an entire bottle of gear oil when in fact the other oil wasn't fully drained. I've put off this project until tomorrow. I'm hungry, I've got bird crap in my hair, my back hurts, and I've got a big mess to clean up tomorrow. Damn..
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Swampy
Posted on Saturday, November 17, 2007 - 09:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

It is possible to remove the drain screw with out removing the exhaust, it is very tricky!

Here is an Idea, take the exhaust off then, with a hammer have your way with it untill there is enough room to get the plug out the next time. Sweet revenge~
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Buellistic
Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 08:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

This worked on TUBE FRAME BUELLs with a OEM Muffler and it will work on the BLAST OEM Muffler !!!
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Toniportray
Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 03:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Well I'm rather lost right now. I'm confused about some of the terminology used throughout the forum and I'm stumped as to what to do now that I've got the primary cover off. I'll post some pictures for clarification, but also to help anyone else who might be wondering what the guts of the primary look like. Maybe people can refer to the images to help make clear what everything is and what to adjust/check.

Primary Cover

So this is my primary cover. I read in another post that the webbing isn't supposed to look like this. It's a sign that something has been eating into it. I can't tell whether this is normal or not though becuase it is so smooth and looks normal (which is obvious if something really were cutting into the webbing since it would have this uniform appearance). It doesn't look like the chain could have eaten into the webbing, nor is there anything that I can determine to be sticking out that might be responsible for this. The chain looks completely fine and doesn't show any signs of wear. The Shoe also looks fine, even good as new (course I don't know what to base my perception on since I've never seen another shoe). I can't find anything that appears loose or otherwise out of order.

Front

It has been suggested to check for a loose compensator nut. Problem is, single cylinders don't have compensator nuts right? Isn't a compensator nut by definition only found on engines with more than one cylinder? What then do I check? Is the "compensator nut" the same thing as the big hex nut in the center of the front sprocket? The back sprocket is the clutch so I wouldn't imagine this "compensator nut" has anything to do with that. Do I just tighten this front nut down? It's not currently loose to the touch, nor does it move much with a wrench, but I suppose it could be "looser" than it needs to be. Is this what I should check? What else should I check? I could see how if this front sprocket were sticking out too much (toward the cover) how it could be making the noise and causing bad performance.

Finally, should I attempt to get the clutch off (not sure how) and see if anything behind it needs to be adjusted/checked. If so, what? Once again, I sincerely appreciate the feedback and assistance of this forum. I always try to help other people once I've resolved an issue I've had in the past, and I'm glad communities like this exist to help people successfully investigate new territories of motorcycle maintainance and repair. I've never done anything with the transmission so this is completely unknown land for me. Thanks ahead for all the help!
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Swampy
Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 06:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

How is the guide on the top of the primary cover look?
The front sprocket nut is what needs to be torqued to I think 190 or so foot pounds, check in the service manual(I'm not home right now) If the front nut has been running loose you can wear out the spline on the crankshaft and that might be the cause of the clacking. The clutch hub nut is under the adjuster and bearing in the center of the clutch. That part removes by a snap ring. It is a left handed nut and torques to 90 foot pounds or so(again I am not home)

If your front sprocket was really loose (nut off) you would see a circular grinding pattern in the primary cover.

(Message edited by swampy on November 22, 2007)
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Gearheaderiko
Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 12:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

If something were cutting into the primary it wouldnt have a smooth appearance.It would show grooving.

Compensator nut would be the wrong terminology but means the same thing as the big hex nut in the center of the front sprocket. Loose would mean loose, not torqued to 100ftlbs instead of 190ftlbs. Its very tight, so putting on a wrench and seeing if it moves would tell you if it was loose.

Shoe looks normal as well does the top guide (from the picture).

Were there any shavings or loose pieces of metal in the cover/primary housing when you took it off?

Check for looseness of the bolts you can get to under the cover. Should be easy to tell just by putting a wrench or socket and giving a turn. Tight is tight, if it doesnt move readily, dont force it, just check for looseness.

EZ and Swampy seem to have the most recent experience under the primary cover.
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Ezblast
Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 01:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Any chunks?
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Toniportray
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 06:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

"If the front nut has been running loose you can wear out the spline on the crankshaft and that might be the cause of the clacking. " This is exactly what I am suspecting is making the sound. It sounds like a small gear somehow loosely grinding into the teeth of another gear. It's not anything as bad the sound you get when you change gears and the clutch isn't all the way in. It's just a "wind-up toy" gear noise that runs along in perfect synchrony to what the engine is rotating at. Hence, I suspect it's coming from that front gear, and not something in the rear that would be dependent upon the rear wheel movement. 'Course the problem wouldn't be the front gear itself, but rather the spline or something else further inside. I have yet to see any chunks or slivers of metal (or anything for that matter) in the oil or anywhere in the primary. Everything looks clean. I hope it's just a loose engine nut that hasn't resulted in extensive damage to the spline gear thingy. I should be in there tomorrow so I'll share what I discover.
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Toniportray
Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 08:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Okay... Who's on steroids here.. I cannot for the life of me get that engine sprocket nut off.. I've got a two foot breaker bar, and I can't get the nut to move a millimeter in either direction. And I'm not some skinny poosy boy either. I'm 180 lbs of weight lifting sex machine. I don't see any locktite anywhere and I'm 98% certain this is the first time this case has ever been opened. My impact driver won't even turn a pinch. Any advice?
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Gearheaderiko
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 12:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

2ft breaker isnt enough. Add some pipe to it (2ft).
Only a really good impact driver will take it off.

It should be noted that although I've taken a few off, its been awhile. I dont remember exactly how I locked the engine up (or I probably used an impact driver), so I'd take the advice from someone whose taken one off more recently. I'd hate for you to break something!
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Gearheaderiko
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 12:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

PS Obviously,at this point, you know the nut wasnt loose!
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Ezblast
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 12:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Concur on the cheater pipe!
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Toniportray
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 06:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Yes, I've determined that indeed the engine nut was not loose. I have noticed however that the shift shaft that connects to the foot shift lever is kinda floppy. It jiggles. I've read about this in other areas of the forums and I think I've figured out how to fix that. Whether that is my real problem, I don't know. My current dilemma is that I just spent a bunch of money at Harbor Freight for large sockets since I didn't have the right socket size to get the clutch assembly out. Bad part is the darn sockets don't fit into the pit of the clutch center where the nut is. The sockets are too wide in diameter. Damnit. Back up to Santa Rosa to get my money back from Harbor Freight. I bought a big set of large sprockets because I don't know what size fits on the clutch nut. I've checked all over the site, and all I've found is someone's M2 used a 1-3/8 on the clutch nut. I have a 1-1/8 that got the front engine sprocket nut off, but the clutch nut is apparantly larger than this. Anyone know exactly what size it is? I successfully removed the front nut by standing on the bar when tilted at a 60 degree angle. Took a while to finally get it to budge. Turns out the towel method worked better for getting the nut off than the metal piece-in-the-teeth. I think the towel in the gears method gave a softer, gradual, force. That's how my Buell likes it.

So does anyone know what socket size I need for the clutch nut? I have to figure out where else to shop now that the Harbor brand has too large a diameter. Guess it's time to go get reamed by the HomoDepot.
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Toniportray
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 06:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Ah yes, another question. I've read that it's possible that the clutch nut actually comes out backwards, meaning that to remove it, one must turn the nut clockwise to get it to come out. Is this correct? The front engine nut came out normal (counter-clockwise), but does the back nut come out through reverse motion? I don't wanna trash the nut or thread by forcing it in the wrong direction.
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Gearheaderiko
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 07:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Clutch nut is left hand thread(wrong handed, backwards threaded). Tighten to loosen-opposite of the front engine nut.

Shifter shaft will jiggle without the primary cover on. Primary cover holds the support bushing for the other end of the shaft.Primary cover bushing usually takes the most abuse.
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Toniportray
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 07:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Know the socket size by chance?
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Swampy
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 08:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

30 MM, Deepwell. I used an axle nut socket for GM front wheel drive vehicles.

You have to have the locking bar to remove the front sprocket nut. Using a rattle gun is bad Mojo on the stator hub magnets!

The locking bar size is somewhere in the Badweb I remember putting it on here somewhere, but with the cold I have right now I don't think I could survive another trip to the garage. Also its snowing out the wife is bitching and my head is aching, give a guy a break.
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Ezblast
Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 09:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The length is 4-1/8", 4" will work too I think. The width is a nominal value, there is about an inch or less or bearing area but the bar can be much wider.
1 1/8 deep & 1 3/16 deep sockets
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Toniportray
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2008 - 05:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The latest and not so greatest:

Extensive work has revealed that I can't seem to find anything wrong inside the primary area of this bike. Everything is as it should be. However, the problem still remains and I'm truly perplexed. I haven't checked behind the stator of the alternator as I didn't want to take any of that apart. It makes sense that since the engine sprocket nut wasn't loose in any way that anything behind it leading up to the crankshaft should be just fine since it hasn't been ever tampered with since purchase 7k miles ago.

There is a little bit of wear on the rear sprocket where the small gear leading to the transmission contacts the rear clutch gear apparatus, but I'm convinced that it has nothing to do with my problems. My main issue is that I can't figure out what is causing this noise coming from the front end. It sounds like a ratchet spinning or a wind-up gear toy and it runs right along with the engine RPM's in any gear position including neutral. Should I actually take off the stator coil assembly and somehow get back into the crankshaft? I assume it's not necessary since the engine nut was not loose at all and hasn't been modified ever since birth.

I can't find my pictures right now, but sometime I'll post the details of what the Blast primary looks like with things on and off. Here are my remaining theories on this matter and the progress I've made: I suspect the inability to get above 50-60mph was because the primary had way too much oil in it (my fault for being naive previously) and possibly could have been compounded by the fact that the primary tightening hasn't been touched since birth, despite having had many tune ups performed on this bike. Hence, why I am starting to do all this myself to make sure things get done right. I think my timing light adjustment will help as well on this matter. Some carb cleaning/adjusting and modifications to the air system (removing the vent thing into the airbox) got rid of the significant stalling problems. I'm very happy about that. However, I still can't find the source of this "spinning ratchet" noise that is quite loud.

Do I really need to go deeper past the rotor for further inspections or is it a safe bet that everything back there should be fine considering the engine sprocket nut was as it should have been? Any other thoughts?
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Gearheaderiko
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2008 - 09:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Well, the whirring sound could be the rotor magnets rubbing on the stator of the stator bolts came loose or it came apart.

It could be your front brake rotor. That will make a whirring sound, depending on the brake pads.

It could also be a normal sound you're hearing. Have you had any other Blast riders listen to it?
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Buellistic
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2008 - 10:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

adjust your primary chain TOO TIGHT and you get self destruction !!!
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Luckyduck
Posted on Tuesday, January 08, 2008 - 11:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I have to agree with Buellistic on that one. Running it 1/8" out from the lightest touch seems to treat me right. That is about 1.5 turns of the screw. I also replaced the shoes, spring and pin on the primary chain, and did the clutch adjust. It quieted the bike a lot, although you can still hear a faint noise (not clacking, more like oil and chain moving sounds) at idle. Check out the "Adjust your primary" thread here http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/20164/243953.html?1196478889

Good luck and pm me if you want the name of someone who is a good mechanic is SR, or maybe call EZ, he isn't far away.

Paul

(Message edited by luckyduck on January 08, 2008)
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